How long before Shero feels the pressure? Fire Shero?

[haak84]

It does?

Not sure why you just bolded that part of the sentence. The lineup changes combined with the lack of accountability with hynes reminds me of Mickey and the Mets. With Brodie telling Mickey how to make lineups. He was nothing more than a figurehead just like it appears hynes is.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

What is the basis of your thinking on this?

 

[devilsblood]

And sure, he should be graded on a curve accordingly. But it’s Year Five of the Shero era and the Devils are currently sitting 30th overall, are stuck with some dicey contracts that Shero gave out and/or acquired, Hall is heading down the Tavares career path, and despite falling into 2 #1 overall picks, there is no real evidence the corner is about to be turned.

I dunno...if y’all are happy with him, good on you. I just can’t think of another fan base that is so comfortable with the GM of team that is this bad in year 5 of a rebuild despite good lottery fortune.

To be fair, we were thinking this offseason was a very good one for shero, so we are still getting used to the idea that it was not as good as we thought. The critiques of Shero have been ramping up.

 

[devilsblood]

View attachment 283869

Maybe he thinks Hynes is a good coach and the issues of the team this year are not on him.

I dunno, this "slave to the computer" thing just looks like one of those internet narratives based on nothing that people go on about as if there is some real evidence to back it up.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Maybe he thinks Hynes is a good coach and the issues of the team this year are not on him.

I dunno, this "slave to the computer" thing just looks like one of those internet narratives based on nothing that people go on about as if there is some real evidence to back it up.

Three of the last four years, the team is among the three worst teams in the league. That the coach is still here speaks to two possibilities, the GM doesn’t think the coach matters and it’s a make work position for patronage or he thinks Hynes is a good coach, in which case he is so stupid he can’t legally handle his own affairs.

 

[haak84]

Maybe he thinks Hynes is a good coach and the issues of the team this year are not on him.

Sounds like

narratives based on nothing that people go on about as if there is some real evidence to back it up.

Of course it is this is Internet forum. At this point, Ray has to see something that most humans are not seeing. hynes is not getting results and looks to be outmatched. So he’s either following his intuition or some machine learning models that provide the most optimal matchup based on millions of simulations.

Either way this is the place for speculation.

 

[devilsblood]

Not sure why you just bolded that part of the sentence. The lineup changes combined with the lack of accountability with hynes reminds me of Mickey and the Mets. With Brodie telling Mickey how to make lineups. He was nothing more than a figurehead just like it appears hynes is.

Mickey was canned after just two seasons despite having a above .500 win percentage.

And Brodie was only at the helm this past season, a season in which Mickey and the Mets were 10 games over .500.

So I don't see the situations being similar.

 

[devilsblood]

Sounds like



Of course it is this is Internet forum. At this point, Ray has to see something that most humans are not seeing. hynes is not getting results and looks to be outmatched. So he’s either following his intuition or some machine learning models that provide the most optimal matchup based on millions of simulations.

Either way this is the place for speculation.

Note the "maybe".

 

[haak84]

Mickey was canned after just two seasons despite having a above .500 win percentage.

And Brodie was only at the helm this past season, a season in which Mickey and the Mets were 10 games over .500.

So I don't see the situations being similar.

Ok I follow both teams pretty heavily and there was word that Brodie was making pitching changes and telling Mickey what to do. There were riffs between Brodie and Mickey that led to his firing. This offseason they could have went with an experienced successful old school manager in girardi but they chose to go the more player friendly route in the first year manager Beltran. Whether or not he’s as passive as Mickey is tbd but I don’t have my hopes up as baseball seems to be going the way of the manager being little more than a clubhouse coach and figure head.

 

[devilsblood]

Three of the last four years, the team is among the three worst teams in the league. That the coach is still here speaks to two possibilities, the GM doesn’t think the coach matters and it’s a make work position for patronage or he thinks Hynes is a good coach, in which case he is so stupid he can’t legally handle his own affairs.

I don't know about the bolded, but I do think it's the latter.

Analytics can tell you if a players is good or not, but they can't tell you how to play hockey. This is not baseball.

 

[devilsblood]

Ok I follow both teams pretty heavily and there was word that Brodie was making pitching changes and telling Mickey what to do. There were riffs between Brodie and Mickey that led to his firing. This offseason they could have went with an experienced successful old school manager in girardi but they chose to go the more player friendly route in the first year manager Beltran. Whether or not he’s as passive as Mickey is tbd but I don’t have my hopes up as baseball seems to be going the way of the manager being little more than a clubhouse coach and figure head.

I don't disagree that most of baseball has gone the way of the analytics. Houston has, Skanks have, most teams have.

But how does that make the Mickey and Hynes situations similar? Mickey was under BVW for one season, coached his team to a 86-76 record and was fired.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I don't know about the bolded, but I do think it's the latter.

Analytics can tell you if a players is good or not, but they can't tell you how to play hockey. This is not baseball.

Have you ever listened to people who are into analytics? Whether or not they’ve ever put on a jock strap in their lives, they are certain they know more than everyone else who has ever played, coached and/or ran a team. And when their models fail to predict anything, it’s luck and aren’t you so stupid for suggesting they don’t know what they’re talking about. It’s applied astrology.

 

[haak84]

I don't disagree that most of baseball has gone the way of the analytics. Houston has, Skanks have, most teams have.

But how does that make the Mickey and Hynes situations similar? Mickey was under BVW for one season, coached his team to a 86-76 record and was fired.

Not similar in tenure but similar in the way they are used.

if you watched the Mets some of the moves they made were mind boggling and it felt like Mickey had no say in managerial decisions. It feels that way with hynes

I get what you’re saying with hockey analytics not having the same impact on coaching as baseball but I think you underestimate that influence. Analytics can do a lot more than tell you if a player is good or not. It will select optimal lineups. It would influence coaching strategy as well.

I will say that if it didn’t matter who the coach is then why wouldn’t shero replace hynes with just about anybody? I don’t know. I just don’t know why he’s still here at this point. Maybe it’s because he’s really good at all the other aspects of being a coach besides coaching hockey. Shero isn’t so worried about that because that’s not so much the coaches job anymore. It’s more about handling the locker room, handling the press and projecting stability to protect the gm/owners

 

[devilsblood]

Have you ever listened to people who are into analytics? Whether or not they’ve ever put on a jock strap in their lives, they are certain they know more than everyone else who has ever played, coached and/or ran a team. And when their models fail to predict anything, it’s luck and aren’t you so stupid for suggesting they don’t know what they’re talking about. It’s applied astrology.

Well I assume you are talking about internet message board posters in which case they are just not that informed. They are to NHL level analytics as beer leaguers are to NHL players.

And I just don't see evidence that the Devils are driven by that. Unless we think our analytics guys value constantly changing lines, and constantly being outshot.

 

[devilsblood]

Not similar in tenure but similar in the way they are used.

if you watched the Mets some of the moves they made were mind boggling and it felt like Mickey had no say in managerial decisions. It feels that way with hynes

I get what you’re saying with hockey analytics not having the same impact on coaching as baseball but I think you underestimate that influence. Analytics can do a lot more than tell you if a player is good or not. It will select optimal lineups. It would influence coaching strategy as well.

I will say that if it didn’t matter who the coach is then why wouldn’t shero replace hynes with just about anybody? I don’t know. I just don’t know why he’s still here at this point. Maybe it’s because he’s really good at all the other aspects of being a coach besides coaching hockey. Shero isn’t so worried about that because that’s not so much the coaches job anymore. It’s more about handling the locker room, handling the press and projecting stability to protect the gm/owners

So let's say the analytics are influencing lineups.

Then why are they changing so often? Are there some stats which suggest constantly changing lineup improves performance? I've never seen them. We've also seen lines that performed well stats wise that were then quickly broken up.

I'm just not seeing the evidence. I'm see the opposite actually.

 

[haak84]

So let's say the analytics are influencing lineups.

Then why are they changing so often? Are there some stats which suggest constantly changing lineup improves performance? I've never seen them. We've also seen lines that performed well stats wise that were then quickly broken up.

I'm just not seeing the evidence. I'm see the opposite actually.

I don’t know what stats the devils are using but it reminds me of the constant shifting of batting orders in baseball. I could see slight variation in winning percentages based off of moving a few people from one spot in the lineup to another against a particular team. Each player has strengths which would play into the analysis of the opposing teams. So even if a lineup worked against Montreal it won’t against the Bruins because of that teams strengths/weaknesses. That would explain breaking up lines that worked in one game to the next.

This constant shifting of lineups has also been a new thing this season and we just happened to hire a new director of analytics.

 

[Devils731]

I don’t know what stats the devils are using but it reminds me of the constant shifting of batting orders in baseball. I could see slight variation in winning percentages based off of moving a few people from one spot in the lineup to another against a particular team. Each player has strengths which would play into the analysis of the opposing teams. So even if a lineup worked against Montreal it won’t against the Bruins because of that teams strengths/weaknesses. That would explain breaking up lines that worked in one game to the next.

This constant shifting of lineups has also been a new thing this season and we just happened to hire a new director of analytics.

I feel that it’s as consistent as taxes that fans complain that this season or this coach is messing with the lines too much and not letting chemistry sink in. I can’t think of the last time I didn’t see complaints about the devils changing the lineup too much.

Lines just aren’t as consistent as people think due to performance and injuries.

 

[haak84]

There was a bit of dislike for Tyler: Eakins interview with TSN Hockey Analytics

It seems Tyler Dellow likes to be integrated with the whole coaching staff.

I feel that it’s as consistent as taxes that fans complain that this season or this coach is messing with the lines too much and not letting chemistry sink in. I can’t think of the last time I didn’t see complaints about the devils changing the lineup too much.

Lines just aren’t as consistent as people think due to performance and injuries.

yes lineups change but this season is on another level. The bottom 3 lines are interchangeable and shift from game to game. This is a strategy.

 

[McDuffz88]

Well I can tell people changed their minds alot recently so I changed the poll so you can change your vote.

 

[haak84]

I think hiring dellows was our coaching change this offseason.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Didn’t Pitt also win a cup after he left with guys drafted during his tenure?

stop it with your facts

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Ray Shero is a slave to the notion that coaching doesn’t matter. Just do whatever he and the computer says. If it doesn’t result in wins, there are a million excuses you can throw out there. That’s why he’s still employed.

A lot of GMs took advantage of Peter Chiarelli. A lot of GMs know how to take advantage of teams that have cap problems. Every GM can pick the top ranked prospect in the draft.

But not very GM is a consistent loser like Shero and very few GMs have the chutzpah to intentionally lose season after season. He has the perfect boss in Josh Harris who has pursued the exactly same strategy in Philly, but this time around has a pliant group of sports writers that cover the team that don’t ask too many questions.

Shero should be fired.

This is nonsense.

There was a legitimate debate with Nico vs. Nolan. Please do not act like there was. Him and Castron have also drafted quite well in OTHER rounds aside from #1 overall.

 

[guitarguyvic]

This is nonsense.

There was a legitimate debate with Nico vs. Nolan. Please do not act like there was. Him and Castron have also drafted quite well in OTHER rounds aside from #1 overall.

How are defining "drafted well" when most of those prospects haven't proven anything yet?

 

[MartyOwns]

How are defining "drafted well" when most of those prospects haven't proven anything yet?

it. takes. time.

 

[guitarguyvic]

it. takes. time.

Well yes isn’t that the point? How can one declare these draft picks as accomplishments when they are still unknowns?