HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[Michael Farkas]

- Scoring levels.
- That would also hint at the fact that the Bruins team got even tighter as years went by.

All right, so we do need to make some adjustments. It's a shame Rask didn't really get Chara until he was into his mid-30's and effectively finished with Norris contention. That might have helped him have an even bigger advantage, right?

So, we got scoring levels, we have coaches, we have coaching tactics, we have goalie coaches, we have team composition, we have the appreciation and depreciation of the players around goalies, we have strength of schedule...award voting is certainly strongly affected by other, possibly unrelated players in the league (a wide open field for the Vezina, say, in DPE 2.0 is much different than going against prime/MVP Hasek, I'd say)...what else do we have to adjust for? Run support, right? When talking about playoff series wins especially.

I'm sure there's plenty more...

Or...ya know...just...hockey sense, technical skill, skating, compete, size/athleticism/consistency. They'll all present themselves a hell of a lot of quicker and they'll be more consistent over an entire career than that wasp's nest in the first paragraph...

 

[Professor What]

Rask struck me as a more consistent goalie than Thomas. And, well, that's not saying much good about Thomas since Rask is known for his meltdowns. I've got Rask a dozen spots ahead of Thomas, and honestly, I've been wondering if I have Thomas too high.

 

[Michael Farkas]

The difference in consistency - whether it's season to season, game to game, shot to shot, however you slice it, is worlds apart.

Wonder no more, he's too high haha

 

[Michael Farkas]

It'd be great if Gilles Meloche and Denis Herron ended up next to each other on the list.

 

[VanIslander]

It's frustrating to have seen two contemporaries, one of whom clearly played better, and not have others see it.



Just like Beezer vs. Richter. If you were there, you probably knew who was better (if you weren't just going with the cup raiser).

Guys like Vernon, Giguere, Richter, Rask are given undeserved boosts based on team production. They were not among the leading team HEROES; to wit, they were solid role players, not difference makers.

Night after night, Rinne was the best player on his team, and it was well known. Rask? Not so often.

 

[MXD]

Those players are indeed of varying quality (if you ask me 20 times at point blank who's the worst netminder that should be on every long list, Mike Richter would be one of the answers I'd give at least once; while the other three really don't have to be there as far as I'm concerned; I think Rask makes it on my long list, I'm not sure Vernon does and I hope Giguere doesn't ), but yeah, they were more of the solid support than core variety.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Seems like a good time to dump various quotes and things that I've collected myself...some are clipped. Tried to avoid repeats from upthread.

[There's] an argument for Carey Price being the best ever. [The best goalies of the past] did something different than the previous generation. Roy -> butterfly. Hasek -> street hockey style. Brodeur a mix of old school and new school style plus playing the puck. I wouldn’t call it gimmicky, but it’s something.

Price didn’t. He was absolutely elite. I put his 14-15 season up against any single season performance ever.

[Carey Price] is on a whole different level. Incomparable to the rest

Can I rank with gaps? Or can I at least put Price at "0." and then start [the list] at 2?

Price is the best.

Are we really even going in the right direction as a league? Or did Price [set the standard] too high?

Your scale (IQ, Skill, Skating, Compete, Misc.) could probably be catered to goaltending a little better. But if you have five points of goaltending, you might only be as good as your worst one. Price is the best because he doesn't have any weaknesses. He might not be the best at each individual point, but overall...top guy of the last while.

I never saw a goalie better than Marty [Brodeur]...he's almost like the Gretzky of the position...

Bobrovsky is the most overrated goalie now that Lundqvist is done-zo.

(After seeing my tiered list) You overrate Holtby I think.

Chicken or egg? Did Holtby fall apart and the Caps went with him or did the Caps fall apart first...sometimes it's just right place, right time.

[Cory] Schneider, [John] Gibson, and [Juuse] Saros on a list like this?!?! That seems crazy to me, but I don't know the history that much

[Jonathan] Quick should be higher than those guys

(Since lockout) One shot to win it all - [Jonathan] Quick

Good call on [John] Gibson. He's just not durable. He battles through a lot there.

(Andrei Vasilevskiy) Freak athlete that reads plays. I don't know how you rank that, but it's a real nice to have.

He couldn't catch the puck, he couldn't play the puck, rebounds...and you have him up at "B"? (Henrik Lundqvist)

He's a big dude with great reflexes, great athleticism. Ok, so he's not technically perfect...but he works. (Pekka Rinne)

I'm sorry. He just isn't good. Best defense in the league for a while and you couldn't hit his frame sometimes. (Pekka Rinne)

[Rinne's] not for me. I want someone quieter because that style seems to always break down in the clutch. But he deserves a lot of credit for battling back after that procedure. That's a tough surgery for a goalie to come back from. Just on that alone, put him somewhere.

I know [there's a] size difference, but Rinne reminded me of [the older version of] Quick. He's out there slidin around. .... I didn't think his numbers were so good.

What's the big difference between Luongo and Rinne?

Fastest feet I've ever seen...until he stood up lol (Tuukka Rask)

Whoa, Schneids (Cory Schneider)? He was absolutely elite positionally.

Ryan Miller was a technician.

Crow (Corey Crawford) is crossed out? He's a winner. You got a dozen guys that wouldn't be caught dead near the Cup ahead of him...

[Tim Thomas] almost had me believing at the height of it lol but obviously you can't play like that and stick...remember the kid from the OHL that tried to [play that style]?

[Grant] Fuhr was maybe the most entertaining goalie I've seen. Not sure what that's worth...

Gump Worsley - a battler, no defined style.

Gilles Meloche another local product, left you wondering what he could do on a good team.

Bernie Parent. Looked like a future great at 15. Inconsistent until he teamed with Jacques Plante in Toronto.

Believe it or not, Chico Resch used to do almost everything [technically] right. Everyone felt bad at the time about the trade.
...
He also had quite a collection of memorabilia from way back.

I don't remember what happened, but (Donny) Edwards was a good little goalie for a while.

[Vladislav] Tretiak is an A. Forget Jiri [Holocek]

 

[Professor What]

Well, I made a couple of final changes and submitted my list. Got tired of wading through the noise. Looking forward to the next phase.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

I was wondering if I would be the only person to consider John Gibson. I always really liked him, basically from his draft year onwards, up until fairly recently. Another guy who if you put him on a more relevant team, what would he have done? I did end up ranking him.

I thought hard about Holtby, but man... his decline coincides so directly with Mitch Korn leaving. I think he's probably underrated pre-Korn/Trotz, considering the gongshow that was the Adam Oates regime for those two years in Washington, but I couldn't find a spot. Tough for me to leave off a great puck-handler like him, I'm a sucker for those guys.

 

[Professor What]

I was wondering if I would be the only person to consider John Gibson. I always really liked him, basically from his draft year onwards, up until fairly recently. Another guy who if you put him on a more relevant team, what would he have done? I did end up ranking him.

I thought hard about Holtby, but man... his decline coincides so directly with Mitch Korn leaving. I think he's probably underrated pre-Korn/Trotz, considering the gongshow that was the Adam Oates regime for those two years in Washington, but I couldn't find a spot. Tough for me to leave off a great puck-handler like him, I'm a sucker for those guys.

I considered Gibson, but he didn't make the cut for me. He's another one like Irbe that wouldn't have looked out of place to me in that last bit of the list.

On the other hand, I did find room for Holtby, though not in the top 60. I thought about moving him down a bit at the end, but I didn't end up doing it. My feelings won't be hurt if he doesn't make the final list.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Anyone know who the kid from the OHL who tried to play like Tim Thomas was?

 

[MXD]

One point on which I would have preferred Carey Price to have been a little better than he was. He was just good, above average but just good (compared to NHL goalies out there) at tracking and/or understanding where the puck was after a first save or first move.

Had he been elite, as his rebound control, skating and positioning were, this would have helped him greatly when he wasn't 100% (I'm thinking in particular of 2013, when you can clearly see the time in the year when he got injured), and as he was rarely 100% from 2016 onwards, this largely explains the rest of the career.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Anyone know who the kid from the OHL who tried to play like Tim Thomas was?

My memory might be failing me, but gun to my head, I think his name was Mike Murphy and in my head he's associated with Carolina. That doesn't make the answer right, but maybe...

One point on which I would have preferred Carey Price to have been a little better than he was. He was just good, above average but just good (compared to NHL goalies out there) at tracking and/or understanding where the puck was after a first save or first move.

I know this is a near impossible ask, so don't go crazy, but I'm come from a mindset of "it can't hurt to ask" - if you happen to have any video of a goal showing what you're describing, I'd like to see it. Again, your time could be better spent doing anything else, so don't sweat it...

 

[MXD]

I know this is a near impossible ask, so don't go crazy, but I'm come from a mindset of "it can't hurt to ask" - if you happen to have any video of a goal showing what you're describing, I'd like to see it. Again, your time could be better spent doing anything else, so don't sweat it...

I don't have any specific goal in mind -- just the memory of having watched him for well over 700 games.

 

[overpass]

My memory might be failing me, but gun to my head, I think his name was Mike Murphy and in my head he's associated with Carolina. That doesn't make the answer right, but maybe...

Played in Belleville? I randomly remembered him recently and wondered what happened to him...I guess he never made it in the pros. Great junior numbers though.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Played in Belleville? I randomly remembered him recently and wondered what happened to him...I guess he never made it in the pros. Great junior numbers though.

Yup, just confirmed that it is. It's actually so perfect for the discussion because this is more or less what was meant to happen with all of these style of goalies. He has a highlight reel on YT that looks awesome at a glance, then you watch the 2008 Memorial Cup game that is up there and it becomes obvious why only lower levels and absolutely perfect situations can fight against this goofball style.

On a semi-related note, the more I watch, the less sympathetic Tony Esposito and Rogie Vachon have become. Instead, it's Herron and Meloche that I think should have gotten the what-if...Esposito and Vachon had their chance. Montreal was right to choose the more reliable (albeit imperfect) Dryden over Espo, Vachon, and Worsley - shaking all three of them in consecutive seasons.

 

[nabby12]

List is submitted! Just a reminder for everyone to try and get them in sometime on Friday.

 

[MadArcand]

Former Pro Goalie said:
Bobrovsky is the most overrated goalie now that Lundqvist is done-zo.
Former Pro Goalie said:
He couldn't catch the puck, he couldn't play the puck, rebounds...and you have him up at "B"? (Henrik Lundqvist)

Played in Belleville? I randomly remembered him recently and wondered what happened to him...I guess he never made it in the pros. Great junior numbers though.

Not as great as his pro numbers, 1.000% SV% and 0.00 GA are hard to beat

 

[jigglysquishy]

List is in. Looking forward to some exciting round two discussion.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I'll need as much time as I can get, so - and I said this in the PM - if there's a number of participants that we're vaguely expecting, can I get a "two minute person warning"? haha

I was actually hoping to let this bleed into the weekend a bit, but I don't want to be the stick in the mud (excuse my language)...

 

[bobholly39]

I'm not ready. Will try to find some more time this afternoon but if not definitely this weekend.

Any sense of how many lists we have? It would be amazing if there ends up being 20+ voters. There were so many active participants in this thread, but I'm not sure how many are submitting a list.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

I'll need as much time as I can get, so - and I said this in the PM - if there's a number of participants that we're vaguely expecting, can I get a "two minute person warning"? haha

I was actually hoping to let this bleed into the weekend a bit, but I don't want to be the stick in the mud (excuse my language)...

All good, will do.

I'm not ready. Will try to find some more time this afternoon but if not definitely this weekend.

Any sense of how many lists we have? It would be amazing if there ends up being 20+ voters. There were so many active participants in this thread, but I'm not sure how many are submitting a list.

I think we'll get to 20 when it's all said and done. I know quite a few have told me they'll be submitting over the weekend so I won't be sure on the total for another few days.

 

[tony d]

List submitted. I feel like after the top 20-25 it’s a bit of a crapshoot. Should be interesting to see the final ranking.

 

[MXD]

Random ramblings :
- Some people expressed the wish to have seen Vasilevski play a bit more under not super favorable circumstances. Personally, the one current netminder that puzzles me the most, and that I'd REALLY like to benefit from 24-25 before ranking, is Linus Ullmark. I can absolutely not touch him as things stand. But if the Sens are somehow in the playoffs this season, that would.. probably involve Ullmark showing that what he did with the Bruins wasn't a fluke.

- I ranked Ed Giacomin. I nearly didn't.

- Didn't even think about ranking Sorokin, I don't know if it's the right thing.

- Another big dropper from the earlier project? Harry Lumley. I wasn't high on him at any point, but thought he was still a worthy Top-40. Probably better than Gerry McNeil. ... Probably.

 

[Professor What]

Not sure why, but one of the things that interests me the most is seeing how many different guys are represented on the ballots. I think there were 94 for the top 40 project with 60-name lists. Are we going to see 120-150 names come up? Seems hard to believe that there could be that many worthy, but as there's probably going to be a logjam for those last spots, I think it's possible.