Hull's 119.5mph Slapshot A Myth

[Epsilon]

I just measured Chara's shot at 137mph. How did I do this? I watched a video of him shooting on Youtube, stopwatched the time from when I determined he released his shot to when I determined it released its destination (hand-timed of course), and then measured the length it travelled using a ruler on my computer screen.

This measurement has just as much validity as several of the things being claimed in this thread by those who worship anyone that played before 1970.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

No it's not. This has everything to do with the fact that nobody has even gotten close to a giant statistical outlier that happened 45 years ago. Not today, not a decade ago, not 20 years ago, ect. The whole 120mph number seems very Sidd Finch-ish.

And no one has scored 92 goals in a season in the 32 years since Gretzky did it. Not today, not a decade ago, not 20 years ago. That doesn't mean Gretzky didn't score 92. Although by your logic it's impossible for Gretzky to have scored 92 in a season because no one has done so since.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

I just measured Chara's shot at 137mph. How did I do this? I watched a video of him shooting on Youtube, stopwatched the time from when I determined he released his shot to when I determined it released its destination (hand-timed of course), and then measured the length it travelled using a ruler on my computer screen.

This measurement has just as much validity as several of the things being claimed in this thread by those who worship anyone that played before 1970.

As opposed to those who worship anyone who played after 2005?

 

[SimplySensational]

I love how some people posting in this topic think its crazy talk to suggest that the speed of shot is affected by the players skating speed.



Ovechkin having a 81 mph slapshot is unlikely.

 

[Killion]

Give me some sound reasoning to believe this.

Huh? There isnt any Bud. I dont believe for a minute Percivals equipment was accurate even taking into account Hull's Banana Blade, figuring as well he probably wound up skating & hit the puck going full speed with full body extension. Sorry. Not buying that reading. Dont buy the wristers, and certainly those numbers on the backhanders, forget it.... Id put Hulls shot in the upper range for sure, 100mph+ no problem. Possibly equal to, faster than Chara. Dunno. Thats hard to say. I dont think Percival falsified his findings, believed the readings were accurate according to his equipment however that equipment had some kinda strange calibrations on it, not right so sorry, theres just no way. Dont ask me to provide any sound reasoning, arguing it as fact. Wrong guy....

it'd be great though to put this to bed, to rest. Get a bunch of Hull model Northland Custom Pro's with the now illegal curves, put them in the hands of todays best Slapshot artists & lets see what the readings are. If that Banana Blade does increase velocity by over 12-15mph putting it into the high teens, Id be shocked. I played goal when those things were legal, cannot ever recall nor imagine even anything I ever faced travelling at that speed. Not a chance. Odd guy in the low hundreds, lots, just about everyone in the high 80's & 90's. What was weird was youd get the odd challenged guy who wasnt that fast & hard, low 80's high 70's, and it was those shots that could give you a lot of trouble on deflections, arcs & dives. You werent used to the puck travelling that slowly on a slapshot.

 

[BudMovin*]

And no one has scored 92 goals in a season in the 32 years since Gretzky did it. Not today, not a decade ago, not 20 years ago. That doesn't mean Gretzky didn't score 92. Although by your logic it's impossible for Gretzky to have scored 92 in a season because no one has done so since.

It will never happen again, not with the current rules. The game has changed so much to favor shot-blocking and superior goal-tending....Please try and stay on topic and not use random references because your argument has absolutely no data to reaffirm your blind faith.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

It will never happen again, not with the current rules. The game has changed so much to favor shot-blocking and superior goal-tending....Please try and stay on topic and not use random references because your argument has absolutely no data to reaffirm your blind faith.

Then I would ask you to stop making logical fallacies so I won't have to go off topic to demonstrate those fallacies.

 

[tombombadil]

What? Not sure what you are saying...Are you even in the right thread?



No it's not. This has everything to do with the fact that nobody has even gotten close to a giant statistical outlier that happened 45 years ago. Not today, not a decade ago, not 20 years ago, ect. The whole 120mph number seems very Sidd Finch-ish.

not to mention, it isn't really an outlier. Everyone in that test dominates anyone today. Howe's wrister is 114mph, backhand close to 100.

Anyone buying this as rote, is actually arguing that farmers who smoke are bionic supermen.

Not sure why anyone in the giant family of hockey hasn't clued in to buy these new-fangled bozos a carton of Camel's and give 'em a gol-danged shovel???

Muddle-headed whoopersnippers.

 

[BudMovin*]

Then I would ask you to stop making logical fallacies so I won't have to go off topic to demonstrate those fallacies.

Prove to me why you think 120 is a valid number without beating around the bush.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Prove to me why you think 120 is a valid number without beating around the bush.

Prove to me why it's impossible.....And no, the logical fallacy of "no one has done it since" isn't proving it's impossible.

 

[Killion]

It will never happen again, not with the current rules. The game has changed so much to favor shot-blocking and superior goal-tending....Please try and stay on topic and not use random references because your argument has absolutely no data to reaffirm your blind faith.

Well, I dont think SP is arguing blindly that Percivals equipment was entirely accurate, nor is he or anyone here aware of how these tests were actually staged, ergo: in light of the advances in timing equipment & the studies of shooting techniques, stick advancements and all the rest of it, rather difficult to believe those published readings are accurate. Interestingly as well the issue of fastest slapshot is or was used by the KHL in its ambitions in becoming the Worlds premiere hockey league. At their All Star Game, some guys shot was clocked at something like 110.8mph, and I have a hard time believing that one as well. I suppose its possible one time, like some kinda freak shot but I doubt it.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Well, I dont think SP is arguing blindly that Percivals equipment was entirely accurate, nor is he or anyone here aware of how these tests were actually staged, ergo: in light of the advances in timing equipment & the studies of shooting techniques, stick advancements and all the rest of it, rather difficult to believe those published readings are accurate. Interestingly as well the issue of fastest slapshot is or was used by the KHL in its ambitions in becoming the Worlds premiere hockey league. At their All Star Game, some guys shot was clocked at something like 110.8mph, and I have a hard time believing that one as well. I suppose its possible one time, like some kinda freak shot but I doubt it.

In fact, I've never stated in any of my posts whether I thought it was accurate or not. My problem is with people who just dismiss it out of hand and then use flawed logic to try and defend that dismissal. I also have issues with people who think anyone who played before the mid-90s are somehow Jurassic slobs incapable of doing anything impressive.

 

[BudMovin*]

Prove to me why it's impossible.....And no, the logical fallacy of "no one has done it since" isn't proving it's impossible.

I'll humor you even though you could not do the same. Hull stated that he could hit 150 mph with today's sticks, implying that even he thinks the technology has gotten better, which would aid in velocity. Nobody has even gotten close to 120, yet velocity done via radar gun has gone steadily upwards over the past 30 years, minus the freakish 105.2 Iafrate shot in 1993. Players have gotten bigger, stronger (I know form is most important, but this helps to some degree). The equipment and methodology used to measure velocity is much more accurate today. Nobody is saying Hull didn't have a howitzer of a shot back then and that it was ahead of it's time. It's just that that number and the other number's pitched relating to his backhand and wrister make it sound like the numbers were not correct.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

I'll humor you even though you could not do the same. Hull stated that he could hit 150 mph with today's sticks, implying that even he thinks the technology has gotten better, which would aid in velocity. Nobody has even gotten close to 120, yet velocity done via radar gun has gone steadily upwards over the past 30 years, minus the freakish 105.4 Iafrate shot in 1993. Players have gotten bigger, stronger (I know form is most important, but this helps to some degree). The equipment and methodology used to measure velocity is much more accurate today. Nobody is saying Hull didn't have a howitzer of a shot back then and that it was ahead of it's time. It's just that that number and the other number's pitched relating to his backhand and wrister make it sound like the numbers were not correct.

In other words.....the bionic superman argument

 

[Fish on The Sand]

Prove to me why it's impossible.....And no, the logical fallacy of "no one has done it since" isn't proving it's impossible.

Feats of strength (such as a slapshot) or speed (such as skating) will only get better over time. This is demonstrated in every sport. What you are suggesting is akin to saying somebody 40 years ago run the 100m in under 9 seconds. Surely you can see how ridiculous this is. If Bobby Hull was able to shoot a slapshot at 120 mgp, which I would imagine is 40 mph than the vast majority of his contemporaries and at least 25 mph fastest than the next best then he is surely the greatest underachiever the sport has ever known because he had such an advantage over the rest of the competition that even the incredible totals he put up would be pedestrian in comparison to how dominating that shot would be.

 

[BudMovin*]

In other words.....the bionic superman argument

Um no.

 

[tombombadil]

Well, I dont think SP is arguing blindly that Percivals equipment was entirely accurate, nor is he or anyone here aware of how these tests were actually staged, ergo: in light of the advances in timing equipment & the studies of shooting techniques, stick advancements and all the rest of it, rather difficult to believe those published readings are accurate. Interestingly as well the issue of fastest slapshot is or was used by the KHL in its ambitions in becoming the Worlds premiere hockey league. At their All Star Game, some guys shot was clocked at something like 110.8mph, and I have a hard time believing that one as well. I suppose its possible one time, like some kinda freak shot but I doubt it.

That's a good point, I had forgotten about that Russian dman. He isn't a one time thing either, he has clocked lots of crazy slappers, and I think he even got ove the number you posted. And I agree, its likely a ploy... but, i think the underlying truth is that you can't really trust any of these numbers unless everyone is tested by the same equipment. I don't think Percival intended a ploy, but whatever he used may/must have been apples to our oranges.

An oldtimer excuse on here for the pace of play back in the day, is the type of skates, and the short sticks. If I were to believe some on here, Percivals tests are accurate (and its insulting to say otherwise), and that's with old equipment!! Wowee, they don't make em like they used to.

I will re-iterate a point I made earlier - Hull stands out, percentage-wise, above his peers more than Mac Or Chara. Whether his wooden stick with the crazy curve (funny that his wrister isn't faster, come to think of it) shot the puck as fast as Chara and his stick is arguable, but really, really doubtful to me... but also, it doesn't matter - he hit it harder than his peers by more than Chara hits it harder than his. Impressive, in any case.

 

[BudMovin*]

Well, I dont think SP is arguing blindly that Percivals equipment was entirely accurate, nor is he or anyone here aware of how these tests were actually staged, ergo: in light of the advances in timing equipment & the studies of shooting techniques, stick advancements and all the rest of it, rather difficult to believe those published readings are accurate. Interestingly as well the issue of fastest slapshot is or was used by the KHL in its ambitions in becoming the Worlds premiere hockey league. At their All Star Game, some guys shot was clocked at something like 110.8mph, and I have a hard time believing that one as well. I suppose its possible one time, like some kinda freak shot but I doubt it.

Pretty sure they shot closer to the net in that competition, which is why it isn't recognized.

 

[tombombadil]

In fact, I've never stated in any of my posts whether I thought it was accurate or not. My problem is with people who just dismiss it out of hand and then use flawed logic to try and defend that dismissal. I also have issues with people who think anyone who played before the mid-90s are somehow Jurassic slobs incapable of doing anything impressive.

I don't think thi sway at all, and I DO believe, strongly, that training/conditioning is at a higher level nowadays. But for somethign like slapping it, well, the best practice is slappin' it.

SP, have you seen the article I posted on page 1? The article with all 9 participants' numbers? They are ALL better than Fedorov's 101mph. Guys like Delvecchio, who only cracked 30 goals once, and had the puck a lot, shooting at helmetless goalies. This isn't a crack at oldtimers - you are basically saying everyone now is ****.

Howe's wrister is 114, for crying out loud.. And this is with old sticks. So, I would be thinking Hull would be firin' em at 130+, Howe's wrister would be over 120, and the other 7 guys would all be burying Chara and Weber.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

I don't think thi sway at all, and I DO believe, strongly, that training/conditioning is at a higher level nowadays. But for somethign like slapping it, well, the best practice is slappin' it.

SP, have you seen the article I posted on page 1? The article with all 9 participants' numbers? They are ALL better than Fedorov's 101mph. Guys like Delvecchio, who only cracked 30 goals once, and had the puck a lot, shooting at helmetless goalies. This isn't a crack at oldtimers - you are basically saying everyone now is ****.

Howe's wrister is 114, for crying out loud.. And this is with old sticks. So, I would be thinking Hull would be firin' em at 130+, Howe's wrister would be over 120, and the other 7 guys would all be burying Chara and Weber.

Al Iafrate had a harder slapper than Fedorov.....and Al never had more than 25 goals in a season. Just because you can slap it hard doesn't mean you can score. There's a lot more that goes into scoring goals than just trying to power it past the goalie.

 

[billybudd]

This gets to the gist of the problem. Subscribers to the 'heavy shot' theory are describing a feeling, it's not something concrete.
In addition, I don' think such a feeling has ever been universally agreed upon. I strongly doubt every goaltender who ever faced Al MacInnis thought he had a 'heavy' shot.

In many ways it's similar to somebody claiming "I feel God! It's 100% real. Prove what I'm feeling isn't God!".

Imho, the reason is psychological and/or perceptive more so than actual shot speed or heavyness. I believe poster bewbies described it perfectly earlier in this thread.

I doubt anybody measured the decibels, but you can hear an audible difference when a guy with a "heavy shot" hits glass, especially with pros. It's much, much louder than other shots traveling at similar velocities hitting the same glass.

 

[billybudd]

I don't think thi sway at all, and I DO believe, strongly, that training/conditioning is at a higher level nowadays. But for somethign like slapping it, well, the best practice is slappin' it.

SP, have you seen the article I posted on page 1? The article with all 9 participants' numbers? They are ALL better than Fedorov's 101mph. Guys like Delvecchio, who only cracked 30 goals once, and had the puck a lot, shooting at helmetless goalies. This isn't a crack at oldtimers - you are basically saying everyone now is ****.

Howe's wrister is 114, for crying out loud.. And this is with old sticks. So, I would be thinking Hull would be firin' em at 130+, Howe's wrister would be over 120, and the other 7 guys would all be burying Chara and Weber.

There's also the small matter of a lack of dead goaltenders from being hit in a flimsy noodle of a chest protector with 114 mph wristers game-in game-out and going into cardiac arrest. Or taking an errant slapper off the helmetless noggin and having it come out the other side like a freaking bullet.

 

[Pominville Knows]

Then you are deluding yourself. The NFL experimented with Fully Automatic Time (aka the system that is used to time runners in track & field, which is the most accurate timing system in existence for running), and the times were not released officially because they were worried it would embarrass the players to have their actual speeds come out, rather than the fictitiously fast hand-timed speeds. Read the article from Heismanpundit I posted earlier and the accompanying links.

So you mean that they consistently stopped the clock too early. Not ever late? Have you seen these beasts physiques?

 

[Harry Waters]

Al Iafrate had a harder slapper than Fedorov.....and Al never had more than 25 goals in a season. Just because you can slap it hard doesn't mean you can score. There's a lot more that goes into scoring goals than just trying to power it past the goalie.

No, but that was not what he meant.

On another note: You do realize that wristers with over 100mph would mean that the area of high quality shots would increase massively, don't you? If you can throw a wrister with the velocity of Ovi's slapshot, you suddenly have scoring opportunities from almost anywhere inside the blue line. Especially back in those days, where shooters had more time to get their shots off and stand-up goalies. Basically every shot from a reasonable angle going near the goal posts would get the goalies in huge trouble.

I'm all for giving the great players of the past credit, but in no way, shape or form are their wrist shots as hard (or even harder) as today's slappers.

And no, shotspeed is not everything, but when your wrister is dangerous from everywhere insinde the blue line, you should score more than 30 goals, period.

 

[Harry Waters]

1968 Summer Olympics, Bob Beamon shattered the Olympic and world long jump record:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Beamon

all the key factors converged plus altitude.

No issues with methodology,measuring equipment. The record endured into the nineties.

The argument is not that there is not one player from back then who could challenge or match today's shots. The argument is that it is very unlikely that a whole bunch of players can do it.
And then, even more obvious, there is the margin. If Howe's wrister is 114mph and Hull's slapshot is 119,5mph or at least above 118mph, the equivalent wouldn't be Beamon's 8,90m, it would be like Beamon jumping north of 10 meters. Hull's shot is about 10% faster than anyone's today, and Howe's wrister even more that that. And now do the math with Beamon's jump, which was additionally helped by the height in Mexico.