Has Messi surpassed Gretzky/Jordan and others as the GOAT for all sports?

[Machinehead]

Thanks for making my point. Messi walked into Barcelona at precisely the same time that Spain had an unprecedented run of players and had all of its international success. Spain dominated internationally to a greater extent than Barca did and that was a team that didn’t include Messi. Again he’s great but he’s no Jordan. It’s great that he finally won a World Cup but it doesn’t instantly make him better than other players. I personally prefer Maradona.

Your point was that only a handful of teams can actually win, as opposed to 90's NBA and 80's NHL which were *checks notes* just loaded with parity.

Messi and co. had to hold off probably the second best player ever to win anything he's won. Who did Gretzky and Jordan compete with of that caliber? Gretzky was already in LA by the time Mario and his Pens peaked.

The 1990 Oilers won a Cup without Gretzky. That team was just as stacked. Also, Gretzky and Jordan played for Canada and the US respectively, lap-the-field world #1's which both make Argentina look average by comparison.

I do think there's an argument to be made for any of the three but "it was easy for Messi" isn't the argument.

 

[Machinehead]

Maradona over Messi is laughable.

Maradona was a great footballer but he was more rock star than footballer.

His club career is nothing to write home about. He never won the European Cup or the Copa Libertadores. His GPG ratio is more on par with Mo Salah and Samuel Eto'o than Messi or Ronaldo.

His reputation is inflated by one World Cup which captured imagination, but there have been better World Cups, including Messi in 2022. In fact, Maradona wasn't even the top scorer at the 1986 World Cup. His performance is remembered because one goal is one of the best ever, I'll grant you that, and the other was literally cheating.

Maradona only had 34 goals for Argentina. Messi has 98.

There isn't an argument for Maradona.

 

[Shane Diesel]

Hockey is my favorite sport but you guys are funny

Let me know when hockey reaches anything closes to that

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Insecure

 

[J bo Jeans]

Obviously

Thanks for making my point. Messi walked into Barcelona at precisely the same time that Spain had an unprecedented run of players and had all of its international success. Spain dominated internationally to a greater extent than Barca did and that was a team that didn’t include Messi. Again he’s great but he’s no Jordan. It’s great that he finally won a World Cup but it doesn’t instantly make him better than other players. I personally prefer Maradona.

Youre right hes better than Jordan. Jordan only had to compete against Americans 6'2 and up. basketball has an insanely small talent pool when you factor in how the biggest determinant of an NBA player is their height and not skill or athleticism. You could be the greatest athlete in the world but if youre under 6ft good luck playing in the NBA.

Messi had to compete against the greatest talent pool ever. 50x as large as NHL and NBA COMBINED.

 

[dortt]

That's 3 baseball

LOL

Jordan did have that 1 year in the minors

 

[The Panther]

NHL hockey players in Gretzky's day solely came from Canada (more or less),

False.

I mean, if you ask 100 people from a country outside of Canada who the greatest athlete ever is, you would get 0 answers for Gretzky. In america you might get Brady, but outside of that nobody would say him. 90% of answers would be Messi,, Pele, Ronaldo, Bolt, Jordan, Ali, etc.

I think gretzky is further ahead of his competition than the others are, but at some point people have to know who you are to be considered the greatest athlete of all time. If literally less than 10% of the world's population have heard of you - it's really hard to make an argument that you are that.

I personally don't think how famous you are relates to how 'great' you are.

Far more people have heard of and read J.K. Rowling than Herman Melville, but it doesn't convince me she's greater.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

This narrative about 3 times world champion is purely your agenda. I keep talking about his 1958 and 1970 runs but it looks like you have nothing to say about. Why, I wonder...

Sure bud. And you definitely don't have an agenda with "barca haven't won UCL since 2011". Or "Messi is a 3x UCL winner". At least my "agenda" doesn't involve straight up lying about things.

 

[WarriorofTime]

False.

Not false. Here is the breakdown of NHL players by nationality in 1979-80 (Wayne Gretzky's rookie season)

Canada- 83.7 %
United States - 9.9 %
Sweden - 4.3 %
Finland - 0.8 %
Others - 1.3 %

Not included - the next best Hockey nation, Soviet Union along with the other eastern bloc

 

[Breakfast of Champs]

False.


I personally don't think how famous you are relates to how 'great' you are.

Far more people have heard of and read J.K. Rowling than Herman Melville, but it doesn't convince me she's greater.

I think it does, part of greatness and legacy are being well known. Others have said it many times too but the pool of athletes ice hockey has is a fraction of what Soccer/football has , Gretzky is easily the best hockey player ever, but when it comes to global athletics, he's not even spoken of outside of Canada , to a lesser extent USA, and in small circles in some European countries. If 90 percent of the world has never heard your name its tough to be considered the globe's greatest athlete of all time.

If we are talking sheer athleticism I would also add Usian bolt as he has Gretzky like dominance over his sport along with global recognition that rivals almost anyone

 

[sansabri]

Obviously

Youre right hes better than Jordan. Jordan only had to compete against Americans 6'2 and up. basketball has an insanely small talent pool when you factor in how the biggest determinant of an NBA player is their height and not skill or athleticism. You could be the greatest athlete in the world but if youre under 6ft good luck playing in the NBA.

Messi had to compete against the greatest talent pool ever. 50x as large as NHL and NBA COMBINED.

it's one thing to say that Basketball has a smaller talent pool than Football (which is true), but to proclaim that being tall is more important than being skilled/athletic in the NBA is pure bunk

 

[bambamcam4ever]

it's one thing to say that Basketball has a smaller talent pool than Football (which is true), but to proclaim that being tall is more important than being skilled/athletic in the NBA is pure bunk

Height is the most important skill in basketball. You can compensate for lacking it with athleticism, and skill less so, but extreme height is close to a golden ticket to being a professional basketball player.

 

[sansabri]

Height is the most important skill in basketball. You can compensate for lacking it with athleticism, and skill less so, but extreme height is close to a golden ticket to being a professional basketball player.

there's no lack of 6' 8''+ guys out there who have played ball. the vast majority of them can't even make it in the G league

 

[Breakfast of Champs]

there's no lack of 6' 8''+ guys out there who have played ball. the vast majority of them can't even make it in the G league

not trying to say its unfair or makes accomplishments any less impressive, you cold probably say the same thing about certain genetic factors in other sports, most people just won't have the genes to be a champion marathon runner, swimmer, sprinter, etc.

But when the average height is 6'7 to play in the world's top league, you have to admit being tall is one of, if not the absolute most important predetermining factor in success. You realize the global average for males is likely around 5'8? Even just 6'2 puts you in the 95h percentile for male height, which is still a far from from the average in the best basketball league in the world. Genetics play a larger role in other sports than many people realize so obviously though, so I don't take anything away from those who are tall and succeed in basketball more than I would from a track athlete who has the ideal genetics for that discipline.

 

[Jumptheshark]

apples and oranges

 

[WarriorofTime]

Height is the most important skill in basketball. You can compensate for lacking it with athleticism, and skill less so, but extreme height is close to a golden ticket to being a professional basketball player.

As someone who follows basketball recruiting and college basketball and the draft. Not even close to true. You are vastly underestimating the competitive landscape of basketball. Every tall guy in the world gets put on a basketball court.

 

[Breakfast of Champs]

As someone who follows basketball recruiting and college basketball and the draft. Not even close to true. You are vastly underestimating the competitive landscape of basketball. Every tall guy in the world gets put on a basketball court.

Which is the top 5% of people at most. 95% of the world's male population is below 6'2 , which is 5 inches below the nba average height.

You need to have a lot of things, and obviously being tall isn't all there is to it. But being tall at least gives you a chance to have a professional career. If you are in the 95% who aren't - your chances drop immensely

 

[WarriorofTime]

Which is the top 5% of people at most. 95% of the world's male population is below 6'2 , which is 5 inches below the nba average height.

You need to have a lot of things, and obviously being tall isn't all there is to it. But being tall at least gives you a chance to have a professional career. If you are in the 95% who aren't - your chances drop immensely

So what? Are you saying nba players aren’t crazy good athletes? Lol. Yeah it’s a sport for tall, athletic and skilled people. Just like hockey is a sport for rich, athletic and skilled people that grow up close to the arctic circle. Obviously football (soccer) is the most accessible game because there isn’t a big physical, socioeconomic or geographic requirement, which is why it has the most global talent pool and top players from the largest amount of countries.

 

[Breakfast of Champs]

So what? Are you saying nba players aren’t crazy good athletes? Lol. Yeah it’s a sport for tall, athletic and skilled people. Just like hockey is a sport for rich, athletic and skilled people that grow up close to the arctic circle. Obviously football (soccer) is the most accessible game because there isn’t a big physical, socioeconomic or geographic requirement, which is why it has the most global talent pool and top players from the largest amount of countries.

I'm saying anyone who downplays the role of importance height has to basketball ability is being naive, its the most important aspect physically in order to succeed. Like I said above, its the same thing with elite runners, swimmers, etc. as they are all in the genetic 0.1% and that is a major part of their success, its just not as obvious to some people who watch from their TV since getting a breakdown of someone's genetics play such a large role in running marathons or sprinting isn't as obvious to the masses as how being 6'2 and above is basically a requirement to play in the NBA

 

[trick9]

Nope.

Messi isn't even the greatest at his own sport.

 

[CristianoRonaldo]

I had to research who this individual was. Thought he was a boxer.

But looking through Wikipedia, he definitely has a case for number one all time.

What ? How is that even possible ?

 

[J bo Jeans]

it's one thing to say that Basketball has a smaller talent pool than Football (which is true), but to proclaim that being tall is more important than being skilled/athletic in the NBA is pure bunk

Come on man which sport has an average height of 6'7. OBJ, Tyreek Hill, Messi, Neymar, Mbappe, Crosby all under 6ft.

If youre 5'10 and the absolute best athlete on the planet vs if youre maybe slightly above above average but 6'8, who has better odds of making the NBA? In hockey, soccer, football and nearly every other sport the 5'10 super athlete is going to be more effective.

Ofcourse there are freak athletes in the NBA and you have to be talented to play in the league, but good luck getting there if you're not in the 95+ percentile of human height.

 

[Xspyrit]

Insecure

LOL

Jordan did have that 1 year in the minors

Was expecting a lot more likes! You remember this?

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Speaking of GOATs in their respective sports, I suppose this should warrant consideration, though I realize that most don't care about women's swimming:

 

[Zap Rowsdower]

They play different sports. This question doesn't even make sense.

 

[Hockeyholic]

What ? How is that even possible ?

I only follow NFL & NHL. NBA sparingly.

I haven't watched 5 minutes of soccer in my life.

But yes...it appears he has had a great career.