Speculation: How would you go about a rebuild?

[conFABulator]

Yes it’s a lame excuse. Dubas put them in that position.
The absolutely wrong player they needed at that time was Tavares especially at 11 million. It’s Dubas fault that he overpaid these guys before the proved anything!!!!!!

So, you are going to look back and assess Dubas' moves with the benefit of hindsight and not take the fact that the single largest variable in their plan changed dramatically, literally overnight into account?

Right now, every GM in the league has the next four or five years mapped out. That map includes what players are under contract, which players are expiring, what players on other teams could reach UFA, what prospects are progressing, draft capital and cap space for each year. This cap space projection is based on forecasting the cap going up.

We signed four guys to big deals months before the cap froze. If the cap had continued to climb we would have seen lots more big deals signed and our guys wouldn't seem comparatively overpaid. We would have also seen a divide in team salary budgets as not every team would work right to the cap, they would have internal budgets that are less than the cap, just like before the pandemic.

We could have kept our core four, kept Hyman and signed Pietrangelo. We would have $10M left after all that to add. How can you not acknowledge the impact of the flat cap on a team with three young stars and a UFA signing and just the wrong time?

 

[Jojalu]

Yes it’s a lame excuse. Dubas put them in that position.
The absolutely wrong player they needed at that time was Tavares especially at 11 million. It’s Dubas fault that he overpaid these guys before the proved anything!!!!!!

The proved anything doesn't help with anyones case.

As much as fans seem to want to believe that players get paid for winning a Cup, that simply is not the case. Not in hockey. Not in any sport.

 

[Trapper]

Yep those were pretty bad although the impact of Marleaus was down to Dubas.

What about Rielly and Kadri?

Also the trade and signing of Andersen.
The first thing Lou did was acquire a goalie that gave us stability. People blame him for things but don’t underestimate the stability he provided while the youth grew around him.

 

[Lightsol]

Or Blue Collar, hard work. Skill with will and fight .

How many years did the Leafs try to build using this as their defining team concept only to go nowhere? FFS, the only times it actually kind of worked involved some of the most lopsided trades in NHL history...

 

[Trapper]

How many years did the Leafs try to build using this as their defining team concept only to go nowhere? FFS, the only times it actually kind of worked involved some of the most lopsided trades in NHL history...

Because your identity has to be in the core.
What we have is a core lacking intensity, skilled for sure, but not deadly serious and you try to build something like that around what isn’t.
Boston has that identity and why they can lose Bergeron and Krejci and still be effective. Their forwards and grittier, their team is better defensively structured and the D corp + goalie is better.
Meanwhile we are 10 years later hoping Reaves and Bertuzzi bring snot?

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Same. I loved the JT signing at the time.


I didn't think a 30-35ish goal scorer and ppg player was worth 11 mil. But I rationalized that by saying he spent most of his career playing with stiffs on lousy teams. I thought that being surrounded by the young stars on the leafs and being sheltered behind Matthews getting all of the "shut down" players attention, I thought the first 5 or so years of that contract would be like his first season here. Well near 50 goals. That would be worth 11 mil for a ufa. Instead, he's been good but not "11 million" good. Other than 1 great season, he is the same 30-35 goal ppg center he's been his whole career.

I also didn't consider what it would do to internal cap structures. I don't think anybody saw the unprecedented dramatic overpayments coming. Even when the gm position was given to a rookie.

The part of the signing that I was/am upset about is that he was an 80pt player with the NYI. Where he was propping up guys like Matt Molson etc. and making them look better. So, when you sign a guy like that to a team with tons of talent...you don't expect him to be...an 80pt guy like he has been for us. I guess it's not a bad signing in the sense he didn't fall off a cliff in production after 4 or 5yrs. But man, how can you not be disappointed in the first 3-4yrs of his $11m deal when the average PPG player was NOT making $11m?

 

[Lightsol]

Because your identity has to be in the core.
What we have is a core lacking intensity, skilled for sure, but not deadly serious and you try to build something like that around what isn’t.
Boston has that identity and why they can lose Bergeron and Krejci and still be effective. Their forwards and grittier, their team is better defensively structured and the D corp + goalie is better.
Meanwhile we are 10 years later hoping Reaves and Bertuzzi bring snot?

Again, this was the defining team concept from the mid 80's to 2015. And only twice did they come close; the first time required one of the most lopsided trades in NHL history with the Gilmour trade, and the second time was thanks to one of the greatest out-of-nowhere surprise FA signings in Curtis Joseph (and don't tell me "everyone" knew it would work; I remember the articles at that time saying the Leafs should have went after the more proven Vanbiesbruck instead of the unproven Joseph...)...

It just amazes me that after screaming for a decade to try something different, we're now at the point where fans are whining they should have kept doing what didn't work for multiple decades in hopes that it eventually WOULD work...

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Yea but he earned his right UFA .MARNER GOT PAID WAY TOO MUCH



Sill hasn't 1 .the leafs are paying a shit ton for no dynasty and maybe ,like Washington 1 cup ,to shut us all up for another 50 years

I think we are going to win 1 single cup in the next 5-7yrs...but only after everyone has given up on them completely and the pressure is off. We are basically a copy of the Washington teams that kept getting tossed out in the 2nd rd and only won after the pressure was off completely. I think we are a few years away from everyone giving up....so it's not happening anytime soon IMO.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

So, you are going to look back and assess Dubas' moves with the benefit of hindsight and not take the fact that the single largest variable in their plan changed dramatically, literally overnight into account?

Right now, every GM in the league has the next four or five years mapped out. That map includes what players are under contract, which players are expiring, what players on other teams could reach UFA, what prospects are progressing, draft capital and cap space for each year. This cap space projection is based on forecasting the cap going up.

We signed four guys to big deals months before the cap froze. If the cap had continued to climb we would have seen lots more big deals signed and our guys wouldn't seem comparatively overpaid. We would have also seen a divide in team salary budgets as not every team would work right to the cap, they would have internal budgets that are less than the cap, just like before the pandemic.

We could have kept our core four, kept Hyman and signed Pietrangelo. We would have $10M left after all that to add. How can you not acknowledge the impact of the flat cap on a team with three young stars and a UFA signing and just the wrong time?

He could have adjusted. He could have realized his plan was not going to work because of the flat cap. He kept trying to make his dream come true and spent all of the extra talent we had on rentals. He can't use covid as an excuse when all he had to do was trade one of the 4 to get balanced due to the extenuating circumstances. He just didn't (wasn't allowed to) do that and here we are.

 

[conFABulator]

He could have adjusted. He could have realized his plan was not going to work because of the flat cap. He kept trying to make his dream come true and spent all of the extra talent we had on rentals. He can't use covid as an excuse when all he had to do was trade one of the 4 to get balanced due to the extenuating circumstances. He just didn't (wasn't allowed to) do that and here we are.

But now everyone is in a flat cap. What's the adjustment he could have made? Which of the four?

JT just signed here, came home, discount allegedly, captain and NMC.

Which of the other three?

Here we are, where exactly? We have done everything but won a cup. That's true of about 28 other teams. Win more rounds? Sure that would be nice but we wouldn't be happy with that either. The two years we bottomed out were the years we draft Marner and Matthews. Look at all the teams that drafted around us those years.

Would you rather we be Buffalo? Columbus? Edmonton? Arizona? Winnipeg?..even Jersey and Carolina?

These were the teams that sucked when we did. Who has done a better job exactly? I know you think we could have done better, but none of these teams did. Are you better than all of these GMs, not just Dubas? It takes time to build a winner.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Also the trade and signing of Andersen.
The first thing Lou did was acquire a goalie that gave us stability. People blame him for things but don’t underestimate the stability he provided while the youth grew around him.

Unfortunately Andersen became a lot less stable over time.

He could have adjusted. He could have realized his plan was not going to work because of the flat cap. He kept trying to make his dream come true and spent all of the extra talent we had on rentals. He can't use covid as an excuse when all he had to do was trade one of the 4 to get balanced due to the extenuating circumstances. He just didn't (wasn't allowed to) do that and here we are.

Based on what we've learned about Shanahan, it's very possible Dubas was never allowed to trade a core piece.

 

[BigBlu]

The Tavares contract (with a no-trade)* stops a real rebuild. Full stop.

That was the audacity of that signing. You put a blind fold and handcuffs on yourself for 7 years. And you celebrated it!!! Morons.

 

[horner]

Sadly you are not wrong but if Matty and Mitch do not have what it takes to push the ball over the goal line, it really does not make any difference whether they fast tracked the rebuild by signing Tavares. That has been the constant with this team and until they prove they can, they are the #1 reason IMO that they have not advanced past 1 win in round #2.

The difference is we couldn't build a strong team for the playoffs 2 lines don't cut it .
When JT signed with us it gave mathews and marner big heads thinking dubas would cave and he did.
Because we signed JT we had to give up a 1st to get ride of Marleau
Signing Marleau was a stupid move by Lou I never liked him as a player soft soft soft.

 

[Jojalu]

I would like to know the discusiions between Matthews and BT.

Did BT tell Matthews that the Leafs were going to go for it every year? Did they discuss a re-tool as I doubt they talked about a rebuild?

This would be the year to retool if the Leafs falter. You have Bertuzzi, Domi, Brodie and possibly Gio to unload at the deadline.

You could work on a sign and trade with Nylander to add to it.

If you wanted to go full retool you could also ask Mitch to waive his NTC and tell him they are going in another direction.

The first 4 would help restock some picks.

Nylander you can't really move for futures so hopefully he would bring back some help on D.

Marner would bring bavk a tonne with a shady handshake deal that he would renegotiate with his new team when allowed.

I don't think they will do any of it.