Hearing for Torres on Stoll hit (Thurs 9am PT, NYC; w/DW); out for rest of WCSF

[AnderFunk]

Stoll's head turns sharply and it's the first thing to turn. Head/jaw/face rotates quickly to the left, then the rest of the body follows. If it was pure shoulder-shoulder, his face would have stayed mostly in line with his torso, and any head movement would have come as an after effect of the body collision.

Stoll's head turns first, THEN his skate lifts off the ice. Head goes first. It snaps 90* to the left in the same time and direction as Torres shoulder.

Not to get into too much of a physics argument, but if Stoll is getting hit from the right and not head on doesn't it make sense that his head would snap to the left?

I still see shoulder absorb hit first then head snap, although it all happens so fast it's hard to tell.

 

[ChompChomp]

As I told a buddy of mine, hopefully DW made his case that the head was not targeted, and thus, there was no infraction of 48.1.

And I think they should go with one game suspension to appease the people calling for his head, no pun intended. Anything longer OR shorter will have lots of people crying bloody murder, even though I still think technically it should be zero because the check did not violate Rule 48.1.

 

[Led Zappa]

As I told a buddy of mine, hopefully DW made his case that the head was not targeted, and thus, there was no infraction of 48.1.

And I think they should go with one game suspension to appease the people calling for his head, no pun intended. Anything longer OR shorter will have lots of people crying bloody murder, even though I still think technically it should be zero because the check did not violate Rule 48.1.

I could handle that and just to be clear, I've been saying "should" not "will". This is the NHL after all.

 

[SJGoalie32]

This is my take on the hit as well. Not sure what the league expects him to do in that situation to prevent this, other than just stop hitting altogether.

Hit the shoulder. If he can't do that, then he shouldn't deliever the hit. Similar to a many other penalties.

You're allowed to check a guy in the shoulder. You are not allowed to cross-check a guy in the back. If you can hit a guy in the shoulder, hit him. If his back is turned and you can't hit anything but the numbers on his back, don't hit him. If you are unsure or incapable of controlling whether or not you'll be able to avoid hitting a guy in the back, then the onus is on the you the hitter not to deliver the hit (ease up on the contact, back off and play more positionally, etc.)....not to just throw the hit anyway and make the hittee pay the medical price for your wrong guess.

You're allowed to hit a guy in the torso. You are not allowed to hit a guy in his knee. If you can deliver a clean torso hit, hit him. If the only way you can make contact with the player is by sticking out your leg and making contact with his knee, you have to let him go. If the hitter is going to put his desire to hit a player over his responsibility to control whether or nor he hits him cleanly and legally, that's on the hitter.

You're allowed to skate in front of the crease. You are not allowed to skate into the goaltender. If you are incapable of or unsure of whether or not you will be able to skate to a point on the far side of the crease without running through the goaltender, then the onus is on the skater not to skate there or to take a different route that better avoids the goaltender. If you choose to skate there anyway and your lack of care/control/judgment causes you to make contact with the goaltender, you bear the responsibility for that.

 

[Led Zappa]

@brodiebrazilCSN 28 secs
Update on Torres hearing: still in progress. Seems logistically impossible he could even make it back to LA tonight.

Wow...

 

[PlaywithGutz*]

Not to get into too much of a physics argument, but if Stoll is getting hit from the right and not head on doesn't it make sense that his head would snap to the left?

I still see shoulder absorb hit first then head snap, although it all happens so fast it's hard to tell.

his head would snap to the right b/c the impact to the shoulder is generating momentum of his body to the left. His head would then snap to the right as it was not a point of impact. simple physics...

If his head was the point of impact his head would snap left and he would have went arse of air cleaner like Wingels did when Penner flattened him with his dirty hit.

 

[Alwalys]

Hit the shoulder. If he can't do that, then he shouldn't deliever the hit. Similar to a many other penalties.

You're allowed to check a guy in the shoulder. You are not allowed to cross-check a guy in the back. If you can hit a guy in the shoulder, hit him. If his back is turned and you can't hit anything but the numbers on his back, don't hit him. If you are unsure or incapable of controlling whether or not you'll be able to avoid hitting a guy in the back, then the onus is on the you the hitter not to deliver the hit (ease up on the contact, back off and play more positionally, etc.)....not to just throw the hit anyway and make the hittee pay the medical price for your wrong guess.

You're allowed to hit a guy in the torso. You are not allowed to hit a guy in his knee. If you can deliver a clean torso hit, hit him. If the only way you can make contact with the player is by sticking out your leg and making contact with his knee, you have to let him go. If the hitter is going to put his desire to hit a player over his responsibility to control whether or nor he hits him cleanly and legally, that's on the hitter.

You're allowed to skate in front of the crease. You are not allowed to skate into the goaltender. If you are incapable of or unsure of whether or not you will be able to skate to a point on the far side of the crease without running through the goaltender, then the onus is on the skater not to skate there or to take a different route that better avoids the goaltender. If you choose to skate there anyway and your lack of care/control/judgment causes you to make contact with the goaltender, you bear the responsibility for that.

Yeah of course, it's so clear. And the refs always get everything right. Or if not, the league will look at everything after the fact and get it right.

Right?
You have the most incredible anti-Raffi bias.

"The head was the first thing to turn?" What, as opposed to his shoulder "turning"? Oh what, shoulders can't do that?

 

[dwood16]

It is BEYOND OBVIOUS that he was trying to stay low and make a CLEAN hockey hit! If he hit his head it was only because it was UNAVOIDABLE!!! For ****s sake what is wrong with the NHL! I am done with this league.

 

[SpaceCoastShark]

@brodiebrazilCSN 28 secs
Update on Torres hearing: still in progress. Seems logistically impossible he could even make it back to LA tonight.

Wow...

Torres has Shannahan pinned to the wall, and DW is tickling him.

 

[do0glas]

its probably just shanny trying to avoid eye contact with torres.

 

[Tkachuk4MVP]

If he didn't target the head he cannot be suspended according to the rule I posted earlier. I agree he didn't target it. But, if the league disagrees and says he targeted it then it has to be more. That's why I say it will be a sham unless he gets one or the other.

@andystrickland12 mins
Majority of Hockey people I talked to say Torres isn't worthy of suspension

Gotcha. I feel like that the second point of that rule (principal point of contact is the head) is the one that the league really bases its decisions on though, since the idea of targeting/intent is almost completely subjective and a player would never admit that he targeted the head. Consequently I don't think the targeting aspect will make or break this decision.

 

[Knave]

Hit the shoulder. If he can't do that, then he shouldn't deliever the hit. Similar to a many other penalties.

Except it's not that simple. You can see in video replay Stoll does significantly change body position after Torres is committed. This all happens in less than 2 seconds.

A player can make significant or even 'mostly' contact with the head and it is not a suspendable play if -

The head was not originally targeted (pretty clear it isn't as we don't see any major extension of either arm or a jumping motion)... and Stoll significantly changed his positioning.

It's not at all similar to other penalties. You'll notice boarding isn't called every time someone is hit in the numbers. Why? The player being hit changed their position after the opposing player committed to the hit.

 

[Alwalys]

Gotcha. I feel like that the second point of that rule (principal point of contact is the head) is the one that the league really bases its decisions on though, since the idea of targeting/intent is almost completely subjective and a player would never admit that he targeted the head. Consequently I don't think the targeting aspect will make or break this decision.

Targeting can be eliminated by video evidence. If the hit is thrown toward somewhere other than the head, as this one clearly was by video, then it's not possible to say the head was targeted.

You are right that it may not make or break this decision, but it should.

 

[vilpertti]

Here's the Torres hit:

...

Stoll's head turns first, THEN his skate lifts off the ice. Head goes first. It snaps 90* to the left in the same time and direction as Torres shoulder.

Collisions of somewhat elastic bodies is not the simplest of things to understand with newtonian physics. What I would question is, how can someone have principal contact with his nameplate and the back of his helmet. The principal contact is still with torsos, which are somewhat elastic while the back of a helmet is not. While the torsos absorb the impact, the upper body continues to move and Stoll's jaw absorbs some energy from the helmet/nameplate.

This is how I see it, and how I would argue the case.

 

[AnderFunk]

Physics wise I am not seeing what part of Torres people think is hitting Stoll's head. His shoulder?

 

[seamore]

over now

Rumor: meeting is now over.

https://twitter.com/helenenothelen/status/335090958679031808

 

[Levie]

If it's taken this long you can kiss the Sharks' and Torres' season goodbye.

Can Doug Wilson play forward?

 

[Sleepy]

Hit the shoulder. If he can't do that, then he shouldn't deliever the hit. Similar to a many other penalties.

You're allowed to check a guy in the shoulder. You are not allowed to cross-check a guy in the back. If you can hit a guy in the shoulder, hit him. If his back is turned and you can't hit anything but the numbers on his back, don't hit him. If you are unsure or incapable of controlling whether or not you'll be able to avoid hitting a guy in the back, then the onus is on the you the hitter not to deliver the hit (ease up on the contact, back off and play more positionally, etc.)....not to just throw the hit anyway and make the hittee pay the medical price for your wrong guess.

You're allowed to hit a guy in the torso. You are not allowed to hit a guy in his knee. If you can deliver a clean torso hit, hit him. If the only way you can make contact with the player is by sticking out your leg and making contact with his knee, you have to let him go. If the hitter is going to put his desire to hit a player over his responsibility to control whether or nor he hits him cleanly and legally, that's on the hitter.

You're allowed to skate in front of the crease. You are not allowed to skate into the goaltender. If you are incapable of or unsure of whether or not you will be able to skate to a point on the far side of the crease without running through the goaltender, then the onus is on the skater not to skate there or to take a different route that better avoids the goaltender. If you choose to skate there anyway and your lack of care/control/judgment causes you to make contact with the goaltender, you bear the responsibility for that.

The examples you gave are perfect examples to disprove your original point. In both of those situations, there is judgement involved. I believe your interpretation of the rules is a black/white one similar to over-the-glass delay of game. In reality judgement is used in the examples you gave by officials on-ice and supplemental discipline. Many, many times players skate into goalies and are not called for a penalty, and rightfully so.

Secondly, he did he the shoulder.

 

[Alwalys]

Physics wise I am not seeing what part of Torres people think is hitting Stoll's head. His shoulder?

His back/back of his helmet. No, you cannot logically target a head with those parts of the body.

 

[Led Zappa]

@KKurzCSN 29 secs
The Raffi Torres hearing is "just finishing up," in New York I'm told.

 

[sjshrky27]

Kurz: Torres hearing finishing up...

 

[Kitten Mittons]

Torres has Shannahan pinned to the wall, and DW is tickling him.

They're playing bad cop bad cop

 

[Led Zappa]

@helenenothelen 16 secs
Verdict on Torres hearing won't be announced til later today. Would guess before Sharks-Kings game.

 

[Alwalys]

@helenenothelen 16 secs
Verdict on Torres hearing won't be announced til later today. Would guess before Sharks-Kings game.

What the ****???

edit: Christ it means they have to edit the video.

 

[murdock1116]

What the F happened to this league?!? Players NEED to keep their heads up! Everything is a suspension now or considered a "head shot."

Remember this guy?! Every single one of these hits would be suspended today by these standards! (And notice how the other teams never go after him after the play either, even the players back then knew that hitting was a part of the game and you didn't need to goon it up after every single hit)