Hull's 119.5mph Slapshot A Myth

[Thesensation19*]

i hate this thread and don't want to dive into this, but oh well -

Georges fights at 170, he doesn't weigh 170, except when he has dieted and cut the water from out of his muscles. He is around 190, in elite fighting shape (witness his wrestling with Georges Laraque if you want to see the difference between 45 second shape and MMA shape)

I am going to confidently speculate, and I am confident that everybody on here is going to be all over this, that Lafleur's 175 pounds are nowhere similar to GSP's 190lbs, in muscle density, or even in fat%. Were GSP 6'0, he would likely weigh something like 205, which is in keeping with most 'mules' Witness Forsberg or Denis Potvin. Additionally, 5'10'rs, when built up perfectly, are usually around GSP's weight - 185-190. Witness Bobby Hull and Pavel Bure.

This is not a knock on Lafleur, he is just a rangy athlete, like a Nick Diaz, for instance.

I would agree with you on all accounts. But to say one person is a mule is usually a term given to the hard working never stop kind of guys. In any aspect of physical ability. It was usually given out as a name to guys who worked on farms though. That is why I say its okay to call Lafluer a Mule like character.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't have concerns with the methodology.

I have concerns with the difference in the methodology used to capture Hull's results and the ones from today at the all star game for example.

People quickly discount that Hull could possibly have taken a 119mph slapshot but they (we as far as I know) don't know how it was even measured exactly.

However, because Zdeno Chara today can't shoot harder than Hull did.. people make the judgement that it was "impossible".

It may be that the equipment was not as accurate and Hull did not in fact shoot that hard. It may be that he was taking a shot while in motion (in contrast the the all star games where the puck is stationary) and did in fact shoot that hard with that assistance.

Maybe he was just a super strong farm boy with a heavy wooden stick who blasted a puck like no one ever has since..

The fact that virtually every player tested in Percival's study had shots recorded as faster than ANY player today makes it pretty clear te methodology was different

 

[BraveCanadian]

The fact that virtually every player tested in Percival's study had shots recorded as faster than ANY player today makes it pretty clear te methodology was different

Right, so I don't get why people just say "impossible!"

Obviously it was possible - just under different conditions.

It is too bad we don't know what they were. At least I don't think anyone has found the methodology?

 

[tombombadil]

I would agree with you on all accounts. But to say one person is a mule is usually a term given to the hard working never stop kind of guys. In any aspect of physical ability. It was usually given out as a name to guys who worked on farms though. That is why I say its okay to call Lafluer a Mule like character.

alright. I wasn't sure where you were coming from.

 

[Killion]

The fact that virtually every player tested in Percival's study had shots recorded as faster than ANY player today makes it pretty clear te methodology was different

Indeed. Consider that Zdeno Charas' Slapshot was recorded at 105.4mph. In 1968, Jean Beliveaus Wrist Shot clocked at 105.9mph, Gordie Howes at 114.9mph. Quite impossible. Other studies were done by Percival as well, including average skating speeds and so on. Popular Mechanics who published his findings just published it as is, there was no peer review, they didnt really check it out so Id have to say interesting, but not accurate...

 

[tombombadil]

Indeed. Consider that Zdeno Charas' Slapshot was recorded at 105.4mph. In 1968, Jean Beliveaus Wrist Shot clocked at 105.9mph, Gordie Howes at 114.9mph. Quite impossible. Other studies were done by Percival as well, including average skating speeds and so on. Popular Mechanics who published his findings just published it as is, there was no peer review, they didnt really check it out so Id have to say interesting, but not accurate...

Exactly.

All this really likely says is that Hull had a slapshot that stood out from his peers, and Howe had a wrister that did.

I don't need to know how the numbers translate, but for me it puts them in the elite-all time-for-shooting-hard-gang with Dan Charles (Canadianized spelling), Al MacIniss, Iafrate, Serge Federsson, etc.

 

[Killion]

Exactly.

Ya. Heres a guy who wrote an article about that 1968 Popular Mechanics feature with a link to the actual piece itself. Some interesting tests beyond the shot velocity measurements including comparative body types, average skating speeds etc etc. Some interesting stuff in here...

www.hockey-blog-in-canada.blogspot.ca/2009/12/hardest-shot-ever.html

 

[billybudd]

There are people who believe these numbers to be accurate? 105 mph wrist shot would have broken a goaltenders' ribs/collarbone in Hull's era. Shattered a glove hand if it handcuffed the guy. Caved in a face right through the mask if it was off target. And a 96 mpg backhand? I think this doctor measured all this in metric and complely screwed up the conversion rate.

shooting at a goaltenders head no way, no one does that, do they?

Pronger used to do this to both defenders and goaltenders. Wasn't necessarily trying to hit the goalie in the head, just sort of buzz him high as a pitcher would do to intimidate a batter. In the case of D, if you got in his shooting lane one time too many, he might haul off and put everything on a shot directed right at the guy's foot. Effect was that guys were a bit hesitant to get in his lane, which is why so many of his point shots got through traffic.

 

[Killion]

Pronger used to do this to both defenders and goaltenders. Wasn't necessarily trying to hit the goalie in the head, just sort of buzz him high as a pitcher would do to intimidate a batter.

Ya there have been more than just a few players who have done that over the years, pretty much since the Slapshot really caught on after Boom Boom Geoffrion popularized its use, followed by Bathgate, Mikita, Hull & everyone else. According to Glenn Hall, wasnt actually Geoffrion who "invented" it around 1949/50, but a career minor leaguer out of Windsor Ontario some years previously named George Ouellette.

 

[billybudd]

George St Pierre is 5'10 at 170 and I would consider him a hard working fit athlete. In other words, many would claim he was a mule. A guy who just can be counted on to work all day. Just fights through everything. Size has little to do with it.

Bigger guys usually cant get as low and thus lack in "power" yet you may still considerthem strong

St Pierre's a professional fighter. On top of that he's got a wrestling background.

In other words, he might fight at 170 but there's zero chance he actually weighs that in any hour of his life other than one in which there's a weigh-in or a practice cut. Considering how particular the guy is about his nutrition and training and that he, nonetheless, needed a technicality to clear his last cut, my guess is he's closer to 200, and that's with 4 or 5 percent body fat.

Reason the guy's so strong for his division is that he's flat-out got more muscle-mass than the guys he fights. In some cases, a lot more.

 

[Pominville Knows]

Dan Charles (Canadianized spelling), Serge Federsson

Who the **** are these guys? The last surname actually sound nordic but most certainly is not lol. SERGE Federsson hahah.

 

[tombombadil]

Ya. Heres a guy who wrote an article about that 1968 Popular Mechanics feature with a link to the actual piece itself. Some interesting tests beyond the shot velocity measurements including comparative body types, average skating speeds etc etc. Some interesting stuff in here...

www.hockey-blog-in-canada.blogspot.ca/2009/12/hardest-shot-ever.html

i remember reading this awhile ago.

The first sentence I fixed on was that Howe and Hull were 'inches quicker to loose pucks' The first thing I thought of was Gretzky. The difference between slow and fast, in foot speed, is literally inches when the race is over a handful of meters. Anyone that can read a bounce .25 of a second faster, and get the first step, doesn't need to be very fast to get pucks.

Dan Charles is Zdeno Chara, btw, other guy.

 

[tombombadil]

Who the **** are these guys? The last surname actually sound nordic but most certainly is not lol. SERGE Federsson hahah.

I wasn't even drunk when I wrote that. It was a stupid, inside joke at my job. I always argue on the Euro's behalf, so I started 'Canadianizing' names to make the players more comfortable in my coworkers' minds. All a joke, didn't work at all. We stare at wood going left to right most of the day.... so, anything to pass the time.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Team Speed

Overlooked so far is the team speed aspect as reported in the 1968 study. Would be very interesting to see information about the methodology and results.

 

[Killion]

Overlooked so far is the team speed aspect as reported in the 1968 study. Would be very interesting to see information about the methodology and results.

Ya that is interesting & appears on the surface to be somewhat more accurate than his shot clocking. The Canadiens for example in 68 noted for being the fastest team, the Rangers the slowest. Also comparative body-types, which players would make for the best shutdown specialists & so on.

 

[Hanji]

I don't have concerns with the methodology.

I have concerns with the difference in the methodology used to capture Hull's results and the ones from today at the all star game for example.

People quickly discount that Hull could possibly have taken a 119mph slapshot but they (we as far as I know) don't know how it was even measured exactly.

However, because Zdeno Chara today can't shoot harder than Hull did.. people make the judgement that it was "impossible".

It may be that the equipment was not as accurate and Hull did not in fact shoot that hard. It may be that he was taking a shot while in motion (in contrast the the all star games where the puck is stationary) and did in fact shoot that hard with that assistance.

Maybe he was just a super strong farm boy with a heavy wooden stick who blasted a puck like no one ever has since..

What leads you to believe this?

What method is used whereby wrist shots are faster than slapshots? Backhands faster than wrist shots?

Forget about comparisons to today's numbers, there's just no uniformity to these figures.

 

[Hockey Monkey]

Little difference in velocity & speed between a woody & composite, the main difference being "weight" or "heft" of the shot.

Can you explain the physics behind two projectiles of identical mass and moving at an identical velocity having different "weights"?

 

[Killion]

Can you explain the physics behind two projectiles of identical mass and moving at an identical velocity having different "weights"?

Sure. Its something obviously Goaltenders are more than familiar with, something you almost have to experience to understand, and a painful lesson it can be. Essentially what your dealing with is that though any given Slapshot might be travelling at the same speed, lets say 100mph, some players put a spin on the puck which makes it rotate like for example the bit on a drill. It carries more impact, more weight & heft. Can knock you right off your feet, rip the trapper from your hand if you catch one like that, bruising the body even through chest, shoulder, arm pads. The spin, which is what Al MacInnis and a lot of others cottoned on to at an early age & practised, is achieved by a combination of subtle techniques as explained in this article....

www.eqjournal.org/?p=2791

 

[BraveCanadian]

What method is used whereby wrist shots are faster than slapshots? Backhands faster than wrist shots?

One skating and one stationary?

One measured at the time the puck left the stick and one at the net?

Who knows what other variations

Forget about comparisons to today's numbers, there's just no uniformity to these figures.

Without knowing how the tests were conducted we have no idea what to make of them really.. we have a velocity but have no idea what it was relative to.

 

[Hanji]

One skating and one stationary?

One measured at the time the puck left the stick and one at the net?

Who knows what other variations



Without knowing how the tests were conducted we have no idea what to make of them really.. we have a velocity but have no idea what it was relative to.

It doesn't pass the common sense test.

Why would Percival measure a slap shot by one method, a wrist shot by another, and a backhand by (yet) another? Such a methodology is flawed and of no use because results cannot accurately be cross-compared. A more reasonable explanation is that the measurements are just off.

Nonetheless, if simple wrist shots were traveling (at any point) in access of 100mph, goaltenders would've been maimed or killed in 1968 equipment. Also, scientifically there's no possible way a human being can shoot a puck 96mph on a backhand.

 

[Killion]

It doesn't pass the common sense test.... Nonetheless, if simple wrist shots were traveling (at any point) in access of 100mph, goaltenders would've been maimed or killed in 1968 equipment. Not to mention scientifically there's no possible way a human being can shoot a puck 96mph on a backhand.

No thats for sure. Doesnt add-up, make sense. Id hazard to guess most wrist shots back then, anywhere from 40-65mph+. Maybe the odd one 70+. Slapshots from 75 to the 90's, maybe Hull around 99-100, few others.... as for the equipment, great strides were made from the early 60's on in that regard, but a lot of guys insisted on using antiquated belly pads, essentially little more than quilted cotton arm pads. Companies like Cooper-Weekes that became Cooper etc were in fact producing excellent equipment and you did face some insane Slapshots thanks to the Banana Blade, the puck in flight defying the laws of normal trajectories, arcing wildly left or right, dipping or rising. A lot of the shots high.

But generally speaking depending on what you had, quite confident in its ability to protect, on a deflection or ricocheting puck moving at 100mph. Back then you made a "save", you had it telegraphed. Not like todays goalies whereby its all "block", little consideration given to rebounds or rebound control. Their facing composite sticks, which even in the grip of someone with cement hands can get off one Hell of a shot, far quicker release time, faster, heavier shots. Combined with the cycle game & system play, the equipment advances and almost exclusive Butterfly made in reaction to those innovations out front.

Lots of the older goalies who still play recreationally into their 40's, 60's etc, they'll maybe once a year go retro just for a lark, donning the old Waffle Blocker, GM12 Catcher, old school Cooper GP or D&R pads, Plante mask or whatever. And even at that in facing like-minded older rec players equipped with Composite Sticks, can be deadly. Todays shots using those sticks almost always "heavy". Back in the day youd face hard shots, same speeds, just not all heavy so what we had actually quite sufficient. The pads were heavier, got heavier through a game if you were a major flopper rather than stand-up, but more than adequate and really quite excellent. Couldnt use them effectively, efficiently with todays BF though, pads completely re-designed. Blockers a lot thicker, the side panels actually employed on deflections their that thick; todays trappers, how these guys position it face forward and in closer to the body, the way its constructed, completely alien.

 

[Zine]

Well that's the point. Goalies can telegraph or position themselves for a 100 mph shots, but they are unlikely to react if taken from close range (wrist shot area).

If Hull, Howe, or Beleveau had wrist shots remotely close to 100mph (measured in any way), they'd be scoring 5+ goals a game. Goalies wouldn't have stood a chance. A wrist shot (see accuracy) with the velocity of a 100mph slap shot is practically unstoppable from circles in.

 

[Killion]

Well that's the point. Goalies can telegraph or position themselves for a 100 mph shots, but they are unlikely to react if taken from close range (wrist shot area).

Sure. Wrist & flick or snap shots, tougher to stop. Readable if youve got angle but still tricky. A Backhander though? Woo. Lookout. Only thing you can do is pray. Even on a slow one, a drifter. Extreme angle combined with the spin a nightmare. Forced deep into your crease, only thing for it the Butterfly, block, hope it hits you. Puck goes crazy in flight off the backside of a blade. A wrister or snap, not difficult even from the slot if youve got your angles dialled in. Its a direct shot, usually no spin, not heavy.. accurate ya. Tricks to make em' shoot where you want.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Shot Times

Overlooked is that in test or skill competitions is that the shots are taken on freshly resurfaced or almost clean ice, the shooter is allowed extreme wind-up, momentum, etc opportunity and executes the shot unimpeded.

Impossible under game conditions.

 

[BobbyAwe]

If we take Hull's wrist shot down from 105mph to a realistic figure (80-85?) his slapper, under skills competition conditions of today would reduce to around 95mph. Purist's may squawk at that estimation, but it is very easy to realize how his shot became the stuff of legend back then with goalies wearing those early masks (which didn't protect much against impact) and some not even wearing a mask at all yet. No wonder they were terrified.