Honest question....

[Ziggdiezan]

This also ignore the countless teams who have held onto their core for too long and never won. The difference between the Leafs and the teams you mentioned (COL, TBL) is that they showed they could win a round before they won 4.

They also have some of their key/expensive peices spread across the lineup rather than loading up on a bunch of forwards.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

I didn't say you were stupid or foolish. I said voluntarily trading away Matthews or Marner and putting the future of the Leafs on fluking into something would be stupid/foolish, which is a pretty undeniably true statement that I even further expanded on and proved for you. We're one of the best teams in the world, Matthews and Marner are two of the best players in the world, and they are essentially guarantees to provide surplus value on whatever contract they sign for the foreseeable future. You're not getting current value back in a trade that makes up for that, because no other team would dream of trading that caliber of player, which means putting the future of the franchise on lucking out on futures. That is objectively a bad idea.

Don't disagree with your point but you didn't prove anything, you gave your opinion.

 

[ITM]

I wonder if the solution is moving Reilly and his contract...We didn't miss a step without him.

 

[ACC1224]

I wonder if the solution is moving Reilly and his contract...We didn't miss a step without him.

NMC

 

[sxvnert]

I wonder if the solution is moving Reilly and his contract...We didn't miss a step without him.

He can easily be pursuaded into waiving that contract for a place he chooses or enjoy bottom pairing minutes.

 

[ACC1224]

He can easily be pursuaded into waiving that contract for a place he chooses or enjoy bottom pairing minutes.

Why would a Coach give him bottom pairing minutes?

 

[CabanaBoy5]

He can easily be pursuaded into waiving that contract for a place he chooses or enjoy bottom pairing minutes.

I'm sure he'd love to go back to BC. Let's give him this playoff to see if you can find his game. If not, it might be time to persuade him to move somewhere.

 

[tmlms13]

Marner ainec

 

[tmlms13]

He can easily be pursuaded into waiving that contract for a place he chooses or enjoy bottom pairing minutes.

Giving a NMC then asking him to waive it before the contract even starts will look very bad on the Leafs as an organization. Not just dubas everyone. Agents and players will make a note of that and ask why should I ever trust these guys.

I'm sure he'd love to go back to BC. Let's give him this playoff to see if you can find his game. If not, it might be time to persuade him to move somewhere.

I'm sure he'd love to go to an organization currently caught is purgatory. Not good enough to compete not bad enough to tank

 

[LeafGrief]

Big 4 experiment is done and it’s time to do a mini retool with moving one of them out. Marner and Matthews are enough elite talent to build around, and we will gain a ton of cap space by moving Nylander and JT taking a pay cut. JT means we’re still deep up the middle, we have a capable blue line, and the assets from a Nylander trade can go towards a big goalie or defensive piece. We have the cap space to spend a bit more on depth, which means we don’t have to spend all our futures on rentals every year.

It’s the sort of retool that doesn’t even need to set us back. More of a rebalancing the team and setting ourselves up to be consistent contenders during the rest of Matthews and Marner’s primes.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Big 4 experiment is done and it’s time to do a mini retool with moving one of them out. Marner and Matthews are enough elite talent to build around, and we will gain a ton of cap space by moving Nylander and JT taking a pay cut. JT means we’re still deep up the middle, we have a capable blue line, and the assets from a Nylander trade can go towards a big goalie or defensive piece. We have the cap space to spend a bit more on depth, which means we don’t have to spend all our futures on rentals every year.

It’s the sort of retool that doesn’t even need to set us back. More of a rebalancing the team and setting ourselves up to be consistent contenders during the rest of Matthews and Marner’s primes.

It's ok the cap issues will be taken care of possibly as soon as this July 1st when Matthews tells the Leafs he's had enough of cold Canada and he wants to go to LA, Anaheim, or Vegas.

 

[andora]

It's ok the cap issues will be taken care of possibly as soon as this July 1st when Matthews tells the Leafs he's had enough of cold Canada and he wants to go to LA, Anaheim, or Vegas.

I just pray that if it goes THAT way it can be done right away before next season

I couldnt imagine a whole season of this with no extension

 

[Azail]

Carolina let Hamilton walk as a 28 year old top pair because he asked for more than they thought he was worth and they continue to be a top team.

NJ definitely thanks them for that as well. Just like I am sure whatever team gets Matthews and Marner will thank the Leafs if they only have to give up picks and prospects, especially if they are middling picks/prospects.

 

[Azail]

That's not taking a step backwards for one season. That's taking a significant step backwards for the foreseeable future, and potentially until another full-on rebuild unless Byfield/Clarke/unspecified prospect turns into things that none of them have shown to be.

That's very, very different from what Florida did. Florida exchanged a very flawed player entering his post-prime for another top-tier NHLer in his prime. They did not trade the reigning MVP in his prime for prospects and young players that are struggling to establish themselves in the NHL. Florida's not exactly excelling after that trade anyway, so weird thing to point to.

At the end of the day, if the Leafs sign all of Matthews/Marner/Nylander to reasonable contracts that you'll incorrectly call bloated, they'll continue to be contenders for the foreseeable future instead of destroying their team for no reason. None of them are starting any kind of serious decline soon, and this formula has shown to work to produce top-tier teams. You don't abandon it when you're finally going to get a rising cap and internal depth coming through.

Byfield is a 3rd liner playing at a 6 goal, 40-point pace, at an age when Matthews was already a superstar. You don't trade the reigning MVP for somebody with an alright 10 game stretch.
Clarke is having a good short season in the OHL as a 20 year old, but that's the OHL, not the NHL, where again, Matthews was a superstar at that age.
They are good prospects, but they are likely not going to become anything remotely close to Matthews, even if they become NHLers.
And they don't really fit the timeline you're creating around Tavares and O'Rielly.

Only in Toronto could we be looking to sell of Matthews Marner and Nylander for some prospects, and then be led by 33 year old JT and ROR. Crazy stuff.

 

[Menzinger]

I'd agree these discussions are too premature, we may very well see a doubling down after a playoff run

But another thing I notice, is a lot of the time folks always assume the assets coming back are going to be younger..... We could potentially see a Marner trade for example similar to Calgary did with Tkachuk, that returns a couple older impact players.

Careful what you wish for when it comes to a retool.

 

[WillyC]

Great question and an even tougher answer .. for regular season i prefer mitchy .. for playoffs i prefer Willy .. i think da bigger question is which 2/3 of 4 forwards do you keep? Ultimately it could be Mitchy and Matty of top 4 which stay depending on what each wants. JT will move to LW on league min package when his contract runs up (assuming he is still in league) so that will take care of itself unless JT wins a Cup then he will retire

If the Leafs win the Cup… don’t expect Captain John Tavares to retire soon after.

I do agree that he could sign here for league minimum though… he has already made enough money that whatever families his two sons create over the next 100+ years… the Tavares family will be extremely wealthy from here on.

 

[Americanadian]

I'd agree these discussions are too premature, we may very well see a doubling down after a playoff run

But another thing I notice, is a lot of the time folks always assume the assets coming back are going to be younger..... We could potentially see a Marner trade for example similar to Calgary did with Tkachuk, that returns a couple older impact players.

Careful what you wish for when it comes to a retool.

That would legitimately be the worst case scenario. I pray whoever the GM is wouldn't even consider that.

 

[Clyde Brewer]

That wouldn’t be very good for the Leafs.

Leafs are severely lacking toughness in top 6. When guys like Brady Tkachuk are in the lineup, coaches worry less about dressing players like Clifford and Simmonds because guys like Brady can protect themselves.


Mitch is a beauty during regular season, but he has a history of being much less effective in the postseason.
I'll wait for Marner to prove me wrong this playoffs, I would happily eat crow if it meant the Leafs won.

 

[leafsfan5]

Big 4 experiment is done and it’s time to do a mini retool with moving one of them out. Marner and Matthews are enough elite talent to build around, and we will gain a ton of cap space by moving Nylander and JT taking a pay cut. JT means we’re still deep up the middle, we have a capable blue line, and the assets from a Nylander trade can go towards a big goalie or defensive piece. We have the cap space to spend a bit more on depth, which means we don’t have to spend all our futures on rentals every year.

It’s the sort of retool that doesn’t even need to set us back. More of a rebalancing the team and setting ourselves up to be consistent contenders during the rest of Matthews and Marner’s primes.

The experiment is not done, we still have the playoffs in a month

 

[ACC1224]

Leafs are severely lacking toughness in top 6. When guys like Brady Tkachuk are in the lineup, coaches worry less about dressing players like Clifford and Simmonds because guys like Brady can protect themselves.


Mitch is a beauty during regular season, but he has a history of being much less effective in the postseason.
I'll wait for Marner to prove me wrong this playoffs, I would happily eat crow if it meant the Leafs won.

I’m all for a player like Tkachuk just not at the expense of Marner.

 

[Racer88]

Not by foolishly trading away their best players, that's for sure.

Also not by tying up 50% of the cap on 4 forwards either

I'm saying trading your franchise winger, and franchise center, thereby gutting your offense would be stupid.

You talk about teams winning the cup.

Last time I checked Tampa didn't do it by trading Point, Stamkos and Kucherov.

And Colorado didn't do it by trading Mack, Langdeskog and Rantanen.

Trading Marner and Matthews would be stupid



In the end yes but the actual market for him started at about 10 teams.

Those other teams also didn’t spend 50% of their capon 4 forwards and those other teams and players you mentioned actually won something unlike ours.
Far too many people think we would be doomed if we traded one of Marner or Matthews.

 

[Racer88]

Every person here cares about the team over the name on the sweater. The difference is, most people can recognize the massive value our top tier players provide to the team, and don't want to foolishly throw it away for what ifs because we're cranky about past playoff outcomes. Our cap is balanced right now. We're a top tier team right now. And if we keep our best players, and don't completely destroy the current state of competent management, we're looking at another ~decade of being a top tier team with this core.

The chance of getting full value on "a hockey trade" for a Matthews/Marner caliber player and improving as a result of it is slim to none (which is why absolutely zero suggestions that would make us better have been provided), and pretty much only obtainable by fluking into somebody we acquire exploding into something unexpected post-trade. Voluntarily putting the future of the Leafs on that would be stupid.

6 years of first round failure with this core
drops Mike
boom

Years of PTSD has created a pseudo death cult among a faction of this fan base.


So strange to already assign blame for a playoff that has yet to occur.

That’s why I included the “if they do crap out in the first round”

We are an elite team playing basically .500 hockey heading into the playoffs

 

[Racer88]

It's ok the cap issues will be taken care of possibly as soon as this July 1st when Matthews tells the Leafs he's had enough of cold Canada and he wants to go to LA, Anaheim, or Vegas.

Yup and then the Dubas apologists will say the fans chased him away

 

[Racer88]

I keep hearing about all these teams that didn’t trade their 2 core players and went on to succeed. Well I’m pretty sure none of them had 4 forwards so highly paid, consuming 50% of the cap.
many people want to ignore this but it is a serious problem

 

[Clyde Brewer]

I’m all for a player like Tkachuk just not at the expense of Marner.

At the expense of Marner, AND the addition of a precious $3 million more cap space.

In the salary cap era NHL, it's not as simple as trading Marner for Tkachuk- it's trading Marner for Tkachuk and an extra $3 million cap space. In a couple of years, Marner will be even more expensive than he is now, but Brady will be at his current price for 5 more years after this season.

The value of the contract plays such an important role. It can't simply be about who the "better player" is.