Salary Cap: How much AAV are you willing to give Tyson Barrie on a 7-8 year extension?

[zeke]

That's an interesting last point there - giving up goals on the PP with a tired unit.

and you're right that the PP was worse last year - and there's no doubt that part of that was due to stacking the top unit.

but I think there's probably a better explanation - the whole point of stacking the top unit is to play them much more than the 2nd unit. But despite stacking the top unit, Babcock still split the time more evenly than most any other team in the league - which means that a much inferior 2nd unit was getting far too much PP time.

trying to figure out how to analyze this better.

the #5 slot was mixed up a bit this year because we never actually really stacked the top unit with Nylander.

so let's just see how the PP did with the big 4 on the top unit - Matthews, Tavares, Mitch, Rielly:

With Big 4: 10.08 gf/60 (2:15)
W/O Big 4: 5.65 gf/60 (1:29)

the previous year:

With Mitch/JVR: 13.2gf/60 (2:06)
With Auston/Willy: 7.38gf/60 (2:07)

and the year before that:

With Mitch/JVR: 9.34gf/60 (2:16)
With Auston/Willy: 9.43gf/60 (2:18)

So the stacked top unit was actually more lethal than any unit other than the JVR/Mitch unit in 17-18, while obviously the 2nd unit was the worst.

But it seems silly to me to stack the top unit and then barely play it any more than you played the unstacked units before.

 

[Gallagbi]

Except Zeek would have posted a per/60 stat like he usually does if it supported his opinion .

Nah not when a specific stat is posted. If he said Barrie stinks defensively then the ga/60 numbers come out

 

[zeke]

Except Zeek would have posted a per/60 stat like he usually does if it supported his opinion .

I wasn't using that stat to support my opinion. I was showing why that stat is bad.

I would never use any form of goals against to argue about the defensive ability of a defenseman.

 

[KuleminFan41]

The cap goes up? Jesus so that 11.6M×5 contract with a full NMC in the last year, lockout protected bonus laden deal is acceptable now is It? If I had of brought that in here before he was signed people would have fallen over laughing at how bad it was

It makes Eichel's deal look like an absolute steal your welcome Buffalo we just made you look competent

Don't spout that valuing winning over money bull****, anybody who's watched our higher end RFA'S and can even remotely spout something like that with a straight face beggars belief

Hey Barrie, our other high profile players over the last couple of years told us to **** off when we asked them to help the team out but how about It? Sounds like a plan alright

Yes. That's how this stuff works. The cap could very well be up around 100 million in about 2-3 years time. There's the sports betting data that could be sold by the NHL, there's the American TV deal that ends soon and the Seattle Franchise. All of this will impact the cap and increase it. The deal itself is fine, but with the cap growing significantly in the few years to come, you wont even think about the deal .

Clearly you don't understand how players get paid. Goal scorers get paid, Eichel hasn't hit 30 in his career yet, Matthews has hit 40(technically 3 times) and very well possibly can hit 50. That's why he gets paid more, go look at the top earners, usually they're guys who can consistently score above 30

I'm not sure what you're complaining about here? I'm pointing out a possible scenarios of what might happen with Tyson Barrie, I'm not sure why you're so annoyed about it. Like I said, there isn't exactly many contending teams out there with space that would fit that 8 million he wants, the Leafs are one with at least 14 million in space next year. He either signs here , or he doesn't, that is hardly a hot take by any means.

 

[Menzinger]

I think after 17/18, it was pretty reasonable to prefer Gardiner.
5v5 numbers:
Gardiner - 1.21 p/60 | 56 gf% | 51.3 xgf% | 28.2 QoT | 29.1 QoC
Barrie: 1.14 p/60 | 52 gf% | 42.3 xgf% | 28 QoT | 28.8 QoC

After this year, I'd go with Barrie. Especially post-injury for Gardiner

More folk should be open to having their opinions change as more info becomes available over time.

Way too many folks on here seem to think I once you take a position ut had to stay static and needs to be defended at all costs

 

[yubbers]

More folk should be open to having their opinions change as more info becomes available over time.

Way too many folks on here seem to think I once you take a position ut had to stay static and needs to be defended at all costs

Amen. Learning is fun.

 

[Mickey Marner]

0% chance I'd go 8 years, slim chance I'd go 7. 7.5-8 over 6 is tenable. Keep in mind Rielly, Dermott & Liljegren will need expansion draft protection. Do we keep Barrie and go 8:1? Keep Barrie and leave Liljegren/Dermott unprotected? Make a deal with Seattle? Or, perhaps maintain fluid RHD for the next two seasons and let Barrie walk.

 

[biotk]

That's an interesting last point there - giving up goals on the PP with a tired unit.

and you're right that the PP was worse last year - and there's no doubt that part of that was due to stacking the top unit.

but I think there's probably a better explanation - the whole point of stacking the top unit is to play them much more than the 2nd unit. But despite stacking the top unit, Babcock still split the time more evenly than most any other team in the league - which means that a much inferior 2nd unit was getting far too much PP time.

I, of course, agree that a stacked PP1 should be played a lot more than Babcock played them last year, and I had been a supporter of a stacked PP1 all throughout Matthews' first two year. Then the stacked PP1 last season started off on fire. But after that they often seemed frustrating to watch. It seemed as though teams had largely figured them out (the previous two years the two units had dramatically different game plans).

But, I simply accept that Babs is not going to play a stacked unit as much other teams would.

And I wonder some other things. When I looked at game 7s in which teams lost and their star players played less than 20 minutes - Ovi played like 18:22 the one game 7. It almost seemed as though the coach was reluctant to give him much ice time at 5v5 or allow him long shifts because he wanted to ensure that Ovi would be rested and ready to play the whole PP when one occurred. Ovi played the last 2:51 of that game, but up until that super long season ending shift, he had played 9:49 at 5v5. And while that looks absurd after the fact, at the time there seems to be some merit. If you have all your eggs in one PP basket, you want that PP to be as ready as possible.

 

[ULF_55]

Even strength goals against, last 3 years:

1.Ceci 230
17.Barrie 184
24.Zaitsev 179

some pretty good dmen there.

Hmm?

 

[MapleLeafs9]

More folk should be open to having their opinions change as more info becomes available over time.

Way too many folks on here seem to think I once you take a position ut had to stay static and needs to be defended at all costs

But he said Gardiner was the best 3 years ago!

 

[paulhiggins]

I wouldn't sign him to a 7-8 year deal. Let some dumb team do that and see how they'll like him in years 5,6,7,8.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Hmm?

Barrie is not good at playing defense

 

[Mess]

Barrie is not good at playing defense

With Barrie it will all be about if his Offensive contributions and flair and are they going to offset his Defensive liabilities and goals against, and taking the good with the bad and how much Cap $$ do you place on that.

He is currently asking north of $8 mil and currently due to cap retention only costing $2.75 mil, so he will require a +$6 mil extra investment to resign.

It might come down to Leafs retaining Jake Muzzin and using that $2.75 mil (of Barrie) to pay and resign Muzz in the $6-$6.5 mil range up from his current $4 mil.

If it comes down to keeping either/or it will be interesting to see which road the Leafs go down, as letting 1 walk basically frees up the cap to resign the other.

 

[zeke]

Hmm?

You missed some names.

 

[Twowingcantfly]

Barrie and Gardiner are not similar players. Gardiner is a puck mover, Barrie is a puck rusher. One creates offense through long range passing while the other does it by jumping up and actively participating in the play. One tilts play in terms of opportunities, while the other's strength is converting those opportunities directly. Barrie plays an active defense while Gardiner's defense is preemptive, reactive.

In Colorado Barrie's offence was needed. Here we already fill the net. Gardiner plays more east-west, and has a good possession game. Barrie is north-south. If we want to win the Cup, we need to have the better edge skater-puck possession team first. The days of 7-5 and 8-6 Stanley Cup winning champs are a thing of the past.

 

[New Liskeard]

0% chance I'd go 8 years, slim chance I'd go 7. 7.5-8 over 6 is tenable. Keep in mind Rielly, Dermott & Liljegren will need expansion draft protection. Do we keep Barrie and go 8:1? Keep Barrie and leave Liljegren/Dermott unprotected? Make a deal with Seattle? Or, perhaps maintain fluid RHD for the next two seasons and let Barrie walk.

There have been reports and discussions, that Liljegren will be exempt from the expansion draft.

 

[Twowingcantfly]

He puts up elite production. He puts up elite underlying metrics. He led all Colorado players in TOI in the playoffs, and was 5 minutes higher per game than any other D.

To think that his impact is equal to Gardiner, especially Gardiner of last year, is straight up delusional.

Barrie will benefit a lot of hockey pools. Gardiner will benefit a good possession team who prefer to keep a lead, over trading leads.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Barrie will benefit a lot of hockey pools. Gardiner will benefit a good possession team who prefer to keep a lead.

Gardiner will benefit nobody right now with his broken back. Barrie will benefit his team towards the goal of winning more than Gardiner ever could.

 

[ULF_55]

You missed some names.

You missed some names.

The other names were irrelevant to the Leafs off-season.

 

[zeke]

The other names were irrelevant to the Leafs off-season.

but very relevant to the question of whether that list actually told us anything about defense.

 

[zeke]

Barrie will benefit a lot of hockey pools. Gardiner will benefit a good possession team who prefer to keep a lead, over trading leads.

Jake still benefits quite a bit from soft comp early in his career.

In recent years, with similar QOC as Barrie, he actually hasn't been the possession monster that he was when he was getting sheltered usage.

over the past 2yrs 5v5, both of them getting similar 2nd tier quality of competition:

Gards: -0.3cfrel, +1.3xgfrel
Barrie: +1.3cfrel, -1.9xgfrel

 

[MyBudJT]

but very relevant to the question of whether that list actually told us anything about defense.

 

[ULF_55]

but very relevant to the question of whether that list actually told us anything about defense.

Certainly, and that's why my opinion on Ceci isn't like many here who suggest he's garbage. Play the toughest minutes for a bottom feeder and you might not have the best stats.

I've just never been high on Barrie, however I suppose if you've drafted well you can give up your #1 defender when you aren't a contender.

 

[zeke]

Certainly, and that's why my opinion on Ceci isn't like many here who suggest he's garbage. Play the toughest minutes for a bottom feeder and you might not have the best stats.

It'll be interesting to see how Ceci does. He certainly was in about as tough a position as any dman in hockey.

I've just never been high on Barrie, however I suppose if you've drafted well you can give up your #1 defender when you aren't a contender.

every fanbase loves to dream on their prospects, and Avs fans are sure hoping that their kids can step right in and replace him, but I think they're kidding themselves. Barrie was arguably their best player period down the stretch last year.

 

[BlueForever75]

Barrie is a very good defenseman and this season paired with Muzzin he will solidify our D as a great tandem.

Toronto literally robbed Colorado in their deal. I still cant believe we got Kerfoot in this deal along with Barrie. I am so looking forward to see these guys on our team.

The Marner situation will dictate what happens with Barrie. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Leafs trade Barrie mid-season for another dman with control. That to me would be great asset management, especially if they feel he wont be resigned.

I would start season with Barrie, and when Dermott comes back I would be open to trading him for a younger cost controlled dman and assets if indeed we wont be resigning him.