Has Messi surpassed Gretzky/Jordan and others as the GOAT for all sports?

[Dr Beinfest]

This is a horrible post.

First of all, you took @WarriorofTime's stated 17% (or whatever it was) of non-Canadians in 1979-80, and magically transformed it to 10%, disingenuously, thereby undermining any point you were trying to make.

Second, "almost exclusively" is a pointless and vague term. The word "exclusively" should be used when the condition is exclusive---which non-Canadian hockey players during Gretzky's NHL career most definitely were not. It's like trying to argue that "virtually 100%" is the same as "80%".

Third, you (like @WarriorofTime) are apparently fixated on Gretzky's teenage / rookie season as representing "Gretzky's day", which is utter nonsense. Since semantics is a big issue between the three of us, what did @WarriorofTime mean exactly (as you are fixated on defending his post) by "Gretzky's day"? Gretzky played in the NHL from 1979 (four years after Henri Richard's last game) until 1999 (five years before Ovechkin was drafted). This is a huge span of time, during which the NHL underwent a few seismic shifts. As I lack the paid website access to calculate nationalities of all NHL players by season, I simply went down the roster of Wayne Gretzky's own NHL clubs in various seasons. This is the result:
1981 = 18% of roster was non-Canadian
1984 = 27% of roster was non-Canadian
1987 = 23% of roster was non-Canadian
1991 = 31% of roster was non-Canadian
1994 = 29% of roster was non-Canadian
1997 = 41% of roster was non-Canadian
Now, of course these are Gretzky's own teams, and I don't know how that would translate across all franchises through those years---obviously, similarly lower numbers on average in the very early-80s and higher on average by the late-90s---but as it spans three franchises, it probably gives us a pretty good idea.

Fourth, "almost exclusively Canadian" regarding Gretzky's salad years (let's say 1980 to 1991 as those are his prime seasons) is dismissing a massive number of significant NHL players to the forgotten dustbin of history, which no fan of hockey should be okay with. In the NHL alone, up to 1991 or so, here are some of the non-Canadian players that Gretzky dominated:
Vaclav Nedomansky
Peter Stastny
Anton Stastny
Marian Stastny
Rick Lanz
Kent Nilsson
Peter Ihnacak
Petr Klima
Michal Pivonka
David Volek
Vladimir Ruzicka
Petr Nedved
Robert Reichel
Frantisek Musil
Ivan Boldirev
Peter Bondra
Stefan Persson
Thomas Gradin
Kent-Erik Andersson
Mats Naslund
Bengt-Ake Gustafsson
Patrick Sundstrom
Anders Kallur
Borje Salming
Jorgen Pettersson
Tomas Jonsson
Hakan Loob
Jan Erixson
Ulf Samuelsson
Michael Thelven
Kjell Dahlin
Frederik Olausson
Calle Johansson
Willy Lindstrom
Anders Hedberg
Miroslav Frycer
Tomas Jonsson
Tomas Sandstrom
Petri Skriko
Pelle Eklund
Pelle Lindberg
Jari Kurri
Jyrki Lumme
Teppo Numminen
Ilkka Sinisalo
Risto Siltanen
Matti Hagman
Kari Eloranta
Esa Tikkanen
Reijo Ruotsalainen
Mikko Makela
Kari Takko
Christian Ruuttu
Dmitri Kristich
Uwe Krupp
Mark Howe
Joe Mullen
Brian Mullen
Tony Granato
Ed Olczyk
Tom Barrasso
Rod Langway
Brett Hull
Brian Leetch
Neal Broten
Aaron Broten
Chris Chelios
Bobby Carpenter
Phil Housley
Jeremy Roenick
Pat Lafontaine
Gary Suter
Craig Ludwig
Craig Janney
Reed Larson
Kevin Stevens
Jimmy Carson
Al Iafrate
Tom Kurvers
Darren Turcotte
Jeff Brown
Mike Ramsey

This is by no means an exhaustive list of non-Canadian players, and again it basically ignores anyone who entered the NHL in Gretzky's last eight seasons (during which he still won a scoring title and was a Hart runner-up twice, and well as having a 40-point playoff). These kind of memorably players should not be overlooked in a misguided attempt to pretend NHL hockey only became competitive when a few high-impact (mostly low-impact) Russians joined.

Fifth, if Gretzky in his prime had bombed-out at international hockey, you might at least have an argument (albeit a weak one) that his dominance is less impressive. But Gretzky participated at the 1978 world juniors, 1981 Canada Cup, 1982 world championships, 1984 Canada Cup, 1987 Canada Cup, and 1991 Canada Cup, and was the leading scorer at every single one.

This is a rather pathetic attempt to win an argument on the internet via death by a thousand words.

You dare say “17%, or whatever it was” as though you’re super relaxed snd chill with not arguing semantics, meanwhile you know that’s the exact value and you’re literally arguing semantics.

You also don’t seem to have grasped what 5-10% means in my post, so you’ve opted to twist it into a non sequitur (either that or just a generally dishonest post, who is being disingenuous?). I said 4 out of 5, and never did I say 10% in the way you’re suggesting. Read.

Third, sixth, ninth, whatever, “almost exclusively” is not meaningless and you’re once again attacking semantics to win an argument on the internet. It’s easily understood in this context.

Tenth, I’m not “fixated on defending” anyone’s post. You’re bringing this upon yourself.

Seventeenth, googling the number of Canadians by year doesn’t take paid access, and computing the Canadianness of one team is meaningless.

Twenty-fifth, who is being disingenuous? The guy trying to turn the early 80s into 1991 and 1997? The guy trying to make a long list of non-Canadian players over 10+ years (irrelevant time bounds to the point)? The guy who tries to list Brett Hull as a notable non-Canadian? If you want to argue what the original poster meant by “in Gretzky’s day” you can take that up with the original poster. Save me the character attack calling me “disingenuous” and start making better arguments. Oh, also, don’t enumerate your posts like you’re about to drop the mic and walk off, especially when your points aren’t very good.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Hard to believe so many people have Ali as a goat just because he had a huge mouth. He is a borderline top 5 boxer of all time. Please look into it instead of listening to his “I am the greatest” bullshit. He isn’t even the best heavyweight all time. It’s not a popularity contest.

You don't know boxing do you? Ali fought in the toughest era of hw boxing and beat everyone.

 

[sansabri]

Hard to believe so many people have Ali as a goat just because he had a huge mouth. He is a borderline top 5 boxer of all time. Please look into it instead of listening to his “I am the greatest” bullshit. He isn’t even the best heavyweight all time. It’s not a popularity contest.

guy beat both Joe Frasier and George Foreman. that big mouth is warranted

 

[tacogeoff]

I'm not much of a soccer fan but what is the case for Messi over Pele?

Im not much of a soccer fan either. Pele was a tremendous and legendary talent but maybe there was not as many individual awards and club tournaments back then to add to his accolades? or maybe they weren't tracked like they are today?

Check out how many championships Messi led his team too and how many individual awards he has received. I just googled this and damn this man is nothing but a winner.

Lionel Messi Stats, Goals, Records, Assists, Cups and more | FBref.com

Check out the latest domestic and international stats, match logs, goals, height, weight and more for Lionel Messi playing for FC Barcelona, Argentina men's national team and Paris Saint-Germain FC in the Champions League, La Liga and World Cup

fbref.com

 

[John Mandalorian]

Most of the world know who Messi is

I doubt many know who Gretzky is

A few more know who Jordan is but not as many as Messi

Apples and oranges. This is skewed by Messi being the only current player of the three. In the 90s, Jordan was one of the most recognizable people on earth.

 

[tacogeoff]

Apples and oranges. This is skewed by Messi being the only current player of the three. In the 90s, Jordan was one of the most recognizable people on earth.

I think Jordan still is very recognizable today and alot of it has to do with the enormous success of his Air Jordan brand which is still very very relevant today.

1984: Nike hoped for $3 million in Jordan sales over 4 years.
2022: Nike generates $3 million in Jordan sales every 5 hours.

i dont know how accurate that is but those are the numbers online ha.

 

[John Mandalorian]

I think Jordan still is very recognizable today and alot of it has to do with the enormous success of his Air Jordan brand which is still very very relevant today.

1984: Nike hoped for $3 million in Jordan sales over 4 years.
2022: Nike generates $3 million in Jordan sales every 5 hours.

i dont know how accurate that is but those are the numbers online ha.

Not saying this is wrong but there's more to it than that. He influenced an explosion in the popularity of basketball globally. Partly it was the dream team. But around this time, other places in the world were starting to have more access to global sports through cable television.

Also, the shoes are partly popular because of how he played. You make it sound like people aren't aware of Jordan then learn about him because of shoes.

 

[tacogeoff]

Not saying this is wrong but there's more to it than that. He influenced an explosion in the popularity of basketball globally. Partly it was the dream team. But around this time, other places in the world were starting to have more access to global sports through cable television.

Also, the shoes are partly popular because of how he played. You make it sound like people aren't aware of Jordan then learn about him because of shoes.

no no not at all. That is not what i meant. Im was alluding to he is still as relevant now as he was in the 90s and he is still one of the most recognizable people on earth.

I'm just saying his legacy is being carried on and kept very relevant by the AIr Jordan brand. They reach huge markets that include alot of people that just buy the shoes for everyday wear or collections for people that don't play the sport or follow it but know the Jordan name. Some one like Gretzky doesn't really have a market reach to keep him relative among the general public. Unless you drink his wine or beer i guess.

 

[Mitch nylander]

Not to be a Debbie Downer, but the items I highlighted are strictly popularity contests.

The guy has done a lot over his career, and he is arguably the greatest player of all time, so there is no need to fluff his resume.

There is absolutely no reason for Messi winning a Ballon D'Or this year, and there was no justifiable reason for him winning the golden ball at the world cup.
He had 2 great games, but he took 5 penalties in 7 games and scored 6 goals (only 2 of which were from the run of play).

I'm not a fan of Mbappe, but he was horribly screwed over on the golden ball. There's no question at all about that being an absolute farce. He scored a Hat Trick in the World Cup Final for goodness sake, and of his 8 total goals, 2 were from the spot.

Thomas Muller was screwed out of the golden ball in 2014 as well. That was a hell of a farce.



I know people like the moniker of Penaldo, but my goodness, Messi seems to score an inordinate amount of goals from 11 yards in international tournaments.


7 out of 24 of his international tournament goals (about 29%) from the spot.

Ronaldo scored 6 of his 21 international tournament goals (about 28%) from the spot.


Personally, I believe Messi is the greater player of the 2, but when you compare the stats between Messi and Ronaldo from when they were both in La Liga together, it's not hard to make the argument for either player.

Year	Ronaldo League Games	League Goals	European Games	European Goals	Messi League Games	League Goals	European Games	European Goals
2009/10	29	26	6	7	35	34	11	8
2010/11	34	40	12	6	33	31	13	12
2011/12	38	46	10	10	37	50	11	14
2012/13	34	34	12	12	32	46	11	8
2013/14	30	31	11	17	31	28	7	8
2014/15	35	48	12	10	38	43	13	10
2015/16	36	35	12	16	33	26	7	6
2016/17	29	25	13	12	34	37	9	11
2017/18	27	26	13	15	36	34	10	6

And even later, going to an abysmal Juventus team:

Year	Ronaldo League Games	League Goals	European Games	European Goals	Messi League Games	League Goals	European Games	European Goals
2018/19	31	21	9	6	34	36	10	12
2019/20	33	31	8	4	33	25	8	3
2020/21	33	29	6	4	35	30	6	5
2021/22	31	18	7	6	26	6	7	5
2022/23	10	1	6	2	13	7	5	4

Funnier even, is that internationally, Messi's record for goal scoring is much more aligned with that which is said about Ronaldo - that he feeds on lesser competition and friendlies.

In fact, Ronaldo has as many goals for Portugal, in actual competitive games, as Messi has in total.

	Competitive Games	Goals	Friendly Games	Goals	Total Games	Total Goals
Messi	121	54	51	44	172	98
Ronaldo	144	98	52	20	196	118

While you did put some thought into this post, and I appreciate you bringing in statistics there are several things I disagree with (see bolded):

Copa America Best Player - This is hardly a popularity contest and both times Messi deserved it.

- 2015: Arguable yes, Eduard Vargas was the top scorer. But messi averaged the best rating per match, most dribbles, most shots, 2nd most assists...​

- 2021: Messi had the most goals, most assists, most key passes, most shots on target most goal creating actions and most dribbles. He was head and shoulders the best player.​

World Cup Ballon D'Or - Saying that Messi won these awards undeservedly, is the equivalent of saying Kessel deserved the Conn Smythe over Crosby, or Matthews didn't deserve the hart. Both times he had an excellent performance and it could have gone either way.

-2014: Messi single-handedly carried a poor Argentina team to the final. I think there are arguments for both muller and Messi. Muller led in G+A but his team scored significantly more. Messi had a higher involvement in his teams goals at (62.5%), and Muller at (50%). To say it was undeserved is a poor statement.​

-2022: While Messi scored a few penalties, he finished 2nd in goals. He had the most assists (more than Mbappe), they tied for most g+a. He led the tourney in expected goals. He had the most shots, most key passes, most dribbles, 2nd most expected assists. While Mbappe scored more goals, I think there is an obvious argument for Messi being more influential.....​

Most Dribbles- How is this a popularity contest? Would we say hits don't matter in hockey? How about rebounds in basketball?

-These stats are not to fluff Messi's record, they are more so to showcase that he is the best dribbler.​

Sure you have an argument, that some of the others are fluff, but they just add to Messi's resume.

-----

Now let's talk about comparing Messi to Ronaldo.

I think Ronaldo is a slightly better goal scorer, but Messi is clearly a more well rounded player.

Messi vs Ronaldo in Laliga
-Messi 472 goals to Ronaldo's 450
-Messi had 177 assists to Ronaldo's 120
-Messi won laliga best player 6 times to Ronaldo's 1.
-Messi won the Pichichi 5x, Ronaldo 3x
Sure Ronaldo has a better champions league record, but you left out Copa del Rey stats and Super Copa.
-Messi had 39 goals in Copa del Rey to Ronaldo's 22
-Messi had 27 assists vs Ronaldo's 3
-Messi has incomparably better stats in Super copa.
-Average Match Rating: Messi had 8.67, Ronaldo had 7.94.
-Key Passes: Messi had 683, Ronaldo had 509
-Successful Dribbles: Messi had 1375, Ronaldo had 523.

If we take out penalties like you suggested for the World Cup, Ronaldo's stats look a lot worse.

Comparing Messi to Ronaldo is like comparing Mcdavid to Matthews. While Ronaldo is arguably a better scorer, Messi is a more complete player as he's a better passer, playmaker, dribbler and is more influential to his team.

 

[Crow]

You don't know boxing do you? Ali fought in the toughest era of hw boxing and beat everyone.

I boxed for 20 years and have been a student of boxing history longer than that. While I agree with you, that doesn’t make him the goat. Others have accolades that outshine his. Notably he has nothing on Sugar Ray or Joe Louis.

 

[TOGuy14]

To me the GOAT debate has to involve the closeness of competition.

Messi has a lot of CURRENT players that are viewed as equals or peers (ie Ronaldo) with very little difference. There is a good chance that someone will eclipse Messi's numbers in 10-15 years while Gretzky has withstood the test of time and looks completely uncatchable in many aspects of his records.

 

[Dubi Doo]

I always love how passionate people get over a completely unanswerable question. Trying to compare players from different sports is sort of silly

Fun debate, though!

But yeah- doesn't make any sense to get worked up over it.

 

[Xspyrit]

 

[WarriorOfGandhi]

Fun debate, though!

But yeah- doesn't make any sense to get worked up over it.

I really don't follow any sports other than hockey so I enjoy these threads -- it's interesting to see what people are (or aren't) passionate about in their fandom, especially the ones who follow more niche sports

 

[WarriorofTime]

Ali is not generally regarded as the greatest pound for pound fighter of all time, but many consider him the greatest Heavyweight of all time considering how strong the era was.

 

[JoVel]

I don't see how you don't take sport popularity into heavy consideration here. It's probably easier to be a top 5 player in hockey than top 50 player in soccer.

 

[Rengorlex]

I don't see how you don't take sport popularity into heavy consideration here. It's probably easier to be a top 5 player in hockey than top 50 player in soccer.

Yeah. Look at Sweden or Russia for example. Football and hockey are both big in those countries, though soccer clearly more popular. Those countries have produced dozens of NHL superstars. How many football superstars have come from those countries? For sure less than one per ten superstars in hockey.

Being the best hockey player of all time is much more comparable to being, say, the best football player from Belgium of all time than it is to being the best of all time in all countries. The level of competition is absolutely ridiculously beyond hockey.

 

[DFF]

Apples and oranges. This is skewed by Messi being the only current player of the three. In the 90s, Jordan was one of the most recognizable people on earth.

Jordan is well known. Soccer is just a bigger sports. I don’t think the name Messi will be forgotten 30 yrs from now

 

[Pistol Petey]

This is a pure numbers game:
"How many hockey players are there in the world?

1.64 million people in the world play organized hockey."

And also

"How Many Soccer Players are There in the World? The estimated total of soccer players in the world is 275 million"

Sure, in theory Gretzky might be the greatest athlete of all time, but it's just way easier to be the best in a lot smaller sport than Soccer. So to me it's absolutely ridicilous to assume Gretzky would be the GOAT over someone like Messi for example.

 

[John Mandalorian]

Jordan is well known. Soccer is just a bigger sports. I don’t think the name Messi will be forgotten 30 yrs from now

Who said Messi will be forgotten in 30 years? Stop making stuff up. That's cheap tactic.

People need to stop comparing Messis popularity now, while he's still playing, to players who've been retired for decades.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I boxed for 20 years and have been a student of boxing history longer than that. While I agree with you, that doesn’t make him the goat. Others have accolades that outshine his. Notably he has nothing on Sugar Ray or Joe Louis.

I won't get into Robinson different weight class etc. But what does louis have over Ali? It certainly wasent skill or quality of opponents

 

[DFF]

Who said Messi will be forgotten in 30 years? Stop making stuff up. That's cheap tactic.

People need to stop comparing Messis popularity now, while he's still playing, to players who've been retired for decades.

People need to stop comparing Messis popularity now, while he's still playing, to players who've been retired for decades.

it’s the comparison between soccer players vs hockey or even basketball players is the problem

It’s perfectly valid to make an assessment on Messi’s career vs past players but keep it to the same sports

 

[Alexandre Achutti]

Not necessarily, I think what we are saying is that the level of competition and sheer amount of people who play make it less likely that someone will be as dominant on a Gretzky-like level. Having a smaller gap in a sport like soccer is natural because its the sport everyone plays. Its not as simple as saying that the top footballer is the goat, but it does need to be taken into consideration because of how much more difficult it is to distance yourself from your peers when you have 50X the amount of competition. If we are to look at it form an alternative perspective - Gretzky dominated a sport in a small town, Messi dominated a sport in a mega city (to scale). Its not surprising that the small town had someone who was head and shoulders better than the rest, but in the city you likely had many players in that tier.

Its not just soccer and then hockey, either - there are multiple other sports that fall in between the two in popularity, but at the end of the day, the most popular sport is going to have a large advantage because of A - how popular it is, and B - how difficult it is to separate yourself from the others in the pack. Its not apples to apples. I would say if we are going to consider Gretzky, we would be better off choosing someone like Bolt who had both vast dominance over his peers as well as a global pool of athletes to compete against.

I understand your point of view, I think it's valid, but it's difficult to equalize everything, which is why the discussion of the GOAT of all sports does not have a clear answer.

About Gretzky and his era, I'm not an expert on hockey but it gives the impression that the arrival of many foreigners (you know, Europeans) in the NHL from the 90's onwards greatly increased the talent in the League.

Looking at how soccer and basketball were played in the 80's and what we have today, the gap doesn't seem to be as great as hockey in the 80's for what it is today.

Hockey seems to have evolved more, which I think is something that weighs heavily against Gretzky (in my opinion).

It's the same with Pelé.

They were great, without a doubt, but they played at a time when their sports seemed archaic and with less competition and level.

 

[kingpest19]

If we purely talk greatest athlete in my view, I know it's very controversial, but I'd go Lance Armstrong. I know he doped, but it was the norm in his era. Winning that many consecutive Tour de France (I think 6 or 7) is incredible. I think pro cycling is by far the hardest sport in the world. It's the only sport in which suffering is that prevalent on a day to day basis. So in my view he's the greatest athlete ever.

Eddie Merckx was a much better cyclist than Armstrong. 11 Grand Tours wins, one of only three guys to win all five Monuments and the only one to ever win them twice. Three World Championships, the hour record, won all but one of the major one day races and won world championships on the track as well.

He was so dominant he was asked not to race the 1973 TDF. That cost him a chance at being the only rider to ever win all three Grand Tours in the same year. He was head and shoulders above Armstrong

 

[Hockeyholic]

Now you understand how the rest of the world feels about the NHL and NFL

American football is the most popular sport in North America.