KINGS17
Smartest in the Room
- Apr 6, 2006
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Yeah, just an incredible crashing of oil prices today due to lack of demand. The cost to store a barrel of oil will soon exceed the cost of the oil itself if this continues.
TSN: How the coronavirus could impact the NHL’s bottom line UPD: NHL Season suspended MOD Warning post139
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As I said, it’s doesn’t have to be about “free speech”, we can just get over it and use the names everyone knows that skip the baggage. It’s disingenuous to say we should call it “the Chinese virus” so that people know where it comes from. Everyone knows where it came from, and for the one person that doesn’t they can look it up. I’m not suggesting the fact be hidden or omitted, it’s just unnecessary to keep beating on it given what’s happening. I don’t go around introducing myself as “Pacoima Fred” because I was born there and my name is Fred. I suspect no one else here does that either.
NOTE: I was not born in Pacoima nor is my name Fred.
Agree on the above but I fear 1 & 2 are going to be neigh impossible at this point given the apparent cover up by the Chinese government.
This is what I’m saying...
ricardfromage
"You wanted the Germs, you get em"
My entire 401k is tied up in the petroleum industry in one way or another. Tough times for certain.
ricardfromage
"You wanted the Germs, you get em"
My entire 401k is tied up in the petroleum industry in one way or another. Tough times for certain.
Isn't using the term "hate mongering racist" to describe someone else's opinion(s) the definition of "hate speech" as well? I am curious because terms like those are thrown around a whole bunch these days and I typically find your posts to at the very least be food for thought rather I agree with them or not. Especially when it comes to hockey so I would be interested to see your take on my question. One man's meat is another's garbage sort of thing.
KINGS17
Smartest in the Room
- Apr 6, 2006
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New screen name for Bandit "Not-Pacoima Fred".
I think the issue many have who continue to use the term "Chinese Virus" is there seems to be a willingness on the part of some organizations (most prominently WHO), and some media sources to give too much credence to the propaganda of the Communist Chinese government. It's push back on the Chinese propaganda in many cases.
tny760
Registered User
- Mar 12, 2017
- 20,782
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i'm staying out of this conversation for the most part but i've noticed a lot of people don't like referring to the chinese govt like this while simultaneously wanting to call the disease by its "official name"
King'sPawn
Enjoy the chaos
- Jul 1, 2003
- 23,190
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Re: Taiwan and Korea calling it Wuhan Flu, I can't say. I don't know the common term in their country. I don't know if the term Virus is part of their lexicon. What I do know is Wuhan is more specific in origin compared to China.
Re: free speech, you are throwing it around without understanding it. Free speech means the government can't restrict your thoughts and opinions, but that's not an a get out of jail free card to be lazy or ignorant with language.
HF restricts speech every day. Work restricts speech. Judges restrict speech in courts of law. Even the government can restrict speech.
Though you are right. You are free to use speech which has racist overtones to it. Just don't complain about being called a racist, which brings us back to:
ricardfromage
"You wanted the Germs, you get em"
I see this entirely differently but find your post insightful and interesting.
A long time ago I used to walk my Golden Retriever (who never retrieved a single golden thing by the way) on the beach in front of my house at the time. Lot's of people used to walk their dogs on that beach in the mornings, so much so in fact that the unofficial nick name of the place was called dog patch beach. By mid morning people would be at the beach so the dog walkers would be gone until the evening. One day an idiot let their very aggressive dog walk on the beach off leash and it attacked a child leaving the kid very messed up. As a result the city stopped all dog walking activities on that beach. One person (a recently released felon not that it matters) did something very stupid and as a result several people where made to pay for their actions. People had walked their dogs on that beach for decades without incident but one person does something heinous and everyone was made to suffer.
It goes that way all the time now. Somebody who is doing something that the majority of us find abhorrent and instead of punishing that one person and making a law that carries a significantly severe punishment as a deterrent for the next person considering said action we instead more often than not punish the good law abiding citizenry. This virus was created in a lab in Wuhan China. It is the Chinese virus like the Spanish Flu was the Spanish Flu et al. It isn't intended to "offend" Chinese people and ESPECIALLY Chinese Americans but then I want to know when we became a nation of people who should be censored when our very first amendment was written to say that we should never be because someone might be offended by what we say? I mean the reason we have free speech is so that we can offend each other with our ideas and words. Otherwise it is simply called speech.
I do appreciate what you are saying in that why should we say something that could might offend someone when there are other ways of communicating a thing thought idea that isn't seen as offensive but there is an exception to that line of thinking. It is that calling it anything other than the Chinese virus might could and does offend many other people. The virus came from China. The country of China should be held accountable for it's release onto the rest of the world wether it was intentional or not. Many people believe that by calling it the Chinese Virus that it keeps the understanding that the Chinese govt is responsible for this catastrophe in front of the public eye and in the minds of our politicians.
That is what I think anyways but I do appreciate where you are coming from.
Herby
How could Blake have known?
Being called a racist used to be a big deal that had to be backed up with evidence. In 2020 people are broadly painted as one. Certain people, along with their allies in the media make sure of it.
Remember “they’ll put y’all back in chains” comment by Sleepy before the 2012 elections, I’m no Mitt Romney fan but he doesn’t have a racist bone in his body. Had Ted Cruz been the nominee he’d be labeled a racist as well It’s all for political gain and sadly so many in this country just eat it up.
ricardfromage
"You wanted the Germs, you get em"
i'm staying out of this conversation for the most part but i've noticed a lot of people don't like referring to the chinese govt like this while simultaneously wanting to call the disease by its "official name"
I like it. I don't write the Chinese Communist Govt but I should or mean to every time I write about China being the genesis for this pandemic. I will start using the term the CCP like others have (Chinese Communist Party). My laziness can be fed by doing so. The pupil has become the pupil.
KINGS17
Smartest in the Room
- Apr 6, 2006
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I understand free speech very well. HF is a private site and can restrict speech. Judges do not allow speech which shows contempt in their courtroom. The government cannot restrict speech, and no one may restrict the speeches made by anyone in a public forum no matter how despicable you think the speech or thoughts behind it.
I will be the judge on what I consider racist speech. Some speech has racial overtones, and some does not depending on the context. People are free to call another person a racist. That's fine too, because if I don't agree with them it informs me on where they are coming from as well.
KINGS17
Smartest in the Room
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Maybe virus will come to be known as the "Xi-Flu". I cannot take the credit for this, but it may end up being appropriate.
ricardfromage
"You wanted the Germs, you get em"
Up here gas is significantly cheaper then Cali but yesterday I paid 99 cents a gallon (station was do a promotion) but on Saturday I filled up my other car for $1.51 cents a gallon. The average is about $1.58 but it is dropping all the time. I store about 80 gallons on my property up here (rotationally) for farm equipment timber truck side by sides etc and have saved a considerable amount of money since oil prices drop. It is both a blessing and a blight.
ricardfromage
"You wanted the Germs, you get em"
I see the above post as a statement of fact. I support those who don't to feel/say/react in whatever manner they see fit, no judgements but as for me I see this as being factual. Well said Herby.
King'sPawn
Enjoy the chaos
- Jul 1, 2003
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Context is always important. If someone says or writes something where they are showing intolerance to another race, then I have no issue with that person being called out, either by myself or others.
But I also don't feel it's appropriate to throw it out indiscriminately, either.
For example, I disagree with K17's use of the term Chinese Virus, but he's explained why he uses it. I know his position, so I won't call him racist.
At this point, with multiple, more specific, more neutral, and easier names, there's a red flag to me when someone insists on calling it "Chinese virus". People who are driven to blame China and create an agenda against Chinese people anoint the place of origin to push the attitude of who to blame. Not all people who say it are racists, but people with racist agendas say it. It's a matter of going out of your way to associate the virus with the Chinese since modern dialogue gives you exposure to the other options.
Though to be frank, I won't call someone a racist just because they use the term "Chinese virus" but I do adjust my dialogue when dealing with everyone - their choice of language being a factor.
In this case, I have less of a problem with the media calling the tefm racist than the term itself.
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redcard
System Poster
- Mar 12, 2007
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I don't believe referring to the virus as a Chinese virus or Wuhon Virus was inherently racists at the beginning of the pandemic especially considering how long it took for a consensus name to come out.
And I don't believe that any of you are inherently racists simply because you don't believe the term is racist.
But at this point, there's really no need for it. Its informal, its longer than typing covid, it doesn't add any new information, and so it seems pretty deliberate to me. It just seems like a kid holding his finger 2 inches from another kids face saying "I'm not touching you, I'm not touching you." I don't really care to argue that point, I probably won't bother to reply to anyone that wants to refute this because I care very little for the conversation, just putting it out there that its how it comes across to me.
This is a hockey message board. You all could be the nicest, kindest, helping old lady cross the roadest people in the world, but none of your actions mean anything here where we can't see them. All we have to know each other by are our posts and we can all see from the join dates that a lot of us have posted for a long time.
I already scroll past avatars and don't read posts of people who I've long decided don't know what the f*** they're talking about because they keep bringing up the same dumb criticisms of the same players and I doubt I'm the only long term poster that has developed that habit. So you all can post what you want, I don't care, but when the hockey discussion starts back up again you might find fewer people engaging you in conversation. And I certainly understand that people want to stick to their guns, but there's so many better places to die on the free speech hill than an off topic thread of a hockey message board.
And I don't believe that any of you are inherently racists simply because you don't believe the term is racist.
But at this point, there's really no need for it. Its informal, its longer than typing covid, it doesn't add any new information, and so it seems pretty deliberate to me. It just seems like a kid holding his finger 2 inches from another kids face saying "I'm not touching you, I'm not touching you." I don't really care to argue that point, I probably won't bother to reply to anyone that wants to refute this because I care very little for the conversation, just putting it out there that its how it comes across to me.
This is a hockey message board. You all could be the nicest, kindest, helping old lady cross the roadest people in the world, but none of your actions mean anything here where we can't see them. All we have to know each other by are our posts and we can all see from the join dates that a lot of us have posted for a long time.
I already scroll past avatars and don't read posts of people who I've long decided don't know what the f*** they're talking about because they keep bringing up the same dumb criticisms of the same players and I doubt I'm the only long term poster that has developed that habit. So you all can post what you want, I don't care, but when the hockey discussion starts back up again you might find fewer people engaging you in conversation. And I certainly understand that people want to stick to their guns, but there's so many better places to die on the free speech hill than an off topic thread of a hockey message board.
Matt13
Registered User
- Jul 9, 2004
- 5,005
- 1,633
Is it ok to laugh at Kung Flu? Asking for a friend who got a chuckle out of it.
ricardfromage
"You wanted the Germs, you get em"
I get you.
That said I see it like this. If someone is actually saying things that express a racist point of view and I mean actually racist things (derogatory terminology names etc) where their racism is 100% undeniable than I consider them to be racist and their pov's invalid (hatred is always going to be blinding to the truth so I don't consider the individuals pov to be of importance to rational thinking)
I don't consider someone to be racist simply because they interpret the facts differently than I do. Let's say "I am a Trump supporter". Many people see President Trump as a racist for some reason. So there are people who would consider me to also be a racist simply because they "feel" that I must support what they see as racist thoughts acts deeds of the President (none of which can be supported by any facts). I believe that you have to take each individual at their own word and where appropriate actions. I absolutely hate seal meat and think that people who kill seals and eat their meat are either primitive or ignorant. Where I used to live it was culturally appropriate for people to kill and eat seals. The people I knew who did so hated the taste of the meat but felt that they needed to keep up with their traditions and so they did. I spent years disliking the people who followed this cultural nonsense. Time passed and I spent more time getting to know these people and began to understand where they were coming from. I told them (there was a group of them living in one area and would meet as a group to make it easy) one day how I felt about what they were doing and how wrong I believed it was but that I had learned to love the people and found a common ground between their actions and them as a group.
They explained how important their traditions were to them and then uninvited me from any further activities. Was I a racist? I didn't dislike any of them based on the color of their skin or their national origins or the clothes they wore or any other reason except that they slaughtered and ate seals. Were they racist? I am mostly considered to be caucasian to those who don't know me but the only thing that they knew about me was that I wasn't an indigenous person who didn't like one of their traditions.
I know I am being very long winded (surprise!) but my point is that racism isn't typically so easily defined so to me using the term should only be for situations where the offending person is clearly stating a very derogatory opinion about another person/race based solely on the color of their skin. Otherwise terms like "Mexican" or other nationalities can be mislabeled as being racist when they are simply statements of fact. If I was standing next to someone who used the word "Mexican" in a derogatory manner I would go full yard sale on them in the same way I would if I was standing next to someone who insulted my wife daughter or other family members based the color of their skin or who they chose to have as a partner. I guess that is where I am coming from. People use the term racist for the very very wrong reasons today and it disgusts me to my core. Racist are always easy to define. Imo anyways.
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Lt Dan
F*** your ice cream!
ricardfromage
"You wanted the Germs, you get em"
Lt Dan
F*** your ice cream!
ricardfromage
"You wanted the Germs, you get em"
Truly everybody is Kungflu fighting. I laughed pretty hard at that song parody, No offense intended.
jfont
Registered User
So what you're trying to say is its okay to say chinese virus even if anti-asian sentiments and harassment are on the rise.. Got it.
I believe the speaker was saying that, at the time, no one is discriminating against the spanish or harassing spanish people here at that time. No one is discriminating or spitting on Germans for the German measles at the time or Middle easterners with MERS. But right now, with putrid leadership from this administration, Asians harassment is on the rise. And instead of stepping in and admonishing these acts, we hear nothing. So yes, it is racist now to call it chinese virus.
And not to mention, I know someone who was harrassed at the trader joe's yesterday. Yes, its on the rise, anecdotally and statistically. While I think its acceptable to say Chinese or Wuhan virus if without any of the lingering racism going on, the situation today is different.
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
Right. Context is clutch.
Some terms, though, are loaded. In this case, though members of this forum don't seem to be using it this way, this is a loaded term that some people are using to get their racist rocks off. Why use it if you can avoid it? It's not easier to type or more convenient. I can understand it as an attack on the Chinese government rather than people, but there are a lot of pretty brutal attacks on all kinds of Asian Americans right now, further enabled/encouraged by common use of the term. It can be a stepping stone to worse behavior. Maybe I'm a little sensitive to the context--I'm half middle eastern and after 9/11 man did I ever take a beating. There were a lot of 'casual' terms thrown at me by all sorts of people and though I have thick enough skin hearing stuff thrown around callously just encourages folks who DO have bad intentions to take them more public. It all happened again and more seriously after the recent San Bernardino shootings, where I got pushed into a rack at a clothing store AND pulled out of my car in a f***ing starbucks drive thru (by the cops) just for 'looking' middle eastern. Similarly, a few of my Asian friends working in healthcare of all things have been attacked verbally during work and physically after work--here in what i would consider to be much more tolerant california.
Racism doesn't have to be overt. It often isn't. Ignorance isn't an excuse. Intention matters.
I guess in the end I'm saying--use what you want to use, but be aware that language has power, and it seems more than some people think. And for sake of this forum, let's try to stop going down this rabbit hole and bring it back to the situation/virus.
Edit: well shit others definitely said it better than I did, especially @redcard . Guess i should have hit reload before posting.
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