Red Sox/MLB Hot Stove Part 2: Lockout Edition - 6 games lost, 156 to go
- Thread starter smithformeragent
- Start date
- Status
McGarnagle
Yes.
- Aug 5, 2017
- 29,978
- 40,915
There had been experimental use of steroids in baseball as early as the 60s (Mickey Mantle apparently tried a cocktail if steroids and hormones while battling Maris for the home run race), and in the 70s there was more use of it, but really Canseco was the first guy to make it a systemic thing in the mid-80s. But juicing really went hardcore after about 1995 or so. Definitely ramped up to a new level after the 1998 HR race. Average players saw the money that hitting dingers would bring in, and top players, especially Barry Bonds, became obsessed with being the best and went ham on them.
A-Rod was always on something, but it definitely ramped up when he went to Texas and had to justify the contract he signed, especially after Barry Bonds had just broken the record himself.
A-Rod was always on something, but it definitely ramped up when he went to Texas and had to justify the contract he signed, especially after Barry Bonds had just broken the record himself.
Smitty93
Registered User
- Dec 6, 2012
- 8,258
- 9,441
This is always the way I've felt. I don't like how sports halls of fame have limits on ballots because it should be yes or no. You are or you aren't.
I'm also of the opinion that if you have to spend more than a couple minutes convincing me a player's a Hall of Famer, then they aren't. Hall of Fame is best of the best, so it really shouldn't require a discussion.
Unfortunately, that's not how things work and when you say Harold Baines is a Hall of Famer, then the whole thing gets blown up.
LouJersey
Registered User
I just find it funny Sox fans were pretty anti Clemens, Arod and Bonds until their own steroid user came up for election. I also find it funny like you said voters and baseball all of a sudden became holier than thou on steroid users when it was obvious they were using and they all were too afraid to write or say anything at the time
McGarnagle
Yes.
- Aug 5, 2017
- 29,978
- 40,915
I stopped caring a long time ago, let them all in, and Pete Rose too.
Anti-steroid hysteria was a 'think of the children' moral panic launched by government officials striving for clout. MLB should test players and ban substances for health reasons and all, but for those who predated enforcement, I'm not worked up. Not like Willie Mays and Hank Aaron weren't popping amphetamines every night. If everyone is doing it around the league, is it even cheating anymore? I give the Astros players a lot of shit for what they've done (both sign stealing and doctoring the balls), but to some extent lots of teams were doing the same thing (the Sox were even rakes over the coals for it after the Astros made the coordinated effort to throw Cora under the bus and scapegoat him, but they ultimately got cleared of wrongdoing aside from a little fine for a video replay monitor being in the hallway) and like half the pitchers in the league probably use tack, so I'm not going to exclude Correa or Altuve from HOF consideration for it.
Considering the Red Sox had Jose Canseco for a couple years in the 90s tells you that they weren't innocent on steroids either. I hate to say it, but look at Nomar's body on that Sports Illustrated cover, you think he did that naturally? And that suddenly he happened to be injury prone and unable to recover quickly after the crackdown on PEDs?
As long as I can pretend that Griffey and Pedro were clean, I can accept anything else.
Smitty93
Registered User
- Dec 6, 2012
- 8,258
- 9,441
I've always been pro-Bonds and Clemens for the Hall, but I also think my generation has a different view on the steroid era. Saying that, I've never understood Ortiz getting thrown in as a steroid guy. I get that people point to his name being on that list from survey testing in 2003, but there was never any mention of what he tested for. To me, the fact that 75% of his career (and the most successful part) came after testing began and he never failed a test in that period is good enough to not include him with guys like ARod and Manny.
LouJersey
Registered User
Piazza got held back because of "concern". Bagwell as well. Thome...list goes on. Ortiz is a no brainer going off stats, but should get taxed if the other guys did.
22Brad Park
Registered User
Chevalier du Clavier
Écrivain de ferrage
- Jul 20, 2005
- 4,472
- 3,336
Screwball: https://www.netflix.com/title/81047680
If you have a Netflix account, you can watch it at the link above. It only deals with the involvement of Tony Bosch, who supplied them to ARod, Manny, Braun, etc. It's a pretty extensive documentary that also reveals how corrupt Manfred is.
What irks me is the holier than thou BBWAA. Roids was the rising tide that raised all ships, and the writers, who certainly couldn't have been ignorant of the scope or depth of the problem, benefitted handsomely from having cool shit to write about. Being a willful participant in the hype back then and vote-withholding snob now just reeks of hypocrisy.
This Sox fan was never anti Clemens. I loved him and then he went to New York. It is in my DNA to hate the Yankees but once he left NY, I went back to loving him.
To me, Roger Clemens is my childhood.
EverettMike
FIRE DON SWEENEY INTO THE SUN
We're roughly the same age, and I can honestly say I have never in my life hated an athlete more than Roger Clemens. The Texas Conman was a fat f*** for 3.5 of his last 4 years here. Got in shape for a contract run at the end of his time here, said he'd never sign anywhere else unless it was close to his home. Then went to Toronto, roided up, forced his way to the Yankees, and became baseball's biggest diva for years.
He then blamed everyone close to him for as his defense for why he didn't do the steroids he obviously did. And now he wants us to pretend like he's some beloved former Red Sox player. f*** him. I'd tell him this to his face too.
And before anyone says, "At least all of his transgressions are related to his baseball career and not off the field issues," search "Mindy McCready."
I wasn’t heavily into baseball to know everything that was going on with Clemens at the time but I know a lot of people feel the same way you do.
I do remember the Mindy McCready stuff tho. Was just sad all around and really destroyed her.
May she Rest In Peace.
McGarnagle
Yes.
- Aug 5, 2017
- 29,978
- 40,915
Loved Clemens from the time I discovered baseball until 1996. Probably knew him from Zest soap commercials before I ever even watched a baseball game. From 1997 onward I absolutely hated him, which got even more intense after he went to the Yankees and his roid rage antics there. I still cannot believe he wasn't ejected on the spot for throwing a jagged bat at Mike Piazza. Still disliked him in Houston.
For the last 7 or 8 years there seems to have been some reconciliation and he's showing up to Fenway for appearances and reunions and such. To some extent I've grown to remember and appreciate the good times and his Red Sox career, which should be celebrated. But he'll never reach full forgiveness for his behavior and betrayal.
Boggs went to the Yankees, but I think we all overlook that and accept him as a Red Sox guy. Ellsbury came back last year even when he was still under contract to new York, people don't care about that rivalry as much anymore. Johnny Damon is the one I really feel bad about for how he was vilified when he didn't receive an offer from the Sox. But Clemens not only went here and lied, he was just a dick the whole time.
For the last 7 or 8 years there seems to have been some reconciliation and he's showing up to Fenway for appearances and reunions and such. To some extent I've grown to remember and appreciate the good times and his Red Sox career, which should be celebrated. But he'll never reach full forgiveness for his behavior and betrayal.
Boggs went to the Yankees, but I think we all overlook that and accept him as a Red Sox guy. Ellsbury came back last year even when he was still under contract to new York, people don't care about that rivalry as much anymore. Johnny Damon is the one I really feel bad about for how he was vilified when he didn't receive an offer from the Sox. But Clemens not only went here and lied, he was just a dick the whole time.
EverettMike
FIRE DON SWEENEY INTO THE SUN
Will McDonough gave him the name the Texas Conman. The most accurate nickname ever.
Will was never wrong when he would give guys nicknames.
With Clemens I try to remember his time with the Sox over everything else when it comes to the Hall of Fame. The off the field shit is terrible but that’s between him and the people he hurt/lied to.
ellsbury got screwed by doctors who kept saying he could play when it was clear he couldn’t. When he stuck up for himself he was used as the scapegoat by management and media. To me he will always be a Red Sox. I thought it was fantastic when he came out in a Sox jersey last season while being paid by the Yankees. The ultimate chef’s kiss.
I was still young when Boggs left but he never disparaged the Sox after he left and has always embraced the team since he retired. Hard to hate a guy like that.
As for Damon, I don’t feel bad whatsoever. Guy couldn’t handle that the Sox weren’t going to re-sign him so he made it his goal to stick it to the club and fans. Thanks for the championship now gtfo.
N o o d l e s
Registered User
By Dan Shaughnessy Globe Columnist,Updated January 6, 2022
I am here today to celebrate and applaud John Henry.
Words you never thought you would read.
Here’s the deal. The Major League Baseball Network terminated an outstanding reporter, Ken Rosenthal, evidently because MLB commissioner Rob Manfred thought Kenny was being too mean to the commish and his ideas. By any measure, it goes down as one of the most idiotic management moves in MLB Network history.
Rosenthal is fair and smart, universally respected in big league baseball — by fans, owners, players, team officials, and reporters. Rosenthal is the goods. It is incredibly petty and short-sighted for Manfred to eliminate Rosenthal’s podium just because he can.
You can’t fool fans. Or viewers. Or readers. They always get it.
Henry is no Manfred. There no doubt have been plenty of times when the owner of the Red Sox — who is also owner of the Globe — would have preferred that my thoughts not run in his newspaper. Yet I am still here. Unfortunately for MLB Network viewers, Rosenthal didn’t have a boss who understood the role of the media, was willing to take some hits, and let the viewers make up their own minds.
Henry bought the Globe in the autumn of 2013. It was a conflict of interest then, it is a conflict of interest now. From the public’s perception, it clouds the great work our great reporters do. We are in a no-win position. If we support anything the Sox do, we are in the bag. If we get a scoop, it was spoon-fed from the owner. If, on the other hand, we get beat on a story, we are stooges.
I have been covering the Red Sox for more than 40 years. My opinions have been independent of ownership, whether it was Jean Yawkey, Haywood Sullivan, John Harrington, or John Henry. In my view, the Red Sox are a public trust, and we hold the owners accountable to this unique charge. Sox owners always must answer to the great, hard-core baseball fans of New England.
Henry owned the Sox for more than a decade before he bought the Globe. A lot of stuff happened in those years. The Red Sox shattered the Curse of the Bambino and won a couple of World Series.
Henry and I had a good professional relationship in those sweet years of owner/reporter independence. We took a boat ride together to Bainbridge when the Sox were playing the Mariners in Seattle. I went to his house for dinner to watch the Sox play a road game in Kansas City. We regularly went back and forth on email.
It all started to go south in 2009 when David Ortiz’s name surfaced in a New York Times report on MLB players who had tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs in 2003 baseline testing that was supposed to be anonymous. In the wake of that news, I reassessed the championship of 2004, in which Papi and oft-caught-cheater Manny Ramirez overcame Yankee steroid guys Andy Pettitte, Gary Sheffield, Jason Giambi, and Alex Rodriguez and concluded “our cheaters were better than their cheaters.”
Things have never been the same since. Henry stopped returning my calls and emails.
Things went downhill in a big way after the Sox fired Terry Francona at the end of the 2011 season. When Francona was out of baseball in 2012, I wrote a book with the ex-manager in which Francona called out his former bosses, saying they do not love baseball.
Henry/Shaughnessy relations were particularly strained after the book, and there was considerable interest regarding the book’s sources. During this time, Henry went on the radio, called me a “ridiculous writer,” and challenged my credibility as a truth-teller.
When Henry bought the Globe in 2013, I swung into action in my office, Argo-like, shredding documents and breaking hard drives to make sure all proprietary information from the book was erased. It probably was unnecessary.
The following spring, after the Boston baseball media had its annual state-of-the-team Q-and-A with Henry and Tom Werner, I playfully asked Henry how Globies should address him now that he was the Globe’s owner.
“Is it ‘John,’ or ‘Mr. Henry,’ or ‘boss’?’’ I asked. “How should we address you now that you own the paper?”
“Well, usually, you call me [expletive],” said Henry.
He wasn’t joking.
It has not gotten better. The owner of the paper and the paper’s veteran sports columnist do not speak. Walls get frosty when we are in the same room.
It is an ongoing situation. The Sox have become fiscally responsible in recent offseasons, and on an almost-weekly basis, I’ve pounded them for cheaping out, not doing right by Fenway fans who pay the highest prices in baseball.
Some of our baseball writers/columnists disagree with many of my takes. Fortunately, there’s no Fox News/CNN one-way agenda in Globe sports. You get multiple viewpoints, even hot takes that the Red Sox owner would never support.
Give this man his props. Henry has allowed me to do my job. He has not done what Rob Manfred did to Ken Rosenthal. He has trusted his faithful readers to make up their own minds.
I am here today to celebrate and applaud John Henry.
Words you never thought you would read.
Here’s the deal. The Major League Baseball Network terminated an outstanding reporter, Ken Rosenthal, evidently because MLB commissioner Rob Manfred thought Kenny was being too mean to the commish and his ideas. By any measure, it goes down as one of the most idiotic management moves in MLB Network history.
Rosenthal is fair and smart, universally respected in big league baseball — by fans, owners, players, team officials, and reporters. Rosenthal is the goods. It is incredibly petty and short-sighted for Manfred to eliminate Rosenthal’s podium just because he can.
You can’t fool fans. Or viewers. Or readers. They always get it.
Henry is no Manfred. There no doubt have been plenty of times when the owner of the Red Sox — who is also owner of the Globe — would have preferred that my thoughts not run in his newspaper. Yet I am still here. Unfortunately for MLB Network viewers, Rosenthal didn’t have a boss who understood the role of the media, was willing to take some hits, and let the viewers make up their own minds.
Henry bought the Globe in the autumn of 2013. It was a conflict of interest then, it is a conflict of interest now. From the public’s perception, it clouds the great work our great reporters do. We are in a no-win position. If we support anything the Sox do, we are in the bag. If we get a scoop, it was spoon-fed from the owner. If, on the other hand, we get beat on a story, we are stooges.
I have been covering the Red Sox for more than 40 years. My opinions have been independent of ownership, whether it was Jean Yawkey, Haywood Sullivan, John Harrington, or John Henry. In my view, the Red Sox are a public trust, and we hold the owners accountable to this unique charge. Sox owners always must answer to the great, hard-core baseball fans of New England.
Henry owned the Sox for more than a decade before he bought the Globe. A lot of stuff happened in those years. The Red Sox shattered the Curse of the Bambino and won a couple of World Series.
Henry and I had a good professional relationship in those sweet years of owner/reporter independence. We took a boat ride together to Bainbridge when the Sox were playing the Mariners in Seattle. I went to his house for dinner to watch the Sox play a road game in Kansas City. We regularly went back and forth on email.
It all started to go south in 2009 when David Ortiz’s name surfaced in a New York Times report on MLB players who had tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs in 2003 baseline testing that was supposed to be anonymous. In the wake of that news, I reassessed the championship of 2004, in which Papi and oft-caught-cheater Manny Ramirez overcame Yankee steroid guys Andy Pettitte, Gary Sheffield, Jason Giambi, and Alex Rodriguez and concluded “our cheaters were better than their cheaters.”
Things have never been the same since. Henry stopped returning my calls and emails.
Things went downhill in a big way after the Sox fired Terry Francona at the end of the 2011 season. When Francona was out of baseball in 2012, I wrote a book with the ex-manager in which Francona called out his former bosses, saying they do not love baseball.
Henry/Shaughnessy relations were particularly strained after the book, and there was considerable interest regarding the book’s sources. During this time, Henry went on the radio, called me a “ridiculous writer,” and challenged my credibility as a truth-teller.
When Henry bought the Globe in 2013, I swung into action in my office, Argo-like, shredding documents and breaking hard drives to make sure all proprietary information from the book was erased. It probably was unnecessary.
The following spring, after the Boston baseball media had its annual state-of-the-team Q-and-A with Henry and Tom Werner, I playfully asked Henry how Globies should address him now that he was the Globe’s owner.
“Is it ‘John,’ or ‘Mr. Henry,’ or ‘boss’?’’ I asked. “How should we address you now that you own the paper?”
“Well, usually, you call me [expletive],” said Henry.
He wasn’t joking.
It has not gotten better. The owner of the paper and the paper’s veteran sports columnist do not speak. Walls get frosty when we are in the same room.
It is an ongoing situation. The Sox have become fiscally responsible in recent offseasons, and on an almost-weekly basis, I’ve pounded them for cheaping out, not doing right by Fenway fans who pay the highest prices in baseball.
Some of our baseball writers/columnists disagree with many of my takes. Fortunately, there’s no Fox News/CNN one-way agenda in Globe sports. You get multiple viewpoints, even hot takes that the Red Sox owner would never support.
Give this man his props. Henry has allowed me to do my job. He has not done what Rob Manfred did to Ken Rosenthal. He has trusted his faithful readers to make up their own minds.
08SeaBass08
Maybe next year.
It ain't all that often, nor has it been for quite some time, but when Shank is on point, he's on point.
EverettMike
FIRE DON SWEENEY INTO THE SUN
Hilarious to me that if Schilling had---for the first time in his life---shut the f*** up last year he would have been elected this year.
Chevalier du Clavier
Écrivain de ferrage
- Jul 20, 2005
- 4,472
- 3,336
N o o d l e s
Registered User
- Jan 29, 2003
- 26,289
- 22,851
- Status
