HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 1

[overpass]

He was 41 years old in 2006, had a 28-10-4 season with a great .925 season in Ottawa.

He came back the next season in Detroit to be 3rd in all-star voting at age 42.

And the NHL's all-time career save percentage leader is being labelled "not reliable" because of a MOMENT in Ottawa.

A Moment in Ottawa, ... sounds like the title of a Harlequin.

More accurate would be a month in Ottawa.

I was there. I know how good he was when he played. You don't need to convince me. And I also know that the team was expecting him back at any time for two months, and their season ended in the second round with him still refusing to play a game.

I'm not here to say Hasek deserves all the the blame for the loss. GM John Muckler (yes, Muckler again) and coach Bryan Murray should have had a better backup goaltender, should have managed Hasek's workload better, and should have known that Hasek might just decide he couldn't play. But it says something that after the playoffs, the Sens players did not want Hasek back the following year. They were furious that he refused to play while the team lost.

 

[VanIslander]

A Moment in Ottawa: Burned a bit

Mention the greatest player in any sport who hasn't had a PUBLIC 'ugh'?

 

[VanIslander]

Wait Gretzky...

I've never heard a negative word about him (other than hit-related; absorbed & delivered).

Is there a very public example of Gretzky poor play?

*crickets*

 

[BM67]

Pretty sure we could pick out horrendous goals allowed in the playoffs for all of the great goaltenders.

Hall played all the games in 1961, not half the games as you stated.

He said Hall's 67 playoffs mirrored Sawchuk's 61 playoffs, not Hall's 61 playoffs.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

He said Hall's 67 playoffs mirrored Sawchuk's 61 playoffs, not Hall's 61 playoffs.

Sorry, I didn't read it that way. It was a bit ambiguous.

 

[seventieslord]

So just ignoring when they led. Once in 16 years, and then 3 times in 4 years (missing the playoffs all 3 years, so not juggernaut NJ.)

22 teams don't enter into it.

St Louis 5
Detroit 4
New Jersey 4
Dallas 2
Boston 2
Edmonton 1
San Jose 1
Chicago 1

Lowest seasons

STL 1999-00 22.1
STL 2001-02 22.5
STL 1998-99 22.8
DAL 1997-98 22.8
PHI 1998-99 22.9
NJD 2012-13 23.1

The 22 teams who never had the fewest SOGA/GP are certainly part of this data set you're referring to. This is just abuse of statistics, and it's misleading. It is to make it sound like New Jersey wasn't actually elite at shot suppression, when they actually were.

Over the course of those 20 seasons, the Devils had the fewest shots against per game. Reducing it to how many times they - in a 30-team league - were outright last in shots against, is IMO deliberately phrased to obscure that.

If someone made the following point:

"You think the Devils were so good at winning cups? Well, consider this: From 1995 through 2002-03, a span of nine seasons, guess how many cups they won. Just three. 1995, 2000, and 2003. That's all."

...I'd be rightfully called out. Because three in 9 seasons is actually a f***ton, and that means the NHL's other 29 teams won the other six between them.

 

[Sentinel]

I see the underrating of / ignoring Tretiak is at full swing.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I see the underrating of / ignoring Tretiak is at full swing.

Tretiak is available in the first round of voting. So, I'm not sure that he's being underrated or ignored.
The term "Tretiak" appeared 33 times on page 6 alone and that discussion continued on to page 7. So I wouldn't say that he's being ignored.
Also, much of the talk around him is positive. So I don't think he's being underrated either.

Unless you're going to claim that he's the #1 goalie of all time. In which case, I doubt you're going to be able to "drive-by" your way to convincing the panel of that.

 

[overpass]

Plus, and this may be a stupid way to look at it, but... from watching games, I really think Tretiak is a lot better than the next non-NHL European goalie, both before and after his time. Like, a lot better. So then, the question for me is, how did he become so much better than the others without having elite guys to look at and train under? If he had been dealt the hand Hall had been, developing in Detroit 'under' Terry Sawchuk, then only given the starter reins as a seasoned 24 year old rather than as a green 19 year old... would Tretiak have been even better?

I've been reading Tretiak's book, "Tretiak: A Legend". He had positive things to say about Konovalenko and other older Soviet goalies who were supportive, but his biggest influences were Anatoli Tarasov and Jacques Plante.

Tarasov identified Tretiak as his goaltender of the future when Tretiak was only 15, giving him chances to practice with the senior team, and started working intensively with him after the 1969 European U19 championship, when Tretiak was only 16. Tarasov thought Bohumil Modry was the most physically gifted goaltender he had seen, but Modry didn't apply himself in training. In Tretiak, Tarasov saw another Modry when it came to his physical gifts, and also someone who would apply hard work and intelligence to improve.

Tarasov established a task for himself; to make Tretiak the best goaltender. "The best in the country?" I asked. Anatoly frowned at me. "In the world! Remember this once and for all: In the world!" he said.

Tretiak said that Tarasov put an incredible workload on him. He had three practices a day, and Tarasov frequently invented new exercises just for him. He played in a game almost every day, sometimes for the juniors, the intermediates, or the seniors. And he had to carry a tennis ball with him everywhere off the ice, throwing it and catching it.

Tarasov and Tretiak took Plante as a model for goaltending. Here's Tarasov on Plante, from Tretiak's book.

I studied Plante and noticed that he was using a technique of recoil. He would skate far away from his net to meet the puck carrier, thus decreasing the angle of the shot, and then would recoil back to his net as the player approached. Aha, I though, we can use this technique. I was also stunned by his faultless ability to study his rivals. His intelligence was obvious. He knew how to play each forward that he faced from our team.

Per Tretiak's book, Jacques Plante was interviewed at the 1976 Canada Cup and said Tretiak was the best goaltender in the world. I'd like to get another source for that.

One amusing bit from the book was that Tretiak didn't believe Terry Sawchuk could be a real person.

There are many rumors about the goaltending profession, although truth is greatly mixed with legend. Once, for example, I read that one of the professional teams had a goalie who, in 110 games had not missed a single goal, and that on his face, he had more than four hundred scars. I think that this is a figment of someone's imagination.

Anyway, it's true that Tretiak didn't have great Russian or European goalies to learn from, but the coaching and attention he got from Tarasov as a teenager is probably unique in history. I doubt Sawchuk, Hall, or Plante received anywhere near as much direct instruction.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

This is from the Montreal Gazette, September 7, 1976:

It's not "best in the world" (and if Plante did say that, I'm surprised it's not mentioned here), and it's possible that the comments came after the tournament.

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

Tarasov and Tretiak took Plante as a model for goaltending. Here's Tarasov on Plante, from Tretiak's book.

I studied Plante and noticed that he was using a technique of recoil. He would skate far away from his net to meet the puck carrier, thus decreasing the angle of the shot, and then would recoil back to his net as the player approached. Aha, I though, we can use this technique. I was also stunned by his faultless ability to study his rivals. His intelligence was obvious. He knew how to play each forward that he faced from our team.

Per Tretiak's book, Jacques Plante was interviewed at the 1976 Canada Cup and said Tretiak was the best goaltender in the world. I'd like to get another source for that.

Didn't find anything to corroborate that quote in Todd Denault's book on Jacques Plante, but Plante was definitely a model for the Russians, which goes back to his performance against them when he stepped in for the Montreal Junior Canadiens against the Soviets in 1965.

Here's Anatoly Tarasov after that game:

"You want me to talk about Jacques Plante? We only knew him by name. Tonight, not only did we meet him, we felt his presence. I'd like to ask you to thank him - to say thank you to Jacques Plante on behalf of all of us. I am speechless when I see him play. I hope I can say that the Russian team deserved to meet such a goaltender. It was a great honour for us to play against him."

Ed Johnston, who was on Team Canada in 1972 although he didn't play, observed that Tretiak was influenced by Plante:

"You can see Jacques' scientific approach in the way Tretiak plays. He doesn't go down on the angles. And he turns with the play when an attacker cuts in front of the net, just the way Jacques does."

And there's this additional quote from Plante on Tretiak, about the conversations the two of them had:

"I didn't really teach him that much, just a little about playing the angles and positioning himself in the net. Tretiak has to learn to use his stick a little more and how to control the puck with it in the goal area."

 

[frisco]

Ken Dryden almost has a Sandy Koufax-esque feel to his career. Seven full seasons and he went: 1-1-1-1-1-2-4 in AS voting. His worst season was 30-9-16. He has the obvious detractions from his body of work (longevity and stacked Habs team) but, on the other hand, what more do you want from him? He basically won the Cup and was first AS every year.

Before he got to Montreal, they missed the playoffs for like the first time ever and there was a big drop off in the year he sat out and after he retired.

My Best-Carey

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Ken Dryden almost has a Sandy Koufax-esque feel to his career. Seven full seasons and he went: 1-1-1-1-1-2-4 in AS voting. His worst season was 30-9-16. He has the obvious detractions from his body of work (longevity and stacked Habs team) but, on the other hand, what more do you want from him? He basically won the Cup and was first AS every year.

Before he got to Montreal, they missed the playoffs for like the first time ever and there was a big drop off in the year he sat out and after he retired.

My Best-Carey

258-57-74 in the regular season

80-32 in the playoffs

If it's all about winning

 

[jigglysquishy]

A few quotes from the Jacques Plante book.

"“It was Jacques Plante, the famous ‘pucktamer,’ the best Canadian goaltender of all time,” Tretiak recalled in his memoirs."


"Ed Johnston of the Boston Bruins, and now the third goaltender for Team Canada, claimed that Plante’s influence on Tretiak’s style was easily detectable. “You can see Jacques’ scientific approach in the way Tretiak plays. He doesn’t go down on the angles. And he turns with the play when an attacker cuts in front of the net, just the way Jacques does.”

Asked by the media to comment on his unofficial student’s play, Plante maintained, “I didn’t really teach him that much, just a little about playing the angles and positioning himself in the net. Tretiak has to learn to use his stick a little more and how to control the puck with it in the goal area.”"


"In studying and analyzing the pros, Plante found one goalie who stood out the most, a goalie whom he sought to emulate more than the others: Terry Sawchuk of the Detroit Red Wings.

Almost a year younger than Plante, Sawchuk had been called up to the NHL in the 1949–50 season, during Plante’s first year with the Royals, but really began to make his mark the following season. Rare has been the player in the history of the game who has made such an immediate impact. Sawchuk had captured the Calder Trophy as the league’s rookie of the year and was named to the first all-star team in 1951. He repeated the first all-star selection each of the following two seasons, as well as copping a pair of Vezina trophies as the leader in goals-against average. But for most people, it was his performance in the 1952 playoffs that forever cemented his reputation as the best goaltender of his day. In eight games, Sawchuk went undefeated, helping the Red Wings win the Stanley Cup with two consecutive sweeps over the Toronto Maple Leafs in the semifinals and then the Canadiens in the finals. Sporting four shutouts, he surrendered only five goals in the other four games, setting a still standing post-season record goals-against average of .63.

Plante watched Sawchuk intently. If Plante aspired to be the best goaltender, then it only made sense for him to study the best. Two aspects of Sawchuk’s game struck Plante. The first was how he would assiduously play the angles when confronting the shooters, a characteristic born of one of Sawchuk’s greatest strengths: his fearlessness between the pipes. The second was Sawchuk’s stance. Standing just an inch short of six feet, Sawchuk managed to crouch incredibly low into his net. By squatting down as much as possible, he was able to keep his sightlines open when looking for oncoming pucks.

“I couldn’t figure out how he was able to block so many screened shots,” Plante told the Hockey News a couple of years later. “Then … I suddenly found out. Sawchuk puts the back edge of his stick flat on the ice, handle and all, blade up. He crouches, watching for the shot to come out of a scramble or from the point. You’d be surprised how many shots are stopped by that stick. You don’t have only the blade, which might be turned in and a goal scored on a hard shot, but the full length of the stick. Besides, the goalie is in position to grab a higher shot faster.”"


"That summer, Jacques wrote a letter to the Canadiens management revealing to them for the first time his greatest secret and asking them to pay for an operation to fix his wrist. A bold Plante promised them that, if they would cover the cost of the operation, he was sure he would be “as good as any goalie in the NHL, not even barring Terry Sawchuk.”"


"Plante finished the regular season seven wins behind the league-leading Glenn Hall, and once again had the fewest losses in the league. His nine shutouts were twice as much as the next leading goaltender’s and five more than Hall’s. Plante’s goals-against average of 2.02 was the league’s best.

And yet Glenn Hall, who finished behind Plante in every statistical category except wins, wrestled the first-team all-star honours from him, and Plante had to settle for being the goalie on the second all-star team."


The following is a real interest quip about net size.

"“The goals aren’t the same size in all the rinks.”

“You’re nuts. They’re all the same everywhere – the official goal nets,” insisted Reardon.

Plante nonchalantly shrugged. “The crossbars at the top are two inches lower in New York, Boston, and Chicago. I know because they hit my back lower there than in the Forum, Toronto, or in Detroit – two inches lower.”

The reporters’ jaws collectively hit the floor. Plante was claiming that there had been a violation in the rules that had resulted in a competitive edge, a violation that had gone undetected by the league.

“Even if you’re right,” protested an incredulous Reardon, “isn’t it the same for all of you goalies playing the circuit?”

“No, it isn’t the same for everybody!” responded Plante. “Glenn Hall plays 35 games at home in Chicago with less goal to protect than I have to protect for 35 games at the Forum in Montreal. We’re both in a race for the Vezina Trophy and that gives him an edge. Do you call it fair?”"

 

[overpass]

I read the Montreal Gazette of February 28, 1986, the day after Jacques Plante passed away. Many had good things to say about Plante, including several who said he was the greatest goalie of all time (teammates Dickie Moore and Gilles Tremblay, referee Red Storey, Canadiens president Ronald Corey).

Multiple Canadiens mentioned Plante's ability to keep them in games early, especially on the road.

Dickie Moore - "If that was the best team of all time, Jacques was largely instrumental. I can remember going down to Boston (in the playoffs) and them blitzing him with shots in the first 10 minutes, and Jacques was like a wall against them. Then we'd finally get the puck, go down and score and the whole complexion of the game changed."

Ken Reardon - "One thing I remember about Jacques was that even when we had those great teams we used to have a problem sometimes on the road getting off to a good start. But Jacques could hold everything out until things settled down. He was revolutionary."

Ralph Backstrom also said something similar, although he didn't mention road games in particular. "When the chips were down, he always kept us in the game until our offence got going."

So I compiled some statistics to see how Plante actually did in these situations. Looking at the playoffs, dynasty years only (1956-60).

Plante overall: 40-9, 1.85 GAA, 0.930 SV%, 27.0 SA/60
Plante at home: 25-2, 1.87 GAA, 0.929 SV%, 26.5 SA/60
Plante on the road: 15-7, 1.82 GAA, 0.931 SV%, 27.6 SA/60

Plante was remarkably good on the road during the dynasty years. Montreal was almost impossible to beat at home, scoring 4.30 goals per game. On the road they "only" scored 3.00 goals per game, so they were more vulnerable. And Plante had by far the best playoff road GAA and SV% in the league.

Plante's GAA by period in the playoffs was as follows:
Period 1: 1.78
Period 2: 1.84
Period 3: 1.96

Pretty close, but he was at his best early in the game.

I also tracked Plante's performance in allowing the first goal, and I tracked his GAA for the time before Montreal scored their first goal of the game.

In 49 playoff games, Plante allowed the first goal 15 times (34-15). Montreal played 817 minutes in the playoffs with 0 goals, so they scored their first goal an average of 17 minutes into the game, which is actually quite late considering their overall scoring level. In those 817 minutes, Plante allowed only 19 goals, for a GAA of 1.39!

Plante overall: 34-15 first goal, 817 TOI, 19 GA, 1.39 GAA before Montreal scored
Plante home: 21-6 first goal, 372 TOI, 6 GA, 0.97 GAA before Montreal scored
Plante road: 13-9 first goal, 445 TOI, 13 GA, 1.75 GAA before Montreal scored

So Plante was extremely good at preventing goals against while waiting for his teammates to score the first goal. His teammates remembered it decades later, and the stats back it up.

How do others in this round compare? I've compiled the same stats for Terry Sawchuk, Glenn Hall, and Ken Dryden. I think it would take too long for Roy, Hasek, and Brodeur.

Terry Sawchuk, 1951-1955 playoffs

Sawchuk overall: 28-15, 1.87 GAA, 0.929 SV%, 26.4 SA/60
Sawchuk at home: 16-7, 1.58 GAA, 0.936 SV%, 24.8 SA/60
Sawchuk on the road: 12-8, 2.23 GAA, 0.922 SV%, 28.5 SA/60

Sawchuk GAA by period
Period 1: 1.81
Period 2: 1.95
Period 3: 1.95

Sawchuk overall: 23-20 first goal, 878 TOI, 32 GA, 2.19 GAA before Detroit scored
Sawchuk home: 13-10 first goal, 445 TOI, 14 GA, 1.89 GAA before Detroit scored
Sawchuk road: 10-10 first goal, 433 TOI, 18 GA, 2.50 GAA before Detroit scored

While Sawchuk's overall statistics in his 5 year playoff peak were similar to Plante's, as was his first period GAA, he was not particularly strong when it came to not allowing the first goal, or at keeping his team in the game before they scored.

We can break down Sawchuk's performance in these situations more and see he was actually outstanding in his first two playoffs at preventing the first goal and keeping his team in the game while they had 0 goals. But then from 1953-1955 he was much worse.

Sawchuk 1951-1952: 11-3 first goal, 303 TOI, 3 GA, 0.59 GAA before Detroit scored
Sawchuk 1953-1955: 12-17 first goal, 574 TOI, 29 GA, 3.03 GAA before Detroit scored

Glenn Hall, 1961-1966 playoffs

I chose to exclude the Montreal dynasty years because Hall's team had no realistic chance to win in those years.

Hall overall: 28-28, 2.74 GAA, 0.916 SV%, 32.8 SA/60
Hall at home: 21-7, 2.09 GAA, 0.935 SV%, 32.0 SA/60
Hall on the road: 7-21, 3.42 GAA, 0.898 SV%, 33.6 SA/60

Hall and the Hawks had a huge difference in performance at home and on the road when it came to preventing goals. At home he matched peak Sawchuk and Plante, but he got lit up on the road.

I'll break down the following numbers by coach, because they are very different.

Hall GAA by period while playing for Rudy Pilous (1961-63)
Period 1: 2.10
Period 2: 2.40
Period 3: 3.80

Hall/Pilous overall: 18-12 first goal, 587 TOI, 17 GA, 1.74 GAA before Chicago scored
Hall/Pilous home: 11-4 first goal, 265 TOI, 5 GA, 1.13 GAA before Chicago scored
Hall/Pilous road: 7-8 first goal, 321 TOI, 12 GA, 2.24 GAA before Chicago scored

While playing for Rudy Pilous from 1961-1963, Glenn Hall was at his best early in the game, particularly when his team hadn't scored yet. He did struggle in third periods, allowing 2-4 goals in the third period of 8 of 15 road games.

Hall GAA by period while playing for Billy Reay (1964-66)
Period 1: 3.35
Period 2: 2.65
Period 3: 2.45

Hall/Reay overall: 7-19 first goal, 667 TOI, 39 GA, 3.51 GAA before Chicago scored
Hall/Reay home: 6-7 first goal, 275 TOI, 18 GA, 3.93 GAA before Chicago scored
Hall/Reay road: 1-12 first goal, 392 TOI, 21 GA, 3.21 GAA before Chicago scored

When Hall played for Billy Reay, his results were very different than when he played for Pilous. Hall and the Hawks usually allowed the first goal, and had a very poor goals against record in the minutes before they scored.

Ken Dryden, 1971-1979 playoffs

I'll break down Dryden into his 1971-1975 playoffs and his 1976-1979 playoffs, to allow for a fair comparison with Plante.

1971-1975
Dryden overall: 32-22, 2.86 GAA, 0.912 SV%, 32.5 SA/60
Dryden at home: 18-9, 2.77 GAA, 0.903 SV%, 28.4 SA/60
Dryden on the road: 14-13, 2.95 GAA, 0.919 SV%, 36.6 SA/60

Dryden GAA by period
Period 1: 3.72
Period 2: 2.56
Period 3: 2.11

Dryden overall: 22-32 first goal, 845 TOI, 49 GA, 3.48 GAA before Montreal scored
Dryden home: 12-15 first goal, 380 TOI, 27 GA, 4.27 GAA before Montreal scored
Dryden road: 10-17 first goal, 466 TOI, 22 GA, 2.83 GAA before Detroit scored

Dryden was actually quite bad early in playoff games before the dynasty. He was much better in the second and third periods.

1976-1979
Dryden overall: 48-10, 1.99 GAA, 0.919 SV%, 24.5 SA/60
Dryden at home: 28-3, 1.93 GAA, 0.916 SV%, 23.1 SA/60
Dryden on the road: 20-7, 2.05 GAA, 0.921 SV%, 26.1 SA/60

Dryden GAA by period
Period 1: 2.22
Period 2: 1.91
Period 3: 1.79

Dryden overall: 34-24 first goal, 915 TOI, 36 GA, 2.36 GAA before Montreal scored
Dryden home: 19-12 first goal, 499 TOI, 17 GA, 2.04 GAA before Montreal scored
Dryden road: 15-12 first goal, 416 TOI, 19 GA, 2.74 GAA before Detroit scored

Even in the dynasty years, Dryden was weaker in the first period and while his team had 0 goals, although not to the degree he was earlier in this career. Comparing dynasty goalie to dynasty goalie, Jacques Plante was clearly better early in games and at not allowing the first goal.

If you take one stat away from Ken Dryden, take this one. In 112 playoff games, he allowed the first goal in 56 of them, exactly 50%. While playing for a team that outscored opponents by over 50% in the playoffs.

 

[Vilica]

As much as I do like the Dryden info, I feel like you're reading way too much into tiny samples.

To give an example, if you look at Plante's road GAA total - 1.82, then look at his road GAA prior to scoring - 445 TOI, 13 GA, 1.75 GAA, and just add or subtract 1 goal, the variance in GAA is from 1.62 to 1.89. If Plante had given up 1 more goal in 22 games and 445 minutes, your conclusion about him would be completely flipped.

Sawchuk's road sample requires 2 extra goals to flip, whereas Hall and Dryden are more than that. At the end of the day, you're talking about road shot samples of about 200-250, and randomness is as likely as talent over that small sample. Probably one of the reasons Hall and Dryden's numbers are higher than Plante and Sawchuk's is because their samples are 1254 and 1760 minutes compared to 817 and 878. I don't want to push more work on you, but maybe look at Plante/Sawchuk's next 400 minutes and compare it to their 800 minute initial one. Plante may not even hit 400 in his post-dynasty action the next 3 years, while Sawchuk has a fair few more appearances for Detroit. Looking at their total playoff GAAs for those years, I'm guessing their numbers in your calculations will be much higher.

 

[overpass]

As much as I do like the Dryden info, I feel like you're reading way too much into tiny samples.

Yes, the numbers involved are relatively small. But they do include every single playoff minute in the relevant seasons.

To give an example, if you look at Plante's road GAA total - 1.82, then look at his road GAA prior to scoring - 445 TOI, 13 GA, 1.75 GAA, and just add or subtract 1 goal, the variance in GAA is from 1.62 to 1.89. If Plante had given up 1 more goal in 22 games and 445 minutes, your conclusion about him would be completely flipped.

First, it's not just my conclusion, it's what two of Plante's former teammates and a Canadiens' executive remembered about Plante when asked for a quote on the occasion of his death. Those quotes add weight to the conclusion beyond the statistical calculations.

Second, my assessment of Plante's performance would not "flip" with an additional goal against on the road. A 1.89 GAA on the road before his team scored is still very good, well ahead of Sawchuk (2.50 GAA), Hall (2.74 GAA), and Dryden (2.79 GAA) in the same situations. The assessment would change to the degree that the underlying facts changed.

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

I read the Montreal Gazette of February 28, 1986, the day after Jacques Plante passed away. Many had good things to say about Plante, including several who said he was the greatest goalie of all time (teammates Dickie Moore and Gilles Tremblay, referee Red Storey, Canadiens president Ronald Corey).

Multiple Canadiens mentioned Plante's ability to keep them in games early, especially on the road.

Dickie Moore - "If that was the best team of all time, Jacques was largely instrumental. I can remember going down to Boston (in the playoffs) and them blitzing him with shots in the first 10 minutes, and Jacques was like a wall against them. Then we'd finally get the puck, go down and score and the whole complexion of the game changed."

Ken Reardon - "One thing I remember about Jacques was that even when we had those great teams we used to have a problem sometimes on the road getting off to a good start. But Jacques could hold everything out until things settled down. He was revolutionary."

Ralph Backstrom also said something similar, although he didn't mention road games in particular. "When the chips were down, he always kept us in the game until our offence got going."

So I compiled some statistics to see how Plante actually did in these situations. Looking at the playoffs, dynasty years only (1956-60).

Plante overall: 40-9, 1.85 GAA, 0.930 SV%, 27.0 SA/60
Plante at home: 25-2, 1.87 GAA, 0.929 SV%, 26.5 SA/60
Plante on the road: 15-7, 1.82 GAA, 0.931 SV%, 27.6 SA/60

Plante was remarkably good on the road during the dynasty years. Montreal was almost impossible to beat at home, scoring 4.30 goals per game. On the road they "only" scored 3.00 goals per game, so they were more vulnerable. And Plante had by far the best playoff road GAA and SV% in the league.

Plante's GAA by period in the playoffs was as follows:
Period 1: 1.78
Period 2: 1.84
Period 3: 1.96

Pretty close, but he was at his best early in the game.

I also tracked Plante's performance in allowing the first goal, and I tracked his GAA for the time before Montreal scored their first goal of the game.

In 49 playoff games, Plante allowed the first goal 15 times (34-15). Montreal played 817 minutes in the playoffs with 0 goals, so they scored their first goal an average of 17 minutes into the game, which is actually quite late considering their overall scoring level. In those 817 minutes, Plante allowed only 19 goals, for a GAA of 1.39!

Plante overall: 34-15 first goal, 817 TOI, 19 GA, 1.39 GAA before Montreal scored
Plante home: 21-6 first goal, 372 TOI, 6 GA, 0.97 GAA before Montreal scored
Plante road: 13-9 first goal, 445 TOI, 13 GA, 1.75 GAA before Montreal scored

So Plante was extremely good at preventing goals against while waiting for his teammates to score the first goal. His teammates remembered it decades later, and the stats back it up.

How do others in this round compare? I've compiled the same stats for Terry Sawchuk, Glenn Hall, and Ken Dryden. I think it would take too long for Roy, Hasek, and Brodeur.

Terry Sawchuk, 1951-1955 playoffs

Sawchuk overall: 28-15, 1.87 GAA, 0.929 SV%, 26.4 SA/60
Sawchuk at home: 16-7, 1.58 GAA, 0.936 SV%, 24.8 SA/60
Sawchuk on the road: 12-8, 2.23 GAA, 0.922 SV%, 28.5 SA/60

Sawchuk GAA by period
Period 1: 1.81
Period 2: 1.95
Period 3: 1.95

Sawchuk overall: 23-20 first goal, 878 TOI, 32 GA, 2.19 GAA before Detroit scored
Sawchuk home: 13-10 first goal, 445 TOI, 14 GA, 1.89 GAA before Detroit scored
Sawchuk road: 10-10 first goal, 433 TOI, 18 GA, 2.50 GAA before Detroit scored

While Sawchuk's overall statistics in his 5 year playoff peak were similar to Plante's, as was his first period GAA, he was not particularly strong when it came to not allowing the first goal, or at keeping his team in the game before they scored.

We can break down Sawchuk's performance in these situations more and see he was actually outstanding in his first two playoffs at preventing the first goal and keeping his team in the game while they had 0 goals. But then from 1953-1955 he was much worse.

Sawchuk 1951-1952: 11-3 first goal, 303 TOI, 3 GA, 0.59 GAA before Detroit scored
Sawchuk 1953-1955: 12-17 first goal, 574 TOI, 29 GA, 3.03 GAA before Detroit scored

Glenn Hall, 1961-1966 playoffs

I chose to exclude the Montreal dynasty years because Hall's team had no realistic chance to win in those years.

Hall overall: 28-28, 2.74 GAA, 0.916 SV%, 32.8 SA/60
Hall at home: 21-7, 2.09 GAA, 0.935 SV%, 32.0 SA/60
Hall on the road: 7-21, 3.42 GAA, 0.898 SV%, 33.6 SA/60

Hall and the Hawks had a huge difference in performance at home and on the road when it came to preventing goals. At home he matched peak Sawchuk and Plante, but he got lit up on the road.

I'll break down the following numbers by coach, because they are very different.

Hall GAA by period while playing for Rudy Pilous (1961-63)
Period 1: 2.10
Period 2: 2.40
Period 3: 3.80

Hall/Pilous overall: 18-12 first goal, 587 TOI, 17 GA, 1.74 GAA before Chicago scored
Hall/Pilous home: 11-4 first goal, 265 TOI, 5 GA, 1.13 GAA before Chicago scored
Hall/Pilous road: 7-8 first goal, 321 TOI, 12 GA, 2.24 GAA before Chicago scored

While playing for Rudy Pilous from 1961-1963, Glenn Hall was at his best early in the game, particularly when his team hadn't scored yet. He did struggle in third periods, allowing 2-4 goals in the third period of 8 of 15 road games.

Hall GAA by period while playing for Billy Reay (1964-66)
Period 1: 3.35
Period 2: 2.65
Period 3: 2.45

Hall/Reay overall: 7-19 first goal, 667 TOI, 39 GA, 3.51 GAA before Chicago scored
Hall/Reay home: 6-7 first goal, 275 TOI, 18 GA, 3.93 GAA before Chicago scored
Hall/Reay road: 1-12 first goal, 392 TOI, 21 GA, 3.21 GAA before Chicago scored

When Hall played for Billy Reay, his results were very different than when he played for Pilous. Hall and the Hawks usually allowed the first goal, and had a very poor goals against record in the minutes before they scored.

Ken Dryden, 1971-1979 playoffs

I'll break down Dryden into his 1971-1975 playoffs and his 1976-1979 playoffs, to allow for a fair comparison with Plante.

1971-1975
Dryden overall: 32-22, 2.86 GAA, 0.912 SV%, 32.5 SA/60
Dryden at home: 18-9, 2.77 GAA, 0.903 SV%, 28.4 SA/60
Dryden on the road: 14-13, 2.95 GAA, 0.919 SV%, 36.6 SA/60

Dryden GAA by period
Period 1: 3.72
Period 2: 2.56
Period 3: 2.11

Dryden overall: 22-32 first goal, 845 TOI, 49 GA, 3.48 GAA before Montreal scored
Dryden home: 12-15 first goal, 380 TOI, 27 GA, 4.27 GAA before Montreal scored
Dryden road: 10-17 first goal, 466 TOI, 22 GA, 2.83 GAA before Detroit scored

Dryden was actually quite bad early in playoff games before the dynasty. He was much better in the second and third periods.

1976-1979
Dryden overall: 48-10, 1.99 GAA, 0.919 SV%, 24.5 SA/60
Dryden at home: 28-3, 1.93 GAA, 0.916 SV%, 23.1 SA/60
Dryden on the road: 20-7, 2.05 GAA, 0.921 SV%, 26.1 SA/60

Dryden GAA by period
Period 1: 2.22
Period 2: 1.91
Period 3: 1.79

Dryden overall: 34-24 first goal, 915 TOI, 36 GA, 2.36 GAA before Montreal scored
Dryden home: 19-12 first goal, 499 TOI, 17 GA, 2.04 GAA before Montreal scored
Dryden road: 15-12 first goal, 416 TOI, 19 GA, 2.74 GAA before Detroit scored

Even in the dynasty years, Dryden was weaker in the first period and while his team had 0 goals, although not to the degree he was earlier in this career. Comparing dynasty goalie to dynasty goalie, Jacques Plante was clearly better early in games and at not allowing the first goal.

If you take one stat away from Ken Dryden, take this one. In 112 playoff games, he allowed the first goal in 56 of them, exactly 50%. While playing for a team that outscored opponents by over 50% in the playoffs.

I was going to post more about this next round, but it's reinforcing your point here so I'll add it now. I dropped Dryden out of my top 8 this time, and one of the big reasons is that I feel strongly that his team bailed him out a lot more than the other way around.

I made a similar observation to you when looking through the game logs, noting how frequently it seemed that the other team would score not just the first goal, but often the first two goals, but then the Habs would come roaring back and win 6-3 or something like that anyway.

I counted up the games where Dryden's opponent had what I'll call a "winning position", which I'll define as leading by 2 goals at any point in the game, or leading by 1 goal at any point in the third period.

Winning positions against Dryden's Habs:
Boston 1971: 4 of 7 games
Minnesota 1971: 2 of 6 games
Chicago 1971: 5 of 7 games
NY Rangers 1972: 4 of 6 games
Buffalo 1973: 3 of 6 games
Philadelphia 1973: 3 of 5 games
Chicago 1973: 4 of 6 games
Vancouver 1975: 2 of 5 games
Buffalo 1975: 4 of 6 games
Chicago 1976: 0 of 4 games
NY Islanders 1976: 3 of 5 games
Philadelphia 1976: 1 of 4 games
St. Louis 1977: 0 of 4 games
NY Islanders 1977: 2 of 6 games
Boston 1977: 0 of 4 games
Detroit 1978: 2 of 5 games
Toronto 1978: 0 of 4 games
Boston 1978: 2 of 6 games
Toronto 1979: 1 of 4 games
Boston 1979: 6 of 7 games
NY Rangers 1979: 3 of 5 games

It's honestly wild how much the 1971, 1973, 1975 and 1979 Canadiens repeatedly bailed out Ken Dryden from what would ordinarily be considered losing positions. They were trailing by 2 and/or losing in the third period in 37 out of 64 games in those 4 postseasons, 58% of the time, and yet still miraculously turned that into 3 Stanley Cups.

At least there is the 1976-78 stretch which is what a dynasty should look like, consistently closing teams out without much trouble. Over those 3 years the Habs were in a losing position in only 10 of 42 games (24%), and the Islanders were really the only team that gave them too much trouble. For reference, Plante's Habs during their 5 Cups in a row faced a losing position in (edit) 13 of 48 games (27% of the time).

Then there's also this:

Winning positions against the Habs without Dryden:
NY Rangers 1974: 3 of 6 games
Hartford 1980: 0 of 3 games
Minnesota 1980: 4 of 7 games

Those don't really look that different than most of the Dryden years but for whatever reason the team didn't score their way out of trouble. In short, I'm a lot less convinced by the "they won with him and not without him" argument than I was previously.

 

[Professor What]

Where I'm at right now:

1 - Hasek
2 - Roy

I'm not going to argue to hard with anyone who flips those two. I just like Hasek's peak better, though I could see someone questioning his reliability and liking Roy's playoffs enough to make the difference. It would be really hard for someone to talk me out of these two being the top two though. I just feel like there's a bit of a gap between them and the others.

3 - Plante
4 - Sawchuk
5 - Brodeur
6 - Hall

I'm not sure than Plante peaked as high as Hasek or Roy or he'd be in that top two. That said, I don't find anything not to like about him relatively speaking. Sawchuk has the peak that I like and I feel is a more consistent playoff performer than Hall. I have to be honest. I'm not sure a bit of sympathy isn't sneaking its way in there too. As someone who has struggles with mental health, I admire his ability to overcome it as well as he did. The combination of workhorse and playoff performance has made me move Brodeur up, but I have to admit that I'm almost feeling guilty about my placement of Hall. I think he's just ending up as the odd man out in this group for me. He's still ahead of the other two, but I think Tretiak is gaining on him too. As far as my vote is concerned, the sooner it's in the better for Hall.

7 - Tretiak
8 - Dryden

The fact that Tretiak is gaining on Hall isn't as much of Hall falling -- his fall happened pretty early on -- as much as Tretiak moving up a bit. I like the info we're getting on him, and while it hasn't made the difference of a position in the rankings yet, but he might be closer to joining the second tier than being in a tier with Dryden. I'm interested to see the conversations surrounding Dryden in the next round of discussions, because I can actually see the possibility for a couple of guys to gain on him, and I previously felt like there was a top 8 for a reason.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I've always looked at the 3 O6 goalies as a bit is a trio that can be ranked in any order. Lots of stuff posted from contemporaries, whether goalies or skaters or coaches or newspapers, in the last few pages. Hall is looking like a clear third of these three. And that Plante and Sawchuk are closer to each other than either is to Hall.

In a similar vain, I think Brodeur has emerged as the clear third of his era.

Brodeur vs Sawchuk is really interesting for me. Extreme longevity vs high high peak. Unlike Hall, Brodeur enjoyed a period of extreme praise from an all time sense around 2005. I'm very much undecided right now.

 

[Professor What]

I've always looked at the 3 O6 goalies as a bit is a trio that can be ranked in any order. Lots of stuff posted from contemporaries, whether goalies or skaters or coaches or newspapers, in the last few pages. Hall is looking like a clear third of these three. And that Plante and Sawchuk are closer to each other than either is to Hall.

In a similar vain, I think Brodeur has emerged as the clear third of his era.

Brodeur vs Sawchuk is really interesting for me. Extreme longevity vs high high peak. Unlike Hall, Brodeur enjoyed a period of extreme praise from an all time sense around 2005. I'm very much undecided right now.

Yeah, I always saw the O6 trio the same way, but I feel like Hall is getting shuffled back here. I always felt like Brodeur was the clear third of his era, but when Hasek and Roy are contemporaries, that's not so bad. It's like finishing third to Gretzky and Lemieux. I think we're on the same page if you're comparing Brodeur to Sawchuk. I've got Sawchuk ahead, but I'm becoming more convinced that it's Sawchuk and not Hall that Brodeur should be compared to.

 

[MXD]

This process just makes me want to write-in Charlie Gardiner.

 

[nabby12]

My current list is:

1. Sawchuk
2. Hasek
3. Roy
4. Plante
5. Hall
6. Brodeur
7. Tretiak
8. Dryden

Still wish Charlie Gardiner could be in here!!

This process just makes me want to write-in Charlie Gardiner.

My thoughts exactly!!

 

[jigglysquishy]

Gardiner will be up next round and I expect will do quite well.

If the metric is purely contemporary praise, it's really him, Sawchuk, and Hasek as kings.