Hull's 119.5mph Slapshot A Myth

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Canadiens1958

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58" Stick

By today's game conditions you are correct. However in 1965's longer-shift, less intense, slower pace, more open game, Chara would've had the time to wind-up a big slapper every now and then.

Chara slap shot + goalie with no head protection = not good.

Factor that in 1965 Chara would be limited to a 58" stick, not benefiting from a height adjustment like today and the only concern would be Chara whiffing.
 

Hanji

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Factor that in 1965 Chara would be limited to a 58" stick, not benefiting from a height adjustment like today and the only concern would be Chara whiffing.

A 58" stick is immaterial and not part of the original discussion. You even stated as such in this post:
So give him all the modern equipment and rule advantages the weaknesses remain the same. If anything they are masked a bit by a "test number" that is not supported by game results like Bobby Hull's "test number" was.

Fact: Chara, as is, would be risking the lives of goaltenders in 1965.
 

Hanji

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^^^ Quote my posts completely and accurately or not at all.

Sorry, I'm not falling for diversion tactics.

Chara, given 1965's vastly slower pace and open game, would've been able to get off a wind-up 'test slapper' every now and again.

If 1960's goaltenders were supposedly scared of Hulls shot, they wouldn't been terrified of Chara's (2013 equipment) shot.
 
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DisgruntledGoat*

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People realize that Al Macinnis was sub-200 pounds, used a wood stick, and could shoot at least as hard as Chara, right?
 

pappyline

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People realize that Al Macinnis was sub-200 pounds, used a wood stick, and could shoot at least as hard as Chara, right?
Right on. same with Hull. He was under 200 LBS, used a wood stick and could shoot at least as hard as Chara.

Now all you people who are dumping on Lloyd Percival. The guy was a reputable hockey guy, away ahead of his time. He reported what he measured. Now you can argue that he used a different methodology, which is fine. But to suggest he falsified results is nonsense, He certainly never envisioned that a bunch of know it alls in 2013 would be debating his analysis.

Anyways, Hull had a helluva shot. Anybody who saw him play knows that.
 

Hanji

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Right on. same with Hull. He was under 200 LBS, used a wood stick and could shoot at least as hard as Chara.

Now all you people who are dumping on Lloyd Percival. The guy was a reputable hockey guy, away ahead of his time. He reported what he measured. Now you can argue that he used a different methodology, which is fine. But to suggest he falsified results is nonsense, He certainly never envisioned that a bunch of know it alls in 2013 would be debating his analysis.

Anyways, Hull had a helluva shot. Anybody who saw him play knows that.


No, Percival's numbers are 100% flawed.
No correct methodology, or measurement system validates a 114 mph wrist shot. There's no way, whatsoever, this can be accomplished, nor can a 95mph backhand.

I'm all for giving past player's their due, but claiming Hull, Beleveau, Howe had 105-118 mph shots is about as ridiculous as today's kids saying 1950s players were all AHL level. MOD
 
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Killion

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Right on. same with Hull. He was under 200 LBS, used a wood stick and could shoot at least as hard as Chara. Now all you people who are dumping on Lloyd Percival. The guy was a reputable hockey guy, away ahead of his time. He reported what he measured. Now you can argue that he used a different methodology, which is fine. But to suggest he falsified results is nonsense, He certainly never envisioned that a bunch of know it alls in 2013 would be debating his analysis.... Anyways, Hull had a helluva shot. Anybody who saw him play knows that.

Absolutely.... unfortunately we dont know exactly what kind of equipment Percival was using back in 68, and I dont think theres much debate or question that advances, as in serious advances in radar, measuring speeds have been rather substantial over the past 3-4 decades. At that time, whatever he was using, however he had it set-up, whether or not the players were in motion or stationary, well, just no idea. Quite certain however he didnt "falsify" his findings. Absolutely no reason to do so. Technologically however, I think its safe to say that his equipment was fairly rudimentary & not as accurate as whats been in use since at least the early 80's, though just how far off we cant be sure. It would certainly be interesting to supply todays top shooters with the exact same Banana Bladed Northlands Hull used, see where they wound up against the modern Composites.
 

pappyline

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No, Percival's numbers are 100% flawed. No correct methodology, or measurement system validates a 114 mph wrist shot. There's no way, whatsoever, this can be accomplished, nor can a 95mph backhand. I'm all for giving past player's their due, but claiming Hull, Beleveau, Howe had 105-118 mph shots is about as ridiculous as today's kids saying 1950s players were all AHL level.

Percival did this in 1968. So you don't agree with it in 2013, so what. He came up with these results in 1968. Nobody did it before and nobody has done it since unless you want to call the frivolous all star contests a scientific study. Now Percival did this as a scientific study. Too bad we don't know the equipment or methodology he used... (Mod)

Mod edited the "generational bias" reference out of this post & the post I replied too which I disagree with
 
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Killion

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And it would be interesting to see how a prime Hull would have measured up using today's composites.

Ya. If he could find one that held together, didnt completely shatter & explode upon impact with the puck. :laugh:
 
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Hanji

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Percival did this in 1968. So you don't agree with it in 2013, so what. He came up with these results in 1968. Nobody did it before and nobody has done it since unless you want to call the frivolous all star contests a scientific study. Now Percival did this as a scientific study. Too bad we don't know the equipment or methodology he used... (Mod)

Mod edited the "generational bias" reference out of this post & the post I replied too which I disagree with

I disagree entirely.

Percival's was a pioneer in scientific study, but the 'science of sports' has evolved tenfold in 50 years time.
For example, the particular article in question (Popular Mechanics, Feb. '68) is rather rudimentary by today's scientific standards.
 

Tomas W

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Oct 23, 2007
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If we take Hull's wrist shot down from 105mph to a realistic figure (80-85?) his slapper, under skills competition conditions of today would reduce to around 95mph. Purist's may squawk at that estimation, but it is very easy to realize how his shot became the stuff of legend back then with goalies wearing those early masks (which didn't protect much against impact) and some not even wearing a mask at all yet. No wonder they were terrified.

Yes no doubt his shot was scary for the goalies. Food for myth building.

The OP is right, the 119.5 mph is a myth.
 

billybudd

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Feb 1, 2012
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Yes no doubt his shot was scary for the goalies. Food for myth building.

The OP is right, the 119.5 mph is a myth.

Reminds me of the geneology that has some guy named Methuselah living like 900 years.
 

JuniorNelson

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Let me add a couple of things. First, a wood stick of this era was not a piece of carved wood. It would be a laminate blade, likely reinforced with fiberglass. The shaft might be a single piece of ash or alder and was capable of similar flex to todays sticks. The technological gap isn't that wide. Add the crazy banana bend in the blade and you get a stick with devastating ability. Could Hull attain the claimed speeds? I think if anyone could it would be Hull or Esposito. Al Iafrate could have probably done it but didn't have the advantage of era. The banana sticks were banned in a few years.

Hull was a guy that would throw his whole body into a shot on the fly, leaving himself at full extension. A checker could easily mash a shooter daring to be in this position. Not many challenged Hull, not in those days.

The argument is really was there a single guy blessed with perfect circumstance that utilized the era's equipment to it's maximum advantage? Was there that much advantage?

Stop arguing that the measurement was wrong. The equipment was accurate. The measurement would not account for user movement, though. If the user tracked on an angle, the movement of his arm would account for some of the total figure. A based on nothing, other than experience with police, guess would be seven to ten miles per hour. Anything faster is waving the equipment, not steadily aiming for accuracy and you wouldn't get a reading.
 
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Canadiens1958

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Bob Hayes

^^^ Not the point or comparable. Would Usain Bolt have Bob Hayes speed on the football field? Bob Hayes had elite track speed - 1964 Olympic 100M gold and 100M world record. Bob Hayes also had football speed - FBHOFer, with pads, impeded by defenders, multiple sprints in an NFL game. Usain Bolt's speed is pure track speed. Never tested under NFL game conditions.
 

Pominville Knows

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I suppose anyone who takes these numbers at face value also believe that Bo Jackson and Deion Sanders were faster than Usain Bolt?

They probably could have been, over a 40-yard dash. Bolt is not built to be at his best over a 40-yard stretch. Not saying that he could not win, especially if he trained for it, but truth is he does not compete in 40-yard races but over 100 metres, and as a matter of fact as long as 200 as well.
 

pappyline

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I disagree entirely.

Percival's was a pioneer in scientific study, but the 'science of sports' has evolved tenfold in 50 years time.
For example, the particular article in question (Popular Mechanics, Feb. '68) is rather rudimentary by today's scientific standards.

Please provide a link to the latest scientific study on shot speed. Would love to see it.
 

Epsilon

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They probably could have been, over a 40-yard dash. Bolt is not built to be at his best over a 40-yard stretch. Not saying that he could not win, especially if he trained for it, but truth is he does not compete in 40-yard races but over 100 metres, and as a matter of fact as long as 200 as well.

He accelerates over roughly the first 50m in a 100m sprint to full speed, then maintains that speed for the remainder of the race. It's hard to say how much faster he could go if he went all-out over just the first half of the race, but based on timing estimates for the splits he's still moving considerably faster over the first half than any football player has managed.

The point is that the 40 yard dash times reported for football players are bogus when compared to any track mark done with FAT (Fully Automatic Time), and everyone knows it even if they don't want to admit it. Chris Huston at Heismanpundit has done a decent job of debunking the legend of 40 yard dash times, and a lot of what he says applies more generally here too with regards to human error induced effects in timing.

http://heismanpundit.com/2013/06/14/the-fastest-players-in-college-football-2013/
 

Pominville Knows

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He accelerates over roughly the first 50m in a 100m sprint to full speed, then maintains that speed for the remainder of the race. It's hard to say how much faster he could go if he went all-out over just the first half of the race, but based on timing estimates for the splits he's still moving considerably faster over the first half than any football player has managed.

The point is that the 40 yard dash times reported for football players are bogus when compared to any track mark done with FAT (Fully Automatic Time), and everyone knows it even if they don't want to admit it. Chris Huston at Heismanpundit has done a decent job of debunking the legend of 40 yard dash times, and a lot of what he says applies more generally here too with regards to human error induced effects in timing.

http://heismanpundit.com/2013/06/14/the-fastest-players-in-college-football-2013/
You mean splits from football players running 100 metres on track. Are you kidding me, i did not say that they might have been faster than Bolt over 100 metres. If one is running 100 we run for the full distance, not for maximizing one split on the cost of the rest of the race. It should be said though that Bolt is an extreme outliner, and they might not have been fastar than him but possibly the sprinters before him.
 

Epsilon

#basta
Oct 26, 2002
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You mean splits from football players running 100 metres on track. Are you kidding me, i did not say that they might have been faster than Bolt over 100 metres. If one is running 100 we run for the full distance, not for maximizing one split on the cost of the rest of the race. It should be said though that Bolt is an extreme outliner, and they might not have been fastar than him but possibly the sprinters before him.

No I'm saying that Bolt's half-way split is a faster pace than what football players are alleged to have ran in a 40 yard dash once one accounts for the roughly 0.2-0.25 second "bonus" the football players get from having stopwatches involved rather than FAT, and the same is true of many other sprinters.
 
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