How long before Shero feels the pressure? Fire Shero?

[Triumph]

We acquired Subban to be a difference maker. He’s come in and played himself off the power play on a team with 1 power play point from it’s defense all season. That’s a joke.

I wasn't enamored of Subban's PP prowess when the Devils got him, so I really don't mind this development. He's off the PP in part because he's needed elsewhere - note that his total ice time is the same despite being taken off the power play. A player can get a lot of power play points and not be effective on the power play.

He’s the third highest paid defenseman in the league and he’s not even top 100 in defenseman scoring. That’s a joke.

This is more a reflection of the Devils' scoring woes and him being taken off the PP than anything else. He's probably owed an ES goal.

He’s a giant cap dump that we paid assets to acquire.

They paid assets to acquire him because it's near impossible to get a defenseman as good as him for 2 2nd round picks.

 

[VoidCreature]

I wasn't enamored of Subban's PP prowess when the Devils got him, so I really don't mind this development. He's off the PP in part because he's needed elsewhere - note that his total ice time is the same despite being taken off the power play. A player can get a lot of power play points and not be effective on the power play.



This is more a reflection of the Devils' scoring woes and him being taken off the PP than anything else. He's probably owed an ES goal.



They paid assets to acquire him because it's near impossible to get a defenseman as good as him for 2 2nd round picks.

This is something of a chicken and the egg debate. In my opinion an elite player creates offense independent of team cohesion. He is depended on to drive team performance through sublime contributions when he is on the ice, like how Hall used to even when he was on a bottom feeder.

Subban is a shell of who he used to be.

 

[Triumph]

This is something of a chicken and the egg debate. In my opinion an elite player creates offense independent of team cohesion. He is depended on to drive team performance through sublime contributions when he is on the ice, like how Hall used to even when he was on a bottom feeder.

Subban is a shell of who he used to be.

Defensemen cannot avoid the fact that most ES goals scored with them on the ice do not involve them getting a point. Subban has never had an IPP above 50% in his career. His highest mark was 44%, he's at 30% now; I suspect he will not be at 30% by season's end.

In 2013-14, Subban is credited with 101 shots on goal on the power play - that style of power play is on the outs in the NHL.

Subban is not taking over games. He's still playing effective hockey here.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Also, if you expected him to be an elite player here you weren't paying attention. Pretty much everyone knew he isn't that anymore.

 

[guitarguyvic]

What moves would’ve you done differently?

Who cares what I would or wouldn’t do? I’m not an NHL GM nor am I qualified to be one. Neither are you.

I am more than qualified as a long time fan and observer of hockey to judge the results of a GM’s decisions and team management. The results have been horrific thus far, that is my assessment. Now you and others may disagree with that assessment, but what either of us would hypothetically do in Ray’s shoes is irrelevant in that debate.

 

[guitarguyvic]

This isn't argument from authority. Argument from authority would be 'Shero's the GM therefore he knows more than you'. You guys are basically arguing 'Shero is the GM, therefore he SHOULD know more than us! We don't have to know anything except wins and losses.'

It is a variation of appeal to authority. Implying one must be willing to offer solutions (aka Taking on the role of a hypothetical authority on the subject) in order for their assessment of a problem to be valid...that is a fallacy.

Your last two sentences are incorrect, and also irrelevant.

 

[Triumph]

It is a variation of appeal to authority. Implying one must be willing to offer solutions to a problem (aka Taking on the role of a hypothetical authority on the subject) in order for their assessment of that problem to be valid...that is a fallacy.

Your last two sentences are incorrect, and also irrelevant.

The difference is that this message board isn't a logic contest. No one's arguing that there isn't a problem, at least I don't think anyone is - we can all acknowledge that this team's results are not what they should be. It's just very boring when people just say 'Oh, the team sucks.' and then that's all they've got. 'The team should be better'. Well, no shit. You've really done it again. Another brilliant post. What trenchant insight you offer on the league and its players.

 

[VoidCreature]

The difference is that this message board isn't a logic contest. No one's arguing that there isn't a problem, at least I don't think anyone is - we can all acknowledge that this team's results are not what they should be. It's just very boring when people just say 'Oh, the team sucks.' and then that's all they've got. 'The team should be better'. Well, no ****. You've really done it again. Another brilliant post. What trenchant insight you offer on the league and its players.

Sometimes you just have to vent.

 

[guitarguyvic]

The difference is that this message board isn't a logic contest. No one's arguing that there isn't a problem, at least I don't think anyone is - we can all acknowledge that this team's results are not what they should be. It's just very boring when people just say 'Oh, the team sucks.' and then that's all they've got. 'The team should be better'. Well, no ****. You've really done it again. Another brilliant post. What trenchant insight you offer on the league and its players.

I’ll indulge, even though it’s not at all necessary to evaluate Ray’s performance.

Here’s what should have been differently. First off, attempt to draft a top defenseman early on in the rebuild knowing they are hard to find and take longer to develop. With forwards, include bigger skilled guys not just euro midgets. With the goaltending, I was never high on Cory from the almost the beginning. His age did not match the rebuild timeline, and evidence of his decline had already presented itself two years ago, at which time I would have formulated a plan B for the goaltending situation. That plan would include attempting to obtain a starter who could put up average goaltending at minimum. I also recognized Hynes for the shit coach that he is three years ago...to be honest I wouldn’t have hired him to begin with. With the exception of castron I don’t think I would have hired anyone from Shittsburgh. They are not the type of franchise I would want to model. From a philosophy/vision standpoint, I would make it crystal clear that we will be a team that combines our defensive roots with a skilled but smart offensive focus; responsible and smart in all three zones with an unrelenting desire to possess the puck is what we would be known for. I would have incorporated that vision into the existing “sum is greater than the individual parts” culture Lou had already instilled in this franchise.

it’s hard for me to say what I would have done differently this past offseason considering there’s so much Ray did before that, that I would not have done in the first place to get us to that situation.

 

[Emperoreddy]

A plan B for the goaltending would have been someone on Domingue’s level.

They were not going to spend major assets and money on a third goalie. It wasn’t going to happen. We don’t really have the assets to even do that by camp as we traded a bunch of decent value draft picks for roster players (which we needed to do).

Blackwood earned a spot on this team (and continues to do so as all but one of our wins have come with him in net). Cory’s contract is a big hurdle and his improved play earned him a shot.

Edit: it’s also forgotten that both goalies looked excellent in preseason. They earned their chances.

 

[NJDevs26]

Yeah people keep ripping him for going too long with Cory, how many contracts get bought out with three years and $18 million left on it, that aren't Yashin or DiPietro? A buyout wasn't realistic last offseason and the Cory contract was baked in to what he had to deal with. If you wanted to criticize him for anything vis-a-vis Cory perhaps he should have traded him early in his tenure when you could have got something decent back for him and you were supposed to be rebuilding.

 

[MadDevil]

Castron was not from Pittsburgh by the way. He was from Columbus.

 

[NJDevs26]

Castron was not from Pittsburgh by the way. He was from Columbus.

Honestly I was relieved he didn't get someone from Pittsburgh to be the scouting director cause they were awful at drafting when he was there.

 

[R8Devs]

Honestly I was relieved he didn't get someone from Pittsburgh to be the scouting director cause they were awful at drafting when he was there.

They were pretty bad before Shero hired Randy Sexton as assistant director of amateur scouting(although they did draft Muzzin but they never signed him). But from 2012-2014 they drafted Guentzel, Kapanen, Murray, Jarry, Maatta, and Sundqvist. Which considering where they usually draft is pretty decent especially compared to what the Devils have in that same time period.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Didn’t Pitt also win a cup after he left with guys drafted during his tenure?

 

[Triumph]

I’ll indulge, even though it’s not at all necessary to evaluate Ray’s performance.

Here’s what should have been differently. First off, attempt to draft a top defenseman early on in the rebuild knowing they are hard to find and take longer to develop. With forwards, include bigger skilled guys not just euro midgets. With the goaltending, I was never high on Cory from the almost the beginning. His age did not match the rebuild timeline, and evidence of his decline had already presented itself two years ago, at which time I would have formulated a plan B for the goaltending situation. That plan would include attempting to obtain a starter who could put up average goaltending at minimum. I also recognized Hynes for the **** coach that he is three years ago...to be honest I wouldn’t have hired him to begin with. With the exception of castron I don’t think I would have hired anyone from ****tsburgh. They are not the type of franchise I would want to model. From a philosophy/vision standpoint, I would make it crystal clear that we will be a team that combines our defensive roots with a skilled but smart offensive focus; responsible and smart in all three zones with an unrelenting desire to possess the puck is what we would be known for. I would have incorporated that vision into the existing “sum is greater than the individual parts” culture Lou had already instilled in this franchise.

it’s hard for me to say what I would have done differently this past offseason considering there’s so much Ray did before that, that I would not have done in the first place to get us to that situation.

The Devils have drafted plenty of big forwards under Shero/Castron. They drafted McLeod, Bastian, and Maltsev in year 1. Those are three big forwards. But yes, draft 'bigger skilled guys'. They had 2 picks in the top 60. Year 2, they drafted Zetterlund and Popugaev. Year 3, I agree, they didn't draft any big forwards (correction, they drafted Sharaganovich), and they didn't do that in 2019. But this is one of those things that won't reflect at the NHL level yet, or even close.

Castron came from Columbus, not Pittsburgh.

Schneider was always going to be a problem - I disagree that they should've used resources to deal for a goaltender. Now they will have to, though. I think it can be argued that they should've tried to trade Schneider and indeed Shero did ask Schneider if he wanted a trade in 2017 and he said no. So that makes things much more difficult on that front. There were so many other things that needed fixing on the team at the time. Kinkaid was free and he was adequate for 2 seasons and then horrific for the third. He's bad so far in Montreal at age 30 - that's not really to be expected.

On balance, defensemen drafted in the 1st round do worse than forwards drafted in the 1st round. So while I see the argument for drafting defensemen first, it's easy to say that now because McLeod looks bad - if McLeod were on this team and contributing, that wouldn't be a large concern.

This was always going to be hard because of how far behind the franchise was. Mistakes like Mueller don't help.

 

[MadDevil]

Didn’t Pitt also win a cup after he left with guys drafted during his tenure?

Sheary, Dumoulin, Rust, and Murray were all drafted by Shero and played for Hynes in the AHL. Granted, those players aren't big name stars (and having two of the best centers in the world on your team helps too) but they did still help them win.

Either way I think comparing what Shero did with a team that was in "win now" mode with one scouting staff to what he's doing with a rebuilding team with a different scouting staff is kind of pointless.

If you want to throw heat at him for sticking with Hynes too long, that's more than fair though.

 

[My3Sons]

I don’t buy this whole notion that I would have to be against Shero’s moves in the summer to say it like I see it in the now. I’m not being paid to be right about personnel decisions, Shero is. I expect him to know more than me and other posters on here.

Vatanen was a good pickup, can’t argue with that. But Subban is a complete joke this year. He’s barely better than someone like Mueller. Gusev has been meh as well. Simmonds has been good at least.

Whatever anyone thought about the moves when they were made, that’s where we’re at right now. Shero went shopping in the summer and came up mostly empty. That’s just a fact.

Hindsight is always 20/20

 

[Emperoreddy]

Most people were also ok with the idea of giving Hynes one chance with a decent roster that wasn’t in the infirmary.

It didn’t work and he most likely won’t be employed by this team past the summer.

 

[NjDevsRR]

Honestly I was relieved he didn't get someone from Pittsburgh to be the scouting director cause they were awful at drafting when he was there.

I believe Shero and Castron worked together in the 90s in Ottawa.

 

[haak84]

Most people were also ok with the idea of giving Hynes one chance with a decent roster that wasn’t in the infirmary.

It didn’t work and he most likely won’t be employed by this team past the summer.

He had a healthy lineup that brought the devils to the playoffs a season earlier. Received above average goaltending from the starter and the devils were marginally better than where they’re at now at the same point last season. I do not understand this narrative. The devils players started hitting the infirmary for a stubbed toe once management realized it was a lost season. They were cooked before hall went down

look back at the hynes extension thread. Everyone was grabbing popcorn because most people weren’t cool with the move.

 

[haak84]

Devils with a healthy lineup at this point last season:

9-10-4

Devils record right now

8-11-4

Two point difference

starting goalie save % up until this point last season:

.912%

last years healthy team was no different than this years. Enough with this narrative that last year was an anomaly and the only reason it happened was because of goaltending and injuries. I think that has been debunked.

the only difference is last years devils went on a stretch of playing the best teams in the league over the next month and got absolutely destroyed. The team realized this then went into tank mode. TBD if that happens this year.

 

[NjDevsRR]

Devils with a healthy lineup at this point last season:

9-10-4

Devils record right now

8-11-4

Two point difference

starting goalie save % up until this point last season:

.912%

last years healthy team was no different than this years. Enough with this narrative that last year was an anomaly and the only reason it happened was because of goaltending and injuries. I think that has been debunked.

the only difference is last years devils went on a stretch of playing the best teams in the league over the next month and got absolutely destroyed. The team realized this then went into tank mode. TBD if that happens this year.

Last years team, and this years team is lacking leadership in the locker room. Say what you want about their play but guys like Moore Lovejoy Boyle Noesen Gibbons and Stafford were fantastic leaders. We are missing those voices on this roster.

 

[VoidCreature]

Hindsight is always 20/20

My point is Shero needs to be better than this. All signs coming from management and ownership was that this was a turnaround year. Shero even said he wishes he had seen the red flags in training camp.

The whole front office made a big misevaluation.

 

[Bleedred]

As I've said with the goalies all along.

I would have signed Lehner, started Blackwood in the AHL and started the year with Lehner and Schneider. Did Blackwood deserve to be in the NHL this year after his play last year? Yes, and he would have been after Cory either inevitably got injured or demoted to the AHL by the middle of November, which is what wound up happening anyway.

Maybe Shero did try to sign Lehner though? For $5 million for one year (even if it was more than that for one year) there was no reason to not at least throw out an offer. Shero would have been really stupid not to, but because we don't know for a fact that he didn't, I won't shred him for that one.

I would have went HARD after Lehner, but not anybody else. Varlamov's contract has WAYYYYY too much term and he might be the next Cory. He's always getting injured and missing time anyway, that we probably would have ended up with a Blackwood/Domingue tandem by now, as Varlamov would have likely played much more with us than he has with the Islanders so far. And Varlamov would have still had 4 years left after this one.