Hindsight - Dubas or Hunter?

[Stephen]

The thing that doesn't make sense about the "overwhelming skill experiment" is that it doesn't even exist, yet people continue to talk about it.

He's done exactly what you ask for here. He acquired the gritty two-way d-man who led the way both on and off ice for us. He's added tons of experience and leadership in support roles, he acquired toughness and grit in Clifford. He has not gone out and tried to get as much skill as possible to the detriment of any other qualities. I'm not sure the team has even developed in that direction over the last year or so.

So when they play a mostly non contact forecheck, show an inability to typically stop a cycle just by playing the body against the boards, insist on playing a drop pass happy transition game and cycle through an endless cast of small players in bottom six roles and publicly make statements about speed and skill being the foremost ingredient they look for, that's not representative of the program they want to build?

We have the high end skill. What we need are the various other support roles that will allow them to play like the Pittsburgh shutout win the majority of the time.

 

[bonjovi0308]

I have actually been very curious on how Lou is going to handle differently when signing our Big 3.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I have actually been very curious on how Lou is going to handle differently when signing our Big 3.

In July 2017 which was 1 year before he was an RFA, Nylander was eligible to sign an extension Lou failed to get that done.

 

[BertCorbeau]

I see parallels to his time in Toronto

Lou is at his best bringing stability to an organization thats in chaos. His best moves in Toronto all happened during his first season with the team.

Lous problem comes with the "build" part of the equation. His standard move is to turn to secondary and depth levels vets in free agency. It was the same thing during his last few years with the Devils

IIRC Lou has barely made any moves to improve the Isles offense. Signing Varlamov was the big thing but beyond that nothing else. Up until the trade for Andy Green last week, the last trade Lou made was for Matt Martin.

I'm not entirely sure Lou would have gone for moves like the Muzzin deal, or Zaitsev trade, etc.

Basically set the team up to have a high floor, but a low ceiling. Good enough to be on the playoff bubble, not good enough to be a true contender.

Now he has to re-sign Barzal - that should be interesting.

 

[Stephen]

IIRC Lou has barely made any moves to improve the Isles offense. Signing Varlamov was the big thing but beyond that nothing else. Up until the trade for Andy Green last week, the last trade Lou made was for Matt Martin.

I'm not entirely sure Lou would have gone for moves like the Muzzin deal, or Zaitsev trade, etc.

Basically set the team up to have a high floor, but a low ceiling. Good enough to be on the playoff bubble, not good enough to be a true contender.

Now he has to re-sign Barzal - that should be interesting.

Not counting the brief time with the Leaf rebuild, Lou used to be a much more dynamic and imaginative GM who built deep farm teams and swung for the fences. But since the Kovalchuk deal in New Jersey he's kind of plodded along building no name blue collar teams for the most part with varied success.

 

[LeafsNation75]

IIRC Lou has barely made any moves to improve the Isles offense. Signing Varlamov was the big thing but beyond that nothing else. Up until the trade for Andy Green last week, the last trade Lou made was for Matt Martin.

I'm not entirely sure Lou would have gone for moves like the Muzzin deal, or Zaitsev trade, etc.

Basically set the team up to have a high floor, but a low ceiling. Good enough to be on the playoff bubble, not good enough to be a true contender.

Now he has to re-sign Barzal - that should be interesting.

You know what Lou trading for Matt Martin and Andy Greene have in common, both of them previously played under Lamoriello when he was the GM in Toronto and New Jersey. He has a history of either signing or trading for former players.

Also at the 2018 trade deadline is when Lou didn't want to trade for Ryan McDonagh, where as Dubas made the trade for Jake Muzzin the very next season.

 

[Dekes For Days]

So when they play a mostly non contact forecheck, show an inability to typically stop a cycle just by playing the body against the boards, insist on playing a drop pass happy transition game and cycle through an endless cast of small players in bottom six roles and publicly make statements about speed and skill being the foremost ingredient they look for, that's not representative of the program they want to build?

The way you classify the way they play and their philosophy is not reality.

• They forecheck like pretty much everybody else

Some of our best forecheckers were brought in by Dubas (Engvall, Timashov, Tavares, Mikheyev, Clifford).

• They struggle with stopping the cycle, just like pretty much everybody else

The two best defenseman on the team at this were brought in by Dubas (Muzzin, Ceci).

• The only time they really employ the drop pass is on the PP, and while I personally hate it, it is extremely common for teams to do

Dubas acquisitions probably do this the least on the team, aside from maybe Barrie. They did this before Dubas was GM.

• Leafs have plenty of bigger players in bottom 6 roles

Engvall, Gauthier, Clifford (Dubas acquisition). Also, other smaller bottom-6 Dubas acquisitions like Spezza have massively outplayed their contracts, brought leadership, and done well, so not sure how you can complain just because they don't fit your personal ideal player type

• They haven't publicly said they only look for speed and skill

The fact that we do not sacrifice skill for slow, ineffective face punchers and possession black holes is hugely positive. When there are opportunities to acquire a less skilled but still quality player that maintains possession and brings beneficial elements, Dubas has pulled the trigger.
-Turned small bottom-6 forward Trevor Moore into a bigger bottom-6 forward in Clifford
-Turned smaller defenseman in Zaitsev into bigger defenseman in Ceci
-Turned smaller prospects Grundstrom and Durzi into bigger defenseman Muzzin

What we need are the various other support roles that will allow them to play like the Pittsburgh shutout win the majority of the time.

What most allowed them to play like the Pittsburgh game is not having their goalie let in one of the first shots of the game, forcing them endlessly into a chase mentality against a clogged neutral zone.

 

[daveleaf]

The Clifford move was reactionary. He made, Dubas made, the team much less gritty removing Hainsey, Brown and Kadri, now he is chasing making them more gritty. Campbell is reactionary as well after mishandling the back up last two years. Muzzin was a good move but at the time everyone knew we needed a right D, that being said Muzzin has been a nice addition. Kadri deal is atrocious, I don't want to hear one thing we got value. When I read that I just think the IQ of the individual is non existent. I don't mind Keefe, I was fine with Babs until I heard he made Mariner call out his team mates on who he believed was not working hard enough. Douchy move and he deserved to loose his job. That being said, we owe Babs a ton of credit for getting this team going a couple of years ago and in the right direction. He gave us some respectability.

Dubas has made some decent moves albeit he has made them to keep the team from spiraling instead of putting them in a position to succeed.

Going on with what Lou would do is pure speculation because it would never happen. We should thank him for giving this franchise some respect again and grooming both Dubas and Hunter.

I will go on to say that this team is built wrong and it has been getting more wrong each year under Dubas, the record is indication. This D core is simply not better than with Gardiner and Zaitsev back there. We needed some veteran leadership and he should have kept Hainsey.

If we do miss the playoffs and our first rounder becomes a lottery than that is a major gaffe in the best you could do was pkg that with Marleau to get rid of him.

 

[Jeffrey Pedler]

The Clifford move was reactionary. He made, Dubas made, the team much less gritty removing Hainsey, Brown and Kadri, now he is chasing making them more gritty. Campbell is reactionary as well after mishandling the back up last two years. Muzzin was a good move but at the time everyone knew we needed a right D, that being said Muzzin has been a nice addition. Kadri deal is atrocious, I don't want to hear one thing we got value. When I read that I just think the IQ of the individual is non existent. I don't mind Keefe, I was fine with Babs until I heard he made Mariner call out his team mates on who he believed was not working hard enough. Douchy move and he deserved to loose his job. That being said, we owe Babs a ton of credit for getting this team going a couple of years ago and in the right direction. He gave us some respectability.

Dubas has made some decent moves albeit he has made them to keep the team from spiraling instead of putting them in a position to succeed.

Going on with what Lou would do is pure speculation because it would never happen. We should thank him for giving this franchise some respect again and grooming both Dubas and Hunter.

I will go on to say that this team is built wrong and it has been getting more wrong each year under Dubas, the record is indication. This D core is simply not better than with Gardiner and Zaitsev back there. We needed some veteran leadership and he should have kept Hainsey.

If we do miss the playoffs and our first rounder becomes a lottery than that is a major gaffe in the best you could do was pkg that with Marleau to get rid of him.

We have enough veteran leadership on the blueline with Rielly, Muzzin, Ceci and Barrie. Giving Hainsey a contract like Ottawa did at his age, would have done nothing to help the Leafs.

If the Leafs want a younger stay at home defenseman to play with Rielly, then they will find it in free agency or in a trade. Hainsey wasn't the answer.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

The Clifford move was reactionary. He made, Dubas made, the team much less gritty removing Hainsey, Brown and Kadri, now he is chasing making them more gritty. Campbell is reactionary as well after mishandling the back up last two years. Muzzin was a good move but at the time everyone knew we needed a right D, that being said Muzzin has been a nice addition. Kadri deal is atrocious, I don't want to hear one thing we got value. When I read that I just think the IQ of the individual is non existent. I don't mind Keefe, I was fine with Babs until I heard he made Mariner call out his team mates on who he believed was not working hard enough. Douchy move and he deserved to loose his job. That being said, we owe Babs a ton of credit for getting this team going a couple of years ago and in the right direction. He gave us some respectability.

Dubas has made some decent moves albeit he has made them to keep the team from spiraling instead of putting them in a position to succeed.

Going on with what Lou would do is pure speculation because it would never happen. We should thank him for giving this franchise some respect again and grooming both Dubas and Hunter.

I will go on to say that this team is built wrong and it has been getting more wrong each year under Dubas, the record is indication. This D core is simply not better than with Gardiner and Zaitsev back there. We needed some veteran leadership and he should have kept Hainsey.

If we do miss the playoffs and our first rounder becomes a lottery than that is a major gaffe in the best you could do was pkg that with Marleau to get rid of him.

Imagine being this miserable watching your favorite team. Must be horrible.

 

[Luminiferous]

Imagine being this miserable watching your favorite team. Must be horrible.

Doesn't seem miserable to me. Judgement call.

 

[Goleafsgo95]

We let Lou go too soon.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

I have actually been very curious on how Lou is going to handle differently when signing our Big 3.

Lou gave Brock Nelson a 6M AAV after hitting the 50 pt mark for the first time in 6 seasons but a lot of posters on here whined about Nylander's 6.9 AAV given out by Dubas after putting up back to back 60 pt seasons as a 20-21 year old in his first 2 seasons. So I don't see how he would have handled the Marner and Nylander contracts much differently.

I don't understand the hate on Dubas' contracts while people thinking Lou was this supposed hard assed GM who can't be negotiated with. Lou has shown he gives out some terrible contracts like Marleau, Zaitsev. For example, Lou gave Leo Komarov a 3M AAV at 32 years old who is currently on pace for 27 pts in an 82 game season. While Kapanen was given a contract by Dubas and has a 3.2 AAV at 10 years younger and is on pace for 44 pts.

I would rather be overpaying a star like Marner by 1M than be overpaying grinders , complimentary and depth players. In the Marner situation I didn't like that he got 2M more than Aho or 1.4M more than Rantanen but I was more mad at Marner for not being willing to budge or listen to comparables. But as far as I'm concerned as long as he keeps putting up 90+ pt seasons, he is getting fair value.

Lou did a lot of great things but he also made a lot of mistakes as well. There is no such thing as a perfect GM that gets it right every time. You can look at every GM with hindsight and find faults just like people are with Dubas.

 

[The Shrike]

We let Lou go too soon.

They were pretty clear from the start that Lou was going to be GM for a few years, with Kyle under him learning the ropes, then Kyle would take over the GM job with Lou staying on for a while as a senior advisor. When the time for the transition came Lou obviously still had the itch to be the top dog, so he moved on. It was time though, otherwise they would have lost Dubas to one of many interested teams.

 

[Blowfish]

So 50% still believe in Dubas...yikes!

 

[Goleafsgo95]

They were pretty clear from the start that Lou was going to be GM for a few years, with Kyle under him learning the ropes, then Kyle would take over the GM job with Lou staying on for a while as a senior advisor. When the time for the transition came Lou obviously still had the itch to be the top dog, so he moved on. It was time though, otherwise they would have lost Dubas to one of many interested teams.

Yes. And I disagree with how they handled it. Lou knows how to build a winning team and has done so with much less talent than the Leafs. He would not have overpaid everyone and would have found a better recipe for success. I like Dubas but Toronto is not a good place for a rookie GM. Lou deserved to keep the GM job with what he had done and once he actually overstayed his welcome I am sure we could have found a suitable replacement.

 

[Stephen]

I think we needed the architect Lou circa 1988-2004, not the Lou that trades prime draft picks every year for Brian Boyle, Tomas Plekanec and Andy Greene or signs washed up veterans to huge contracts like he did with Marleau and in New Jersey.

Especially with the Islanders, he seems to be building a defensively sound, coachable but mediocre skill group.

 

[Stamkos4life]

So 50% still believe in Dubas...yikes!

Even if we miss the playoffs the KD defenders will still sing his praises.

Its mind boggling.

 

[Stamkos4life]

Imagine being this miserable watching your favorite team. Must be horrible.

Meh I call it realistic.

The fans who keep plugging their ears and saying that KD is doing a swell job (despite the results) are in a much more horrible position.

 

[Vinsanity89]

Pretty simple. Generally boomers like Lou and younger folk like Dubas.

 

[justafan22]

Lou was good at tearing stuff down, not so much at building it up.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I don't mind Duby for the most part. The thing I don't like about him is publicly saying he is at fault on something after the fact and then doing it again and again. The back-up is a prime example. He knew Hutch was not an NHL back-up...yet he went with him instead of going after Campell a few months ago. When he said that the deal just wasn't there a few months ago...he really is being cute with his wording. What he really meant was "We offered Moore and a 2nd and they wanted an extra 3rd that we were not willing to add until we were desperate." So in effect he might have cost us valuable points from the lack of an NHL back-up because of an extra 3rd rounder. That kind of stuff...the doubling down instead of admitting you made a mistake is his biggest flaw IMO. You needed a back-up ...the whole league knew this...you waited until it was almost too late...that is a huge mistake.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The back-up is a prime example. He knew Hutch was not an NHL back-up...yet he went with him instead of going after Campell a few months ago.

1. Hutchinson was decent for us in 2018-2019. Everybody seems to forget this.
2. Reports are the Campbell deal had been discussed for a while. You can't force somebody to trade. Most teams don't like selling off, especially players with multiple years left, before the new year.

 

[LeafsNation75]

They were pretty clear from the start that Lou was going to be GM for a few years, with Kyle under him learning the ropes, then Kyle would take over the GM job with Lou staying on for a while as a senior advisor. When the time for the transition came Lou obviously still had the itch to be the top dog, so he moved on. It was time though, otherwise they would have lost Dubas to one of many interested teams.

Look at when Lou was hired by the Islanders, it was just as their President of Hockey Operations. Around 1 - 2 weeks later is when he fired Garth Snow and added became their General Manager. He wanted 100% complete control.

 

[Maple Leaf]

I would hire Ujiri as special advisor
Better than Dubas