HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 1

overpass

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Jun 7, 2007
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He was 41 years old in 2006, had a 28-10-4 season with a great .925 season in Ottawa.

He came back the next season in Detroit to be 3rd in all-star voting at age 42.

And the NHL's all-time career save percentage leader is being labelled "not reliable" because of a MOMENT in Ottawa.

A Moment in Ottawa, ... sounds like the title of a Harlequin.

More accurate would be a month in Ottawa.

I was there. I know how good he was when he played. You don't need to convince me. And I also know that the team was expecting him back at any time for two months, and their season ended in the second round with him still refusing to play a game.

I'm not here to say Hasek deserves all the the blame for the loss. GM John Muckler (yes, Muckler again) and coach Bryan Murray should have had a better backup goaltender, should have managed Hasek's workload better, and should have known that Hasek might just decide he couldn't play. But it says something that after the playoffs, the Sens players did not want Hasek back the following year. They were furious that he refused to play while the team lost.
 
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VanIslander

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Wait Gretzky...

I've never heard a negative word about him (other than hit-related; absorbed & delivered).

Is there a very public example of Gretzky poor play?

*crickets*
 

seventieslord

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So just ignoring when they led. Once in 16 years, and then 3 times in 4 years (missing the playoffs all 3 years, so not juggernaut NJ.)

22 teams don't enter into it.

St Louis 5
Detroit 4
New Jersey 4
Dallas 2
Boston 2
Edmonton 1
San Jose 1
Chicago 1

Lowest seasons

STL 1999-00 22.1
STL 2001-02 22.5
STL 1998-99 22.8
DAL 1997-98 22.8
PHI 1998-99 22.9
NJD 2012-13 23.1
The 22 teams who never had the fewest SOGA/GP are certainly part of this data set you're referring to. This is just abuse of statistics, and it's misleading. It is to make it sound like New Jersey wasn't actually elite at shot suppression, when they actually were.

Over the course of those 20 seasons, the Devils had the fewest shots against per game. Reducing it to how many times they - in a 30-team league - were outright last in shots against, is IMO deliberately phrased to obscure that.

If someone made the following point:

"You think the Devils were so good at winning cups? Well, consider this: From 1995 through 2002-03, a span of nine seasons, guess how many cups they won. Just three. 1995, 2000, and 2003. That's all."

...I'd be rightfully called out. Because three in 9 seasons is actually a f***ton, and that means the NHL's other 29 teams won the other six between them.
 

Michael Farkas

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Jun 28, 2006
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I see the underrating of / ignoring Tretiak is at full swing.
Tretiak is available in the first round of voting. So, I'm not sure that he's being underrated or ignored.
The term "Tretiak" appeared 33 times on page 6 alone and that discussion continued on to page 7. So I wouldn't say that he's being ignored.
Also, much of the talk around him is positive. So I don't think he's being underrated either.

Unless you're going to claim that he's the #1 goalie of all time. In which case, I doubt you're going to be able to "drive-by" your way to convincing the panel of that.
 

overpass

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Jun 7, 2007
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Plus, and this may be a stupid way to look at it, but... from watching games, I really think Tretiak is a lot better than the next non-NHL European goalie, both before and after his time. Like, a lot better. So then, the question for me is, how did he become so much better than the others without having elite guys to look at and train under? If he had been dealt the hand Hall had been, developing in Detroit 'under' Terry Sawchuk, then only given the starter reins as a seasoned 24 year old rather than as a green 19 year old... would Tretiak have been even better?

I've been reading Tretiak's book, "Tretiak: A Legend". He had positive things to say about Konovalenko and other older Soviet goalies who were supportive, but his biggest influences were Anatoli Tarasov and Jacques Plante.

Tarasov identified Tretiak as his goaltender of the future when Tretiak was only 15, giving him chances to practice with the senior team, and started working intensively with him after the 1969 European U19 championship, when Tretiak was only 16. Tarasov thought Bohumil Modry was the most physically gifted goaltender he had seen, but Modry didn't apply himself in training. In Tretiak, Tarasov saw another Modry when it came to his physical gifts, and also someone who would apply hard work and intelligence to improve.

Tarasov established a task for himself; to make Tretiak the best goaltender. "The best in the country?" I asked. Anatoly frowned at me. "In the world! Remember this once and for all: In the world!" he said.

Tretiak said that Tarasov put an incredible workload on him. He had three practices a day, and Tarasov frequently invented new exercises just for him. He played in a game almost every day, sometimes for the juniors, the intermediates, or the seniors. And he had to carry a tennis ball with him everywhere off the ice, throwing it and catching it.

Tarasov and Tretiak took Plante as a model for goaltending. Here's Tarasov on Plante, from Tretiak's book.

I studied Plante and noticed that he was using a technique of recoil. He would skate far away from his net to meet the puck carrier, thus decreasing the angle of the shot, and then would recoil back to his net as the player approached. Aha, I though, we can use this technique. I was also stunned by his faultless ability to study his rivals. His intelligence was obvious. He knew how to play each forward that he faced from our team.

Per Tretiak's book, Jacques Plante was interviewed at the 1976 Canada Cup and said Tretiak was the best goaltender in the world. I'd like to get another source for that.

One amusing bit from the book was that Tretiak didn't believe Terry Sawchuk could be a real person.

There are many rumors about the goaltending profession, although truth is greatly mixed with legend. Once, for example, I read that one of the professional teams had a goalie who, in 110 games had not missed a single goal, and that on his face, he had more than four hundred scars. I think that this is a figment of someone's imagination.

Anyway, it's true that Tretiak didn't have great Russian or European goalies to learn from, but the coaching and attention he got from Tarasov as a teenager is probably unique in history. I doubt Sawchuk, Hall, or Plante received anywhere near as much direct instruction.
 

Bear of Bad News

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This is from the Montreal Gazette, September 7, 1976:

1728317941431.png



It's not "best in the world" (and if Plante did say that, I'm surprised it's not mentioned here), and it's possible that the comments came after the tournament.
 

ContrarianGoaltender

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Tarasov and Tretiak took Plante as a model for goaltending. Here's Tarasov on Plante, from Tretiak's book.

I studied Plante and noticed that he was using a technique of recoil. He would skate far away from his net to meet the puck carrier, thus decreasing the angle of the shot, and then would recoil back to his net as the player approached. Aha, I though, we can use this technique. I was also stunned by his faultless ability to study his rivals. His intelligence was obvious. He knew how to play each forward that he faced from our team.

Per Tretiak's book, Jacques Plante was interviewed at the 1976 Canada Cup and said Tretiak was the best goaltender in the world. I'd like to get another source for that.

Didn't find anything to corroborate that quote in Todd Denault's book on Jacques Plante, but Plante was definitely a model for the Russians, which goes back to his performance against them when he stepped in for the Montreal Junior Canadiens against the Soviets in 1965.

Here's Anatoly Tarasov after that game:

"You want me to talk about Jacques Plante? We only knew him by name. Tonight, not only did we meet him, we felt his presence. I'd like to ask you to thank him - to say thank you to Jacques Plante on behalf of all of us. I am speechless when I see him play. I hope I can say that the Russian team deserved to meet such a goaltender. It was a great honour for us to play against him."

Ed Johnston, who was on Team Canada in 1972 although he didn't play, observed that Tretiak was influenced by Plante:

"You can see Jacques' scientific approach in the way Tretiak plays. He doesn't go down on the angles. And he turns with the play when an attacker cuts in front of the net, just the way Jacques does."

And there's this additional quote from Plante on Tretiak, about the conversations the two of them had:

"I didn't really teach him that much, just a little about playing the angles and positioning himself in the net. Tretiak has to learn to use his stick a little more and how to control the puck with it in the goal area."
 

frisco

Some people claim that there's a woman to blame...
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Ken Dryden almost has a Sandy Koufax-esque feel to his career. Seven full seasons and he went: 1-1-1-1-1-2-4 in AS voting. His worst season was 30-9-16. He has the obvious detractions from his body of work (longevity and stacked Habs team) but, on the other hand, what more do you want from him? He basically won the Cup and was first AS every year.

Before he got to Montreal, they missed the playoffs for like the first time ever and there was a big drop off in the year he sat out and after he retired.

My Best-Carey
 

Dennis Bonvie

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Dec 29, 2007
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Ken Dryden almost has a Sandy Koufax-esque feel to his career. Seven full seasons and he went: 1-1-1-1-1-2-4 in AS voting. His worst season was 30-9-16. He has the obvious detractions from his body of work (longevity and stacked Habs team) but, on the other hand, what more do you want from him? He basically won the Cup and was first AS every year.

Before he got to Montreal, they missed the playoffs for like the first time ever and there was a big drop off in the year he sat out and after he retired.

My Best-Carey

258-57-74 in the regular season

80-32 in the playoffs

If it's all about winning
 

jigglysquishy

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Jun 20, 2011
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Regina, Saskatchewan
A few quotes from the Jacques Plante book.

"“It was Jacques Plante, the famous ‘pucktamer,’ the best Canadian goaltender of all time,” Tretiak recalled in his memoirs."


"Ed Johnston of the Boston Bruins, and now the third goaltender for Team Canada, claimed that Plante’s influence on Tretiak’s style was easily detectable. “You can see Jacques’ scientific approach in the way Tretiak plays. He doesn’t go down on the angles. And he turns with the play when an attacker cuts in front of the net, just the way Jacques does.”

Asked by the media to comment on his unofficial student’s play, Plante maintained, “I didn’t really teach him that much, just a little about playing the angles and positioning himself in the net. Tretiak has to learn to use his stick a little more and how to control the puck with it in the goal area.”"


"In studying and analyzing the pros, Plante found one goalie who stood out the most, a goalie whom he sought to emulate more than the others: Terry Sawchuk of the Detroit Red Wings.

Almost a year younger than Plante, Sawchuk had been called up to the NHL in the 1949–50 season, during Plante’s first year with the Royals, but really began to make his mark the following season. Rare has been the player in the history of the game who has made such an immediate impact. Sawchuk had captured the Calder Trophy as the league’s rookie of the year and was named to the first all-star team in 1951. He repeated the first all-star selection each of the following two seasons, as well as copping a pair of Vezina trophies as the leader in goals-against average. But for most people, it was his performance in the 1952 playoffs that forever cemented his reputation as the best goaltender of his day. In eight games, Sawchuk went undefeated, helping the Red Wings win the Stanley Cup with two consecutive sweeps over the Toronto Maple Leafs in the semifinals and then the Canadiens in the finals. Sporting four shutouts, he surrendered only five goals in the other four games, setting a still standing post-season record goals-against average of .63.

Plante watched Sawchuk intently. If Plante aspired to be the best goaltender, then it only made sense for him to study the best. Two aspects of Sawchuk’s game struck Plante. The first was how he would assiduously play the angles when confronting the shooters, a characteristic born of one of Sawchuk’s greatest strengths: his fearlessness between the pipes. The second was Sawchuk’s stance. Standing just an inch short of six feet, Sawchuk managed to crouch incredibly low into his net. By squatting down as much as possible, he was able to keep his sightlines open when looking for oncoming pucks.

“I couldn’t figure out how he was able to block so many screened shots,” Plante told the Hockey News a couple of years later. “Then … I suddenly found out. Sawchuk puts the back edge of his stick flat on the ice, handle and all, blade up. He crouches, watching for the shot to come out of a scramble or from the point. You’d be surprised how many shots are stopped by that stick. You don’t have only the blade, which might be turned in and a goal scored on a hard shot, but the full length of the stick. Besides, the goalie is in position to grab a higher shot faster.”"


"That summer, Jacques wrote a letter to the Canadiens management revealing to them for the first time his greatest secret and asking them to pay for an operation to fix his wrist. A bold Plante promised them that, if they would cover the cost of the operation, he was sure he would be “as good as any goalie in the NHL, not even barring Terry Sawchuk.”"


"Plante finished the regular season seven wins behind the league-leading Glenn Hall, and once again had the fewest losses in the league. His nine shutouts were twice as much as the next leading goaltender’s and five more than Hall’s. Plante’s goals-against average of 2.02 was the league’s best.

And yet Glenn Hall, who finished behind Plante in every statistical category except wins, wrestled the first-team all-star honours from him, and Plante had to settle for being the goalie on the second all-star team."


The following is a real interest quip about net size.

"“The goals aren’t the same size in all the rinks.”

“You’re nuts. They’re all the same everywhere – the official goal nets,” insisted Reardon.

Plante nonchalantly shrugged. “The crossbars at the top are two inches lower in New York, Boston, and Chicago. I know because they hit my back lower there than in the Forum, Toronto, or in Detroit – two inches lower.”

The reporters’ jaws collectively hit the floor. Plante was claiming that there had been a violation in the rules that had resulted in a competitive edge, a violation that had gone undetected by the league.

“Even if you’re right,” protested an incredulous Reardon, “isn’t it the same for all of you goalies playing the circuit?”

“No, it isn’t the same for everybody!” responded Plante. “Glenn Hall plays 35 games at home in Chicago with less goal to protect than I have to protect for 35 games at the Forum in Montreal. We’re both in a race for the Vezina Trophy and that gives him an edge. Do you call it fair?”"
 
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