Hindsight - Dubas or Hunter?

[Sypher04]

Coaching wasn't their only problem, and I'm not sure anyone ever suggested it was, but under Babcock it absolutely was a contributor. Any other viewpoint quite frankly is just equivalent to burying your head in the sand. There was not rational explanation for a great many of the choices Babcock made. Not to mention the mind games he played with some of the players on the team, as we found out about only after his firing.

 

[Gabriel426]

I thought that Babcock and Lamoriello were more on the same page than Babcock and Dubas? At least that's what I remember reading. One example I can think is during the start of the 2017-2018 season Lou had re-signed Roman Polak who was previously with them in training camp on a tryout, since he suffered that knee injury against Washington in the 2017 playoffs. When I first heard the news I said to myself Babcock told Lou he wanted to bring back Polak and Lou was obviously okay with that.

Yes, that’s what I thought too but take a look at how Babs played Martin. Not saying Martin is a great player but he was our 14th forward. Or what happened to Leivo. I just don’t think Babs and Lou were on the same page as we think.

 

[Gabriel426]

The short answer is he lucked into having the only job opening when the Cup champ coach decided to walk. Players don't mysteriously go from worst to best defensive team overnight.

Can a coach really made that big of a difference? Their roster was essentially the same minus JT but added Leo and Martin.

What I am trying to say, how come Lou could not or didn’t trade for a Dman for the Leafs while he was here. He fixed our goalie situation in literally 3months by trading for Andersen and than McBackup and Pickard, literally two weeks into the season.

 

[Gabriel426]

They have a guy named Barzal that took over for Tavares.

As for Martin, that had more to do with the 2.5 million a season he was making. You just can't pay a fourth liner that much.

My point had more to do with Lou didn’t get us a defender. Or another defender beside Hainsey. Even for a rental at the TDL.

 

[BrainyBomber]

Buffoon is your word. While not all of them are Leaf fans, the one thing unanimous is that Dubas never should have been hired as an NHL GM.

I think there’s exceptions to every rule but someone whose gone from stick boy to managing a flagship franchise in 10 years hasn’t received an equivalent education.

I’ve come to like Keefe. I was skeptical initially that he’d be a puppet for the GM but having payed closer attention the last little while, I’m of the belief that the Leafs still don’t have a coaching problem. I’m particularly impressed with how he’s handled the past week and would like to see what he could do with a legitimate contending team.

Anything else, I’m sure I’ve addressed it at some point over the past 20 months or whatever it’s been. Not really interested in repeating myself.

My word yes but he would have to be a "buffoon" to meet your criteria of worst Leafs hire ever.

I think if you check polling on this site it's not unanimous that Dubas should never have been hired as a majority don't even think he should be canned now.

I too was highly sceptical of his hiring at first given his lack of experience but after further research and close scrutiny he quickly won me over and I believe as you say - there are exceptions to every rule.

Not all great managers in sports played at a high level. For instance Mourinho is one of the most successful soccer managers of all time (although clearly past it now) despite not playing professionally. It's true you lose out on some firsthand experience but he brought other things to the table especially psychological science that was untapped in the game.

Dubas is obviously a talented and smart man. He was the youngest every player agent and rose up the management ranks exceedingly quickly in the OHL and AHL with success. He impresses many people in management and would easily have a high flying non-sports corporate career if he wanted too. Like Mourinho he has a degree in sports management and although not a specialist in psychology like him his data analytics expertise is the new wave in sports.

Perhaps he was hired by the Leafs too young. But make no mistake he would be a GM of another team right now if we hadn't promoted him. After 50+ years of nearly unmitigated Leafs failure I like the idea of trying something different. Hiring the best old school coach in Babcock just turned out poorly just like every other GM hire we've made save for Fletcher. So I for one am willing to atleast give Dubas a typical evaluation period of 4 years and re-evaluate then, rather strangle the baby in the crib.

 

[LeafsNation75]

My point had more to do with Lou didn’t get us a defender. Or another defender beside Hainsey. Even for a rental at the TDL.

Lou's last trade before the 2018 trade deadline was getting Tomas Plekanec. There was talk about Toronto being in on Ryan McDonagh and for whatever reason Lou didn't trade for him and he went to Tampa Bay instead.

 

[Gabriel426]

Lou's last trade before the 2018 trade deadline was getting Tomas Plekanec. There was talk about Toronto being in on Ryan McDonagh and for whatever reason Lou didn't trade for him and he went to Tampa Bay instead.

Like I said, I find it strange Lou couldn’t get another Dman beside Hainsey. Esp since Leafs got cap space, draft picks and prospects.
Don’t remembered what TB gave up for McDonagh but I am certain Leafs had the assets to make that trade.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Like I said, I find it strange Lou couldn’t get another Dman beside Hainsey. Esp since Leafs got cap space, draft picks and prospects.
Don’t remembered what TB gave up for McDonagh but I am certain Leafs had the assets to make that trade.

J.T. Miller was also traded with McDonagh and Tampa Bay gave up Brett Howden, Vladislav Namestnikov, Libor Hajek, 2018 1st round pick and 2019 conditional 2nd round pick.

I think it was reported the Rangers asked for Liljegren and besides that we won't know since it was Lou who never tells the media anything. Toronto would have also given up their 2018 1st round pick and that meant not getting Sandin.

 

[93LEAFS]

You seem to be going to great lengths to bring up a bunch of points that have no bearing on the issue (and in some of your logic actually supporting that which you are arguing against). There is a fair bit of literature on Lou and his stance on bonuses as well as how it was a hold up in Matthews ' contract. You can believe what you like but there is mountains of info that doesn't agree.

Again, why wasn't his ELC done prior to Lou, who didn't come until very late in the negoiations. They aren't going to pull an offer off the table like that. Again, everyone in the draft taken ahead of him had there deals done before Lou arrived.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Again, why wasn't his ELC done prior to Lou, who didn't come until very late in the negoiations. They aren't going to pull an offer off the table like that. Again, everyone in the draft taken ahead of him had there deals done before Lou arrived.

That's a fair question to ask, however you have to wonder why didn't Lou step aside and let Dubas and Hunter finish the negotiations with Marner on his ELC since they were the Co Interim GM's before he was hired.

 

[93LEAFS]

That's a fair question to ask, however you have to wonder why didn't Lou step aside and let Dubas and Hunter finish the negotiations with Marner on his ELC since they were the Co Interim GM's before he was hired.

There were never schedule B bonuses in the offer, they wouldn't have pulled the bait and switch.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

Hunter mainly cause of his scouting/drafting. I don't think there's many better than him. As bad as a GM Benning is, he is probably the best at scouting/drafting in my opinion. Hunter is prob top 5 for me.

What evidence is there of Hunter being any better at drafting than Dubas?

Drafting early is much easier than finding a Sandin at 29, or Robertson at 53.

 

[TheScandal89]

How is Lou last, these 2 are scrubs compared to Lou . He quickly turned that joke of a franchise the Islanders into a better team then ours. Even with their best player leaving them for us...

He didn't start our build but he was loading us with assets, which Dubas has mainly traded away now. Dubas has overpaid for every Contract and trade to date and made the team worse. Muzzin was the only good player he brought in. Tavares fell into his lap, he didn't do anything on that, he was coming no matter who was gm.

I'm not saying Lou is the goat GM, but hes better then these guys unquestionably, with a better resume and more success then Dubas in the past 1.75 years

 

[Gabriel426]

J.T. Miller was also traded with McDonagh and Tampa Bay gave up Brett Howden, Vladislav Namestnikov, Libor Hajek, 2018 1st round pick and 2019 conditional 2nd round pick.

I think it was reported the Rangers asked for Liljegren and besides that we won't know since it was Lou who never tells the media anything. Toronto would have also given up their 2018 1st round pick and that meant not getting Sandin.

JT Miller and McDonagh for TL and possibly Sandin. I think I will take Miller and McDonagh.
Miller and McDonagh solves two holes. It also would allow Leafs to trade AJ for picks could possible end up with Sandin since Sandin was literally drafted 29 overall and could possibly be an early 2nd rounder. Most likely Jake would also be traded for picks and future in the summer.

 

[Gabriel426]

How is Lou last, these 2 are scrubs compared to Lou . He quickly turned that joke of a franchise the Islanders into a better team then ours. Even with their best player leaving them for us...

He didn't start our build but he was loading us with assets, which Dubas has mainly traded away now. Dubas has overpaid for every Contract and trade to date and made the team worse. Muzzin was the only good player he brought in. Tavares fell into his lap, he didn't do anything on that, he was coming no matter who was gm.

I'm not saying Lou is the goat GM, but hes better then these guys unquestionably, with a better resume and more success then Dubas in the past 1.75 years

I completely agree. But like you said, he is not the GOAT. He couldn’t get the Leafs any good Dman beside Hainsey despite having cap space, picks and prospects.
Looking at what he has done with the Islanders in 1 1/2 yrs with less talents and resources than the Leafs is amazing. However, question is how come Lou couldn’t do that when he was with the Leafs.
His first year was a sell off year, which he did amazing. Could be better at the end as PAP and Grabner was still around but he did great.
His second year was a wait and see year, as Leafs started with 8-9 rookies and nobody know how the kids would do. Getting Boyle was great but I don’t see why he could not resign him, Leafs got cap space, and he certainly fills a great need for the Leafs plus he would allow Leafs to trade Bozak in the summer.
Anyhow, what’s done is done

 

[LeafsNation75]

How is Lou last, these 2 are scrubs compared to Lou . He quickly turned that joke of a franchise the Islanders into a better team then ours. Even with their best player leaving them for us...

He didn't start our build but he was loading us with assets, which Dubas has mainly traded away now. Dubas has overpaid for every Contract and trade to date and made the team worse. Muzzin was the only good player he brought in. Tavares fell into his lap, he didn't do anything on that, he was coming no matter who was gm.

I'm not saying Lou is the goat GM, but hes better then these guys unquestionably, with a better resume and more success then Dubas in the past 1.75 years

Lou's only big move was trading for Andersen. They had already drafted Nylander and Marner in 2014 and 2015. So I don't give him credit for drafting Matthews since any GM would have done that with the 1st overall pick.

 

[IPS]

Must be some weird coincidence that the Islanders have hit a huge tailspin since their unsustainable goaltending dried up.

How is Lou last, these 2 are scrubs compared to Lou . He quickly turned that joke of a franchise the Islanders into a better team then ours. Even with their best player leaving them for us...

Yeah they're probably missing the playoffs...

 

[Menzinger]

I thought that Babcock and Lamoriello were more on the same page than Babcock and Dubas? At least that's what I remember reading. One example I can think is during the start of the 2017-2018 season Lou had re-signed Roman Polak who was previously with them in training camp on a tryout, since he suffered that knee injury against Washington in the 2017 playoffs. When I first heard the news I said to myself Babcock told Lou he wanted to bring back Polak and Lou was obviously okay with that.

It certainly seemed that Babcock amd Lou were close - definitely has been imoed by the media that it was the case.. bancocl likely able to get more of a say in personnel decisopns ie the Marleau signing.

Though there were also some dovodes - like Babock had zero time for Martin, who was clearly a favourite of Lous

 

[LeafsNation75]

Must be some weird coincidence that the Islanders have hit a huge tailspin since their unsustainable goaltending dried up.


Yeah they're probably missing the playoffs...

If the Islanders miss the playoffs this season after having a 15 game point streak, I wonder how much blame Lamoriello will get for that? Can you imagine Toronto having a point streak like that and missing the playoffs. The media would have a field day and Leafs fans would be blaming Dubas.

 

[Menzinger]

Must be some weird coincidence that the Islanders have hit a huge tailspin since their unsustainable goaltending dried up.


Yeah they're probably missing the playoffs...

I see parallels to his time in Toronto

Lou is at his best bringing stability to an organization thats in chaos. His best moves in Toronto all happened during his first season with the team.

Lous problem comes with the "build" part of the equation. His standard move is to turn to secondary and depth levels vets in free agency. It was the same thing during his last few years with the Devils

 

[LeafsNation75]

Lous problem comes with the "build" part of the equation. His standard move is to turn to secondary and depth leveks vets in free agency. It was the same thing during his last few years with the Devils

Besides Martin Brodeur, Lou has failed at either re-signing or signing big name UFA's. With the Devils he lost Scott Niedermayer and Zach Parise, with the Islanders he lost John Tavares and with Toronto he failed to sign Steven Stamkos.

 

[TheScandal89]

I completely agree. But like you said, he is not the GOAT. He couldn’t get the Leafs any good Dman beside Hainsey despite having cap space, picks and prospects.
Looking at what he has done with the Islanders in 1 1/2 yrs with less talents and resources than the Leafs is amazing. However, question is how come Lou couldn’t do that when he was with the Leafs.
His first year was a sell off year, which he did amazing. Could be better at the end as PAP and Grabner was still around but he did great.
His second year was a wait and see year, as Leafs started with 8-9 rookies and nobody know how the kids would do. Getting Boyle was great but I don’t see why he could not resign him, Leafs got cap space, and he certainly fills a great need for the Leafs plus he would allow Leafs to trade Bozak in the summer.
Anyhow, what’s done is done

With the young core, picks and prospects he had the luxury of waiting for the right deal to present itself.

Let it be known again, I never said he was the goat, he still turned the recently turned the Islanders around quickly and won cups before. Maybe they'll miss the playoffs but look at that divison.

I never even said hes the right guy for the job, I just said hes better then Dubas and Hunter and until Dubas shuts me up, I continue to believe that. I hope he does too, I'd rather be wrong and each of you laugh in my face one by one and win the cup then be right. To me he should've started in a different market first to experiment.

 

[Gabriel426]

With the young core, picks and prospects he had the luxury of waiting for the right deal to present itself.

Let it be known again, I never said he was the goat, he still turned the recently turned the Islanders around quickly and won cups before. Maybe they'll miss the playoffs but look at that divison.

I never even said hes the right guy for the job, I just said hes better then Dubas and Hunter and until Dubas shuts me up, I continue to believe that. I hope he does too, I'd rather be wrong and each of you laugh in my face one by one and win the cup then be right. To me he should've started in a different market first to experiment.

Like I said, I agree with you. Just the fact that he got the Islanders with a lot less talents is prove he is better than Dubas for now.
Would love to see Dubas become a better GM than Lou.

 

[TheScandal89]

Besides Martin Brodeur, Lou has failed at either re-signing or signing big name UFA's. With the Devils he lost Scott Niedermayer and Zach Parise, with the Islanders he lost John Tavares and with Toronto he failed to sign Steven Stamkos.

You can't blame him for the last 2, we were a joke when Stamkos was becoming a UFA. Fans throwing pancakes and jerseys on the ice. Chanting Lets go Raptors/Blue Jays when we were getting embarassed on the Ice. Tavares was leaving, lou just arrived there and while he signed Trotz, nothing was stopping him.

 

[LeafsNation75]

You can't blame him for the last 2, we were a joke when Stamkos was becoming a UFA. Fans throwing pancakes and jerseys on the ice. Chanting Lets go Raptors/Blue Jays when we were getting embarassed on the Ice. Tavares was leaving, lou just arrived there and while he signed Trotz, nothing was stopping him.

Lou had talked to Tavares 5 days before the Islanders officially hired him, so they obviously thought he would have been the difference to make sure he re-signed and he still failed at that.