Speculation: How would you go about a rebuild?

[conFABulator]

Hossa signed a 12 year back diving contract where his salary for the last 4 years was $1M.

And yes, I used the specifics of the Tavares because I was referring to....wait for it...... the Tavares deal in the previous posts.

The salary being $1M in each of the last four years was to keep AAV down. That is prohibited now.

So, your point is that not other team singed Tavares for $11M to be second line center? I guess I can't argue with that.

It seemed as though you didn't like the move of signing a UFA to be your top paid player if they weren't going to be a top line player...because, you know...that's what you asked.

Now that I have one provided you with an answer to your actual question you are now admitting it's just the Tavares deal you don't like (with the benefit of hindsight and no mention of the pandemic flat cap).

EDIT: someone corrected me because Campbell was actually the UFA Chicago signed to be their highest paid player and not s top tier contributor. The point still stands, even moreso. The Leafs were not the first team to surround a young core with veteran support staff. They just didn't run into a flat cap I guess

 

[JEI]

It's almost as if people don't realize tavarss has been inconsistent
The real truth mathews marner and Nylander were signed for way too much money for the length of term
Shanahan allowing this was a travesty
He hired a boy to do a man's job
Lol lamourello would have got this done I have no doubts
This defence and goaltending is just not good enuff

Didn't Lou basically create the Nylander situation for Dubas to walk into that summer? In the sense he could have signed him at some point earlier? (Don't believe Shanahans comments helped either). And didn't he basically come out and complain about his own signing of Horvat right as it was announced?

Lou may have certainly done better in some aspects (without looking feels like he's been good at finding goalies) but I'm not sure the contracts would have been much different from those star players from what I've seen since then from them.

Lous' philosophy of 'if you have time use it' and the Leafs young starts betting on themselves (we see Nylander doing this again with his contract) to get what they want I don't think would have ended up workings out well either. Maybe Lou would have traded Nylander to make a statement regarding contract demands..but would that have been a good move? Guess we'll never know. It doesn't seem like experienced Tre is doing anything different.. we will see (re Nylander and Marner)..

 

[conFABulator]

1 out of 3…

He was a UFA.

He never was their highest paid player. Brian Campbell’s 7+ million dolllar contract was signed the previous summer. He was also lower than Chrisobal Huet.

He was at worst their 4th best player. Consistent 30 goal winger who plays Selke-calibre defence is pretty good…

Ok, then Campbell is the answer to the question.

3 for 3.

He was a UFA, signed to be their highest paid player and not a top contributor.

Agree that Hossa was a big player for them and a good signing. He was not one of the top 3 on that team though...that would be some order of Kane, Toews and Keith...maybe Seabrook.

Every other dam team had to deal with the pandemic and some of them one a cup…….even Vegas a new franchise.
This Covid excuse is a lame one. The bottom line is Dubas tried to build a team in a style that has never been done before or since and he failed

But not every team was in the same situation when Covid hit. How is having the single largest variable in your planning equation change overnight a lame excuse exactly?

We was the first line winger wasn’t he?

Probably, would people feel better if we put Tavares on the top line? The point was a top level player. He had to have been behind Kane, Toews and Keith. Maybe Seabrook and Sharp? I like Hossa by the way.

 

[ToneDog]

Not sign every player to 11 million coming off entry level


Tavares earned his ufa contract .he'd have gotten 10 at least to stay on the island
This core four needed to be coached by John Cooper and Keefe

He was offered $11mx8 by the Isanders. Looking back, I do not believe he ever hit 90 points so he was not worth $11m. I thought he was coming home and said $10m-$10.5m max and now I am thinking it was also too much. Of course, fans had no way of knowing the landscape when it came the greed of the 3 amigos.

 

[ACC1224]

Didn't Lou basically create the Nylander situation for Dubas to walk into that summer? In the sense he could have signed him at some point earlier? (Don't believe Shanahans comments helped either). And didn't he basically come out and complain about his own signing of Horvat right as it was announced?

Lou may have certainly done better in some aspects (without looking feels like he's been good at finding goalies) but I'm not sure the contracts would have been much different from those star players from what I've seen since then from them.

Lous' philosophy of 'if you have time use it' and the Leafs young starts betting on themselves (we see Nylander doing this again with his contract) to get what they want I don't think would have ended up workings out well either. Maybe Lou would have traded Nylander to make a statement regarding contract demands..but would that have been a good move? Guess we'll never know. It doesn't seem like experienced Tre is doing anything different.. we will see (re Nylander and Marner)..

Lou would have known to take Marners initial offer(8.5 x 8) or at least negotiate off of that. He defiantly wouldn't have signed Matthews before Marner, that was a Dubas' rookie move.

 

[Evilhomer]

Lou would have known to take Marners initial offer(8.5 x 8) or at least negotiate off of that. He defiantly wouldn't have signed Matthews before Marner, that was a Dubas' rookie move.

I think if this board has taken to glorifying Lou's contract negotiating abilities, the shark has been jumped. Has anyone been paying attention to the contracts Lou has negotiated in the last several years? Some of the worst in the NHL.

 

[ACC1224]

I think if this board has taken to glorifying Lou's contract negotiating abilities, the shark has been jumped. Has anyone been paying attention to the contracts Lou has negotiated in the last several years? Some of the worst in the NHL.

My post was in reference to his time here.

 

[Evilhomer]

My post was in reference to his time here.

He was pretty bad with contracts here, as well. Marleau? Zaitsev?

 

[ACC1224]

He was pretty bad with contracts here, as well. Marleau? Zaitsev?

Yep those were pretty bad although the impact of Marleaus was down to Dubas.

What about Rielly and Kadri?

 

[Evilhomer]

Yep those were pretty bad although the impact of Marleaus was down to Dubas.

What about Rielly and Kadri?

Right, like every GM he had some good contracts and some bad ones. Same with Dubas. The idea that Lou would have signed Marner or Matthews to lower-dollar contracts is pretty much just baseless hindsight. People like doing it when the team is on a losing streak. Meanwhile, I'm sure virtually every Islanders' fan would love to give Lou back to Toronto. I know they have had their fill of him.

 

[ACC1224]

Right, like every GM he had some good contracts and some bad ones. Same with Dubas. The idea that Lou would have signed Marner or Matthews to lower-dollar contracts is pretty much just baseless hindsight. People like doing it when the team is on a losing streak. Meanwhile, I'm sure virtually every Islanders' fan would love to give Lou back to Toronto. I know they have had their fill of him.

Everything here is baseless, it's just a discussion board.
Everyone knew signing Matthews first was a mistake as it gave Marner an internal comparable. It's safe to assume that someone more experienced would know that.

 

[hullsy47]

He was offered $11mx8 by the Isanders. Looking back, I do not believe he ever hit 90 points so he was not worth $11m. I thought he was coming home and said $10m-$10.5m max and now I am thinking it was also too much. Of course, fans had no way of knowing the landscape when it came the greed of the 3 amigos.

Yea but he earned his right UFA .MARNER GOT PAID WAY TOO MUCH

Didn't Lou basically create the Nylander situation for Dubas to walk into that summer? In the sense he could have signed him at some point earlier? (Don't believe Shanahans comments helped either). And didn't he basically come out and complain about his own signing of Horvat right as it was announced?

Lou may have certainly done better in some aspects (without looking feels like he's been good at finding goalies) but I'm not sure the contracts would have been much different from those star players from what I've seen since then from them.

Lous' philosophy of 'if you have time use it' and the Leafs young starts betting on themselves (we see Nylander doing this again with his contract) to get what they want I don't think would have ended up workings out well either. Maybe Lou would have traded Nylander to make a statement regarding contract demands..but would that have been a good move? Guess we'll never know. It doesn't seem like experienced Tre is doing anything different.. we will see (re Nylander and Marner)..

Yea but he earned his right UFA .MARNER GOT PAID WAY TOO MUCH

Sill hasn't 1 .the leafs are paying a shit ton for no dynasty and maybe ,like Washington 1 cup ,to shut us all up for another 50 years

 

[ToneDog]

Yea but he earned his right UFA .MARNER GOT PAID WAY TOO MUCH



Sill hasn't 1 .the leafs are paying a shit ton for no dynasty and maybe ,like Washington 1 cup ,to shut us all up for another 50 years

Absolutely. My drop dropped when I heard the number and it signalled that Dubas was a moron to me.

 

[egd27]

Now that I have one provided you with an answer to your actual question you are now admitting it's just the Tavares deal you don't like (with the benefit of hindsight and no mention of the pandemic flat cap).

Correct...with the benefit of hindsight, I believe the Tavares signing was a misstep given where the team was in the rebuilding process.

 

[arso40]

Ok, then Campbell is the answer to the question.

3 for 3.

He was a UFA, signed to be their highest paid player and not a top contributor.

Agree that Hossa was a big player for them and a good signing. He was not one of the top 3 on that team though...that would be some order of Kane, Toews and Keith...maybe Seabrook.


But not every team was in the same situation when Covid hit. How is having the single largest variable in your planning equation change overnight a lame excuse exactly?


Probably, would people feel better if we put Tavares on the top line? The point was a top level player. He had to have been behind Kane, Toews and Keith. Maybe Seabrook and Sharp? I like Hossa by the way.

I get it but him saad and hossa were facing the other teams best lines so I think he classifies as a first line winger literally but I get it haha

 

[m1ker]

Look at Alex Fergusen one of the greatest football managers of all time, managed Manchester United and won the most trophies. He valued team culture and team first mentality. When any player became bigger than the team he transferred them: Beckham, Stam, Nistelrooy, etc.

We are missing team first culture. Right now, PP2 can have the best game and PP1 will take priority no matter what.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Lou would have known to take Marners initial offer(8.5 x 8) or at least negotiate off of that. He defiantly wouldn't have signed Matthews before Marner, that was a Dubas' rookie move.

You have no way of knowing what Lou would have done. I agree about him being "defiant" though.

Everything here is baseless, it's just a discussion board.
Everyone knew signing Matthews first was a mistake as it gave Marner an internal comparable. It's safe to assume that someone more experienced would know that.

Just because your posts are often baseless (like the one above where you claim to know what Lou would have done), that doesn't mean everything here is baseless.

And you really need to lose this habit of thinking you speak for everyone. It looks especially bad when you're wrong, like you are now.

Absolutely. My drop dropped when I heard the number and it signalled that Dubas was a moron to me.

I don't think I'll ever forget when I heard it on the radio. I was driving at the time, lucky I kept my focus enough so that I didn't crash. Had he held firm at 9, 9.5 tops, I believe negotiating with Nylander would much easier than it is.

 

[ToneDog]

Look at Alex Fergusen one of the greatest football managers of all time, managed Manchester United and won the most trophies. He valued team culture and team first mentality. When any player became bigger than the team he transferred them: Beckham, Stam, Nistelrooy, etc.

We are missing team first culture. Right now, PP2 can have the best game and PP1 will take priority no matter what.

Exactly. This is not a team. It is a core and a bunch of second class add ons who have to wait for the core to gorge before they can get the scraps.

Such a waste and I blame it on Shanny for handing the keys to a guy who had his head in the clouds.

 

[conFABulator]

Correct...with the benefit of hindsight, I believe the Tavares signing was a misstep given where the team was in the rebuilding process.

That's clear you think that, you might not be wrong. I just don't know how you assess that deal without taking the flat cap into consideration. If the cap kept rising as it was and was projected to we could sign JT, keep Hyman and add Pietrangelo. I suspect this might have been the plan when JT signed.

I get it but him saad and hossa were facing the other teams best lines so I think he classifies as a first line winger literally but I get it haha

Right. Tavares got 47 goals and was a top contributor too.

 

[egd27]

That's clear you think that, you might not be wrong. I just don't know how you assess that deal without taking the flat cap into consideration. If the cap kept rising as it was and was projected to we could sign JT, keep Hyman and add Pietrangelo. I suspect this might have been the plan when JT signed.

If the cap kept rising, the cost of UFA's would have also risen proportionately as all teams would have had more money to offer.

 

[hullsy47]

Absolutely. My drop dropped when I heard the number and it signalled that Dubas was a moron to me.

Dubas was an operated gm

 

[conFABulator]

If the cap kept rising, the cost of UFA's would have also risen proportionately as all teams would have had more money to offer.

Of course. That leads to two things. Our guys not being overpaid by comparables and every team not having the same budget. Some teams would not spend to the cap. As was the case pre-flat cap but not so much now.

If that cap had continued to rise at a rate based on pre-pandemic it would be ~$17M higher than it is right now. My point is to look at the moves with the benefit of hindsight but not the acknowledgement of the drastically changing cap and budget conditions is not a complete view of the moves that were made.

Would we have signed JT, AM and MM to the deals they got of we knew the cap wasn't increasing? Who knows? I would guess absolutely not. With the benefit of only hindsight we pass on JT and bridge AM and MM and resign them in a flat cap era.

 

[ULF_55]

Step 1: Luck into a Kucherov.

 

[Menzinger]

Step 1: Luck into a Kucherov.

And then luck into a couple top six forwards and top 4 D men with some 2nd-7th round picks

 

[Racer88]

Ok, then Campbell is the answer to the question.

3 for 3.

He was a UFA, signed to be their highest paid player and not a top contributor.

Agree that Hossa was a big player for them and a good signing. He was not one of the top 3 on that team though...that would be some order of Kane, Toews and Keith...maybe Seabrook.


But not every team was in the same situation when Covid hit. How is having the single largest variable in your planning equation change overnight a lame excuse exactly?


Probably, would people feel better if we put Tavares on the top line? The point was a top level player. He had to have been behind Kane, Toews and Keith. Maybe Seabrook and Sharp? I like Hossa by the way.

Yes it’s a lame excuse. Dubas put them in that position.
The absolutely wrong player they needed at that time was Tavares especially at 11 million. It’s Dubas fault that he overpaid these guys before the proved anything!!!!!!