Hindsight - Dubas or Hunter?

[The Podium]

Umm, a lot of the Dubas supporters put everything that doesn't work on other people. Blaming Lou for prior roster make-up, ignoring Lou got rid of terrible contracts like Dion, I've seen them try to blame ownership with no evidence for trading Kadri and trying to compete this year, they blamed Babcock for everything despite not realizing it was a two-way street and neither party did the other any favors.

The amount of pro-Dubas supporters who were lining up to call out Hunter when Canada lost to Russia just reeked of a vendetta, and was pretty funny when they pulled off winning gold.

I think most Dubas supports will credit Lou for what Lou did right.

Things I appreciate:
- Changing the losing culture
- Getting rid of Phaneuf
- Trusting his scouts (Marner over Hanifin)
- Acquiring the strongest goaltending duo this team has seen in decades

Things he got wrong:
- Overpaid/committed too long to Marleau, Martin, Zaitsev
- Never attempted to fix the D
- Burned bridges with players over pennies on their ELC bonuses

We could also criticize Dubas

Things he got right:
- JT, Muzzin, Campbell
- Signing of his depth players to proper term and dollar
- Good drafting in his short time here
- Strength throughout the organization (AHL and NHL)
- Finding gems in what was previewed you be marginal NHL players
- Nylanders contract (oooh controversy)

The bad:
- Term on Matthews
- Dollar on Marner
- Backup debacle
- Barrie was the wrong target (although this is a double edged sword, I don’t mind the return value wise, but Barrie doesn’t fit)

Overall Lou littered the team with bad contracts that were nearly immovable, Dubas overpaid his 2 (3?) best players who still have a net positive value. I prefer Dubas if you look at their total body of work, since at least Dubas is slowly taking care of our weaknesses (D) which Lou never did.

 

[sparxx87]

Predictive analytics then whatever you want to call it:
How AI systems beat Vegas oddsmakers in sports forecasting accuracy

Oh, I knew what you were talking about.

 

[BrainyBomber]

Considering Dubas is the worst hire in franchise history, I’d choose several people ahead of him.

In fact, there’s several HF posters with better hockey resumes than Dubas. I’d prefer most of them at this point.

Clearly not been a Leafs fan long. The sheer amount of incompetent muppets that have walked through those doors the past 100 years and you think Dubas is the worst

Go on then name some posters that would be preferable as Leafs GM?

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Clearly not been a Leafs fan long. The sheer amount of incompetent muppets that have walked through those doors the past 100 years and you think Dubas is the worst

Go on then name some posters that would be preferable as Leafs GM?

Yeah statements like those kill me the same way as statements around Kessel being a "worst Leaf trade ever". Just kind of screams "I haven't followed the Leafs much".

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

That wasn't Lou. That was primarily Shanahan and Pridham. Lou obviously was difficult about bonuses, but he was essentially a non-factor on the Marner ELC negotiation. All of the 3 picks before Marner were signed before Lou even arrived, and Marner was only signed 5 days after Lou arrived (July 23rd 2015 to July 28th 2015). It is not like you need a GM really to sign a slot ELC deal. This was a move set in motion before Lou was named GM. For reference, McDavid signed July 3rd, Eichel signed July 1st and Strome signed on July 6th all with significant bonus packages. Now, you could say they had an inkling Lou was coming, but there's no way they would have held out on bonuses for McDavid or Eichel for a GM who might be coming. During this time frame between July 1st and July 23rd many major roster moves were made (including the Kessel deal). Nylander got his bonuses, but people need to realize Pridham wasn't hired to be part of the Leafs until a day after Nylander signed his ELC.

You seem to be going to great lengths to bring up a bunch of points that have no bearing on the issue (and in some of your logic actually supporting that which you are arguing against). There is a fair bit of literature on Lou and his stance on bonuses as well as how it was a hold up in Matthews ' contract. You can believe what you like but there is mountains of info that doesn't agree.

 

[Jeffrey Pedler]

Hunter is not a GM in the NHL, pretty hard to see what he could do as a GM.
As for Lou Vs Dubas.
Lou got the Islanders without JT into the 2nd round by beating the Pens. Say all you want about overachieving.... that’s a huge win for Lou.
Having said that, one needs to wonder how come Lou couldn’t get the Leafs into the 2nd round. As he had 2yrs to do it, with a more talented roster and a very good coach. When Lou was here, he got all the cap space as the kids were all in their ELCs. Got enough prospects in the pipeline to make trades plus a lot of UFAs contract which won’t be resign with the Leafs. Yet Lou still couldn’t get a solid Dman for the Leafs.
Could it be that Babs didn’t share the same vision as Lou bc both Martin and Leo seems to be solid NHLers playing for the Islanders where one of them could barely keep up with the team and the other one is the 14th forward with the Leafs. As for Zai, his performance nosedived after Lou left. Did Lou misjudged talents or Babs showing Lou is a bad GM by giving that contract to Zai.
Those will be better discussions than comparing what would Hunter do if he is GM....

They have a guy named Barzal that took over for Tavares.

As for Martin, that had more to do with the 2.5 million a season he was making. You just can't pay a fourth liner that much.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Hunter for sure. We can talk about what he would have done and how the Leafs would have performed without ever needing reality. We can even say " prove me wrong" if any one has a different opinion.

 

[Jeffrey Pedler]

I think most Dubas supports will credit Lou for what Lou did right.

Things I appreciate:
- Changing the losing culture
- Getting rid of Phaneuf
- Trusting his scouts (Marner over Hanifin)
- Acquiring the strongest goaltending duo this team has seen in decades

Things he got wrong:
- Overpaid/committed too long to Marleau, Martin, Zaitsev
- Never attempted to fix the D
- Burned bridges with players over pennies on their ELC bonuses

We could also criticize Dubas

Things he got right:
- JT, Muzzin, Campbell
- Signing of his depth players to proper term and dollar
- Good drafting in his short time here
- Strength throughout the organization (AHL and NHL)
- Finding gems in what was previewed you be marginal NHL players
- Nylanders contract (oooh controversy)

The bad:
- Term on Matthews
- Dollar on Marner
- Backup debacle
- Barrie was the wrong target (although this is a double edged sword, I don’t mind the return value wise, but Barrie doesn’t fit)

Overall Lou littered the team with bad contracts that were nearly immovable, Dubas overpaid his 2 (3?) best players who still have a net positive value. I prefer Dubas if you look at their total body of work, since at least Dubas is slowly taking care of our weaknesses (D) which Lou never did.

Lou wasn't GM at the time of the Marner/Dermott draft, Dubas and Hunter were sharing GM duties at the time. Lou wasn't named GM till July 23rd.

Barrie was the right target, due to the Leafs PP going downhill near the end of last season. Barrie at 2.75, is much better than Gardiner at 4+.

 

[Stephen]

The thing that makes little sense about the Dubas overwhelming skill experiment is when we won last night it was many other ingredients that stepped up. They didn’t need skill skill skill but did need total buy in and attention to detail and hustle.

Aka why not just diversify the roster with more players who play that kind of game to support the elite skill we have in key positions already?

 

[Lauro]

Too early to tell for hindsight but it looks to be the right decision.

 

[Nithoniniel]

The thing that makes little sense about the Dubas overwhelming skill experiment is when we won last night it was many other ingredients that stepped up. They didn’t need skill skill skill but did need total buy in and attention to detail and hustle.

Aka why not just diversify the roster with more players who play that kind of game to support the elite skill we have in key positions already?

The thing that doesn't make sense about the "overwhelming skill experiment" is that it doesn't even exist, yet people continue to talk about it.

He's done exactly what you ask for here. He acquired the gritty two-way d-man who led the way both on and off ice for us. He's added tons of experience and leadership in support roles, he acquired toughness and grit in Clifford. He has not gone out and tried to get as much skill as possible to the detriment of any other qualities. I'm not sure the team has even developed in that direction over the last year or so.

 

[justafan22]

Funny thing about Hunter:

When the Leafs were relying on him heavily, they passed on London Knight Robert Thomas for Timothy Liljegren. I like Liljegren a bit, but imagine this team with Thomas..

 

[Walshy7]

Hunter for sure. We can talk about what he would have done and how the Leafs would have performed without ever needing reality. We can even say " prove me wrong" if any one has a different opinion.

prove yourself right

 

[sparxx87]

Clearly not been a Leafs fan long. The sheer amount of incompetent muppets that have walked through those doors the past 100 years and you think Dubas is the worst

Go on then name some posters that would be preferable as Leafs GM?

Theres been some bad ones and it’s certainly up for debate, no question.. My comment was as much a prediction as it was an assessment. If you don’t buy it now than give it some time.

I’m not going to name names, but I know for certain that at least two current posters played professionally and another half dozen that have played major junior.. That’s before we get into those I don’t know but seem credible when they claim the same.

Realistically, I don’t think anyone should be hired off the street for that job.. but in favour of Dubas? Sure.

 

[Jeffrey Pedler]

The thing that makes little sense about the Dubas overwhelming skill experiment is when we won last night it was many other ingredients that stepped up. They didn’t need skill skill skill but did need total buy in and attention to detail and hustle.

Aka why not just diversify the roster with more players who play that kind of game to support the elite skill we have in key positions already?

What are you talking about? Winning puck battles takes skill! Back checking takes skill!

Everything in hockey takes skill. Some players will have different skills than others. Fourth liners aren't going to have goal scoring skills like first liners, but they will bring a different skill set.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Seems some think Dubas wants speed and passing ability that's it

 

[ShaneFalco]

Theres been some bad ones and it’s certainly up for debate, no question.. My comment was as much a prediction as it was an assessment. If you don’t buy it now than give it some time.

I’m not going to name names, but I know for certain that at least two current posters played professionally and another half dozen that have played major junior.. That’s before we get into those I don’t know but seem credible when they claim the same.

Realistically, I don’t think anyone should be hired off the street for that job.. but in favour of Dubas? Sure.

Your hatred of Dubas is on the bizarre side. Especially when you're not even really a Leaf fan but somehow allowed to troll here

 

[Bomber0104]

Yeah statements like those kill me the same way as statements around Kessel being a "worst Leaf trade ever". Just kind of screams "I haven't followed the Leafs much".

And even more embarrassing were the people that tirelessly defended the Kessel trade and Brian Burke!

Eh eyeball11 ?

 

[4thline]

The thing that makes little sense about the Dubas overwhelming skill experiment is when we won last night it was many other ingredients that stepped up. They didn’t need skill skill skill but did need total buy in and attention to detail and hustle.

Aka why not just diversify the roster with more players who play that kind of game to support the elite skill we have in key positions already?

@Nithoniniel answered one part well. But as to "why not diversify more" - you answered yourself but didn't realize it. The roster was the same last night. It was our current players that stepped up and played with those ingredients, the buy in, hustle, and attention to detail.

Buy in, hustle, and attention to detail + better players = better team
Buy in, hustle and attention to detail + worse players = worse team

 

[dubey]

The same people that wanted Lou gone are the same people voting for him in hindsight lol (besides the NYI fans lurking - hi guys - slow day?)

Hunter picks are pretty funny too given it's another GM with 0 NHL exec experience

For me personally it's either Dubas or Other but there's a lot of luck/timing involved in being a GM so not convinced there's another person that would/could do better

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

The thing that makes little sense about the Dubas overwhelming skill experiment is when we won last night it was many other ingredients that stepped up. They didn’t need skill skill skill but did need total buy in and attention to detail and hustle.

Aka why not just diversify the roster with more players who play that kind of game to support the elite skill we have in key positions already?

While I agree with your post, why can't our highly skilled team just try and play like they give a s*** every night. We've seen what this team can do when they want. It isn't hard to just play to your assignments.

 

[BrainyBomber]

Theres been some bad ones and it’s certainly up for debate, no question.. My comment was as much a prediction as it was an assessment. If you don’t buy it now than give it some time.

I’m not going to name names, but I know for certain that at least two current posters played professionally and another half dozen that have played major junior.. That’s before we get into those I don’t know but seem credible when they claim the same.

Realistically, I don’t think anyone should be hired off the street for that job.. but in favour of Dubas? Sure.

So these 8 posters here that you know who were atleast former Major Junior players do they all think Dubas is a total buffoon as you and obviously many posters here do?

I'm guessing not having played at a high level makes someone not cut out to be GM in your eyes so if Dubas had played atleast Major Junior would that make him much more credible?

Is Keefe also a total buffoon? Since he and Dubas go way back, share similar philosophies and was hired by Dubas for his first NHL gig. However, he did play at a high level obviously.

 

[Durrr]

I think most Dubas supports will credit Lou for what Lou did right.

Things I appreciate:
- Changing the losing culture
- Getting rid of Phaneuf
- Trusting his scouts (Marner over Hanifin)
- Acquiring the strongest goaltending duo this team has seen in decades

Things he got wrong:
- Overpaid/committed too long to Marleau, Martin, Zaitsev
- Never attempted to fix the D
- Burned bridges with players over pennies on their ELC bonuses

We could also criticize Dubas

Things he got right:
- JT, Muzzin, Campbell
- Signing of his depth players to proper term and dollar
- Good drafting in his short time here
- Strength throughout the organization (AHL and NHL)
- Finding gems in what was previewed you be marginal NHL players
- Nylanders contract (oooh controversy)

The bad:
- Term on Matthews
- Dollar on Marner
- Backup debacle
- Barrie was the wrong target (although this is a double edged sword, I don’t mind the return value wise, but Barrie doesn’t fit)

Overall Lou littered the team with bad contracts that were nearly immovable, Dubas overpaid his 2 (3?) best players who still have a net positive value. I prefer Dubas if you look at their total body of work, since at least Dubas is slowly taking care of our weaknesses (D) which Lou never did.

I think your lists are spot on, other then Barrie. I don't think the fact that Barrie is a poor fit here really mean's the trade was bad. On paper, he made a pretty significant move to shore up a area of weakness from a position of strength. Kadri also nixed the first deal with the Flames, which could have been a better trade (we may never know).

 

[AvroArrow]

Hunter mainly cause of his scouting/drafting. I don't think there's many better than him. As bad as a GM Benning is, he is probably the best at scouting/drafting in my opinion. Hunter is prob top 5 for me.

 

[sparxx87]

So these 8 posters here that you know who were atleast former Major Junior players do they all think Dubas is a total buffoon as you and obviously many posters here do?

I'm guessing not having played at a high level makes someone not cut out to be GM in your eyes so if Dubas had played atleast Major Junior would that make him much more credible?

Is Keefe also a total buffoon? Since he and Dubas go way back, share similar philosophies and was hired by Dubas for his first NHL gig. However, he did play at a high level obviously.

Buffoon is your word. While not all of them are Leaf fans, the one thing unanimous is that Dubas never should have been hired as an NHL GM.

I think there’s exceptions to every rule but someone whose gone from stick boy to managing a flagship franchise in 10 years hasn’t received an equivalent education.

I’ve come to like Keefe. I was skeptical initially that he’d be a puppet for the GM but having payed closer attention the last little while, I’m of the belief that the Leafs still don’t have a coaching problem. I’m particularly impressed with how he’s handled the past week and would like to see what he could do with a legitimate contending team.

Anything else, I’m sure I’ve addressed it at some point over the past 20 months or whatever it’s been. Not really interested in repeating myself.