Has Messi surpassed Gretzky/Jordan and others as the GOAT for all sports?

[Ace Card Bedard]

Popularity? Sure Messi is way up there.

Dominance in his sport? No question it's Gretzky because he was peerless.

Messi had a peer, Cristiano Ronaldo.
And over the last century there have been many other greats on par with those two:

Pele, Maradona, Di Stefano, Cruyff, perhaps others depending on your preferences.
Messi belongs among those all-time greats but I would never say he is at the top of the list without question.

Gretzky is.

 

[norrisnick]

Popularity? Sure Messi is way up there.

Dominance in his sport? No question it's Gretzky because he was peerless.

Messi had a peer, Cristiano Ronaldo.
And over the last century there have been many other greats on par with those two:

Pele, Maradona, Di Stefano, Cruyff, perhaps others depending on your preferences.
Messi belongs among those all-time greats but I would never say he is at the top of the list without question.

Gretzky is.

If Cristiano was Messi's peer, then Mario was Wayne's.

 

[Alexandre Achutti]

From the point of view of some here, the GOAT in soccer is automatically the GOAT of all sports (which I disagree with) because soccer is by far the most popular and practiced sport in the world.

We just need to discuss then who is the GOAT in soccer.

I don't see a clear choice in soccer, Messi, Pelé and Maradona each have good arguments for themselves, each has their strengths and accomplishments (which differ from one another, due to the way they play or the season they played)

I have all three on the same level.
I am Brazilian.

 

[Megahab]

I'm not much of a soccer fan but what is the case for Messi over Pele?

 

[norrisnick]

I'm not much of a soccer fan but what is the case for Messi over Pele?

Stronger club play, more individual accolades, and winning internationally with a weaker team than Pele's Brazil.

Messi has basically done and won everything that can be done and won by a soccer player. All while putting up unheard of offensive numbers for an unheard of stretch of time. He's very much like Gretzky in that he's a playmaking forward that coincidentally scores a shit ton of goals as well.

 

[psycat]

I think it does, part of greatness and legacy are being well known. Others have said it many times too but the pool of athletes ice hockey has is a fraction of what Soccer/football has , Gretzky is easily the best hockey player ever, but when it comes to global athletics, he's not even spoken of outside of Canada , to a lesser extent USA, and in small circles in some European countries. If 90 percent of the world has never heard your name its tough to be considered the globe's greatest athlete of all time.

If we are talking sheer athleticism I would also add Usian bolt as he has Gretzky like dominance over his sport along with global recognition that rivals almost anyone

At the same time if you ask people in non-hockey countries to name a single player the ones who can name one will say Gretzky, simply transcended the sport.

I think you underestimate his name recognition slightly(maybe even moreso 10-15 years ago) I know for a fact that a quite substantial amount of people in some Asian countries and most European ones know of the name atleast.

 

[pcruz]

Messi has 7 Ballon d'or and he might win his 8th one while being 36th.

No question asked, Messi is by far the GOAT.

What in the world has Messi done in 2022 to deserve a Ballon d'Or?

 

[Breakfast of Champs]

At the same time if you ask people in non-hockey countries to name a single player the ones who can name one will say Gretzky, simply transcended the sport.

I think you underestimate his name recognition slightly(maybe even moreso 10-15 years ago) I know for a fact that a quite substantial amount of people in some Asian countries and most European ones know of the name atleast

Honestly, they don't even know. I'm an ESL teacher and I've talked to hundreds of people from dozens of countries - the hockey conversation comes up from time to time because I am Canadian and I often ask if they know any hockey players - nope. I would say almost nobody from Asia, India, even South America knows who he is - the sport just isn't popular.

Edit - Even most from Europe have no idea who he is, honestly.

 

[The Panther]

Not false. Here is the breakdown of NHL players by nationality in 1979-80 (Wayne Gretzky's rookie season)

Canada- 83.7 %
United States - 9.9 %
Sweden - 4.3 %
Finland - 0.8 %
Others - 1.3 %

In other words, 1 out 5 players didn't come from Canada when Gretzky was high school age. In other words, your "NHL hockey players in Gretzky's day solely came from Canada (more or less)" statement was false.

Also, "Gretzky's day" didn't end in 1979-80. Gretzky's last prime season was 1990-91, and his last scoring title was 1993-94.

I think it does, part of greatness and legacy are being well known. Others have said it many times too but the pool of athletes ice hockey has is a fraction of what Soccer/football has , Gretzky is easily the best hockey player ever, but when it comes to global athletics, he's not even spoken of outside of Canada , to a lesser extent USA, and in small circles in some European countries. If 90 percent of the world has never heard your name its tough to be considered the globe's greatest athlete of all time.

I get what you're saying, but I'm saying if we want to have an intelligent and critical perspective on something, then how 'popular' one thing is over another isn't an important factor. Of course, at this point, we start getting into the semantics of the word "greatest".

 

[Mitch nylander]

I'm not much of a soccer fan but what is the case for Messi over Pele?

While Pele was the best in his era and won 3 world cups, he never played in Europe therefore he never competed for champions league and never won a Ballon D'Or. Additionally, he doesn't have nearly as much individual/team hardware that messi has.


Messi records & awards (handpicked a bunch)

Notable Individual Awards
Most Ballon D'Ors (World Player of the Year) in Soccer History - 7 (could make it 8)
Most World Cup Golden Balls (Best Player) - 2
Most Copa America Best Player - 2 (pele has 1)
Most LaLiga Best Player - 6
Most Pichichi Awards (LaLiga Top Scorer) - 8
Most European Golden Shoes (Top Scorer in Europe) - 6
6x top champions league scorer
+ many more

Notable Records
Goals
Most Goals with a single club - 672 goals w/ Barcelona
Most Goals scored in a domestic - 474 LaLiga (also laliga top scorer)
Most International Goals by a Commebol player (same federation as Pele) - 98 goals
Most Goals scored in finals - 33
Most Goals in a calendar year (including friendlies) - 96 goals
Most Goals in a calendar year (excluding friendlies) - 91 goals
Most Goals in a single season - 79 goals
Most consecutive seasons with over 40 goals - 12 seasons
Most consecutive seasons with over 30 goals - 13 seasons
Only player to score in 16 consecutive champions leagues
+ 2nd all time in UCL goals, 3rd all time in International goals,
+ countless more records

Assists
Most assists of all time - 350 assists
Most Assists with a single club - 268 (Barcelona)
Most Assists in Domestic League History- 192
Most Assists in World Cup history - 8
Most assists in Copa America History - 17
Most Assists in finals - 14
Most assists in a single season (domestically)- 21
+ 2nd all-time in UCL, 2nd all time in a single season

Goal Contributions, Dribbles
Most Goal Contributions of all time
Most Goal Contributions at major international tournaments - 51
Most Dribbles Completed in History - 1880
Most Dribbles completed in a World Cup - 125

Man of The Matches
Most Man of the Matches ever - 306
Highest Percentage of MOTM - 52% of his games he receives MOTM
Most Man of the Matches in World Cup history - 11
Most Man of the Matches in Copa America history - 14
Most Man of the Matches in a single World Cup - 5
+ countless more

Other
Most trophies by a player all time - 42
Only player to win an olympic gold, a u-20 World Cup, a continental trophy and a World Cup.
Most Consecutive Ballon D'ors- 4
Longest Gap between Ballon D'ors - 10 years
Oldest Player to win Golden Ball - 35 years old
+ Countless more


As much as people hate to see it, this is Gretzky-level dominance/Jordan-level dominance

 

[pcruz]

Speaking of GOATs in their respective sports, I suppose this should warrant consideration, though I realize that most don't care about women's swimming:

I mentioned Ledecky before.

What she is doing in the longer races is unimaginable.

Literally lapping the field consisting of the top 8 swimmers in the world.

She's won races by margins of like 45 seconds

 

[pcruz]

While Pele was the best in his era and won 3 world cups, he never played in Europe therefore he never competed for champions league and never won a Ballon D'Or. Additionally, he doesn't have nearly as much individual/team hardware that messi has.


Messi records & awards (handpicked a bunch)

Notable Individual Awards
Most Ballon D'Ors (World Player of the Year) in Soccer History - 7 (could make it 8)
Most World Cup Golden Balls (Best Player) - 2
Most Copa America Best Player - 2 (pele has 1)
Most LaLiga Best Player - 6
Most Pichichi Awards (LaLiga Top Scorer) - 8
Most European Golden Shoes (Top Scorer in Europe) - 6
6x top champions league scorer
+ many more

Notable Records
Goals
Most Goals with a single club - 672 goals w/ Barcelona
Most Goals scored in a domestic - 474 LaLiga (also laliga top scorer)
Most International Goals by a Commebol player (same federation as Pele) - 98 goals
Most Goals scored in finals - 33
Most Goals in a calendar year (including friendlies) - 96 goals
Most Goals in a calendar year (excluding friendlies) - 91 goals
Most Goals in a single season - 79 goals
Most consecutive seasons with over 40 goals - 12 seasons
Most consecutive seasons with over 30 goals - 13 seasons
Only player to score in 16 consecutive champions leagues
+ 2nd all time in UCL goals, 3rd all time in International goals,
+ countless more records

Assists
Most assists of all time - 350 assists
Most Assists with a single club - 268 (Barcelona)
Most Assists in Domestic League History- 192
Most Assists in World Cup history - 8
Most assists in Copa America History - 17
Most Assists in finals - 14
Most assists in a single season (domestically)- 21
+ 2nd all-time in UCL, 2nd all time in a single season

Goal Contributions, Dribbles
Most Goal Contributions of all time
Most Goal Contributions at major international tournaments - 51
Most Dribbles Completed in History - 1880
Most Dribbles completed in a World Cup - 125

Man of The Matches
Most Man of the Matches ever - 306
Highest Percentage of MOTM - 52% of his games he receives MOTM
Most Man of the Matches in World Cup history - 11
Most Man of the Matches in Copa America history - 14
Most Man of the Matches in a single World Cup - 5
+ countless more

Other
Most trophies by a player all time - 42
Only player to win an olympic gold, a u-20 World Cup, a continental trophy and a World Cup.
Most Consecutive Ballon D'ors- 4
Longest Gap between Ballon D'ors - 10 years
Oldest Player to win Golden Ball - 35 years old
+ Countless more


As much as people hate to see it, this is Gretzky-level dominance/Jordan-level dominance

Not to be a Debbie Downer, but the items I highlighted are strictly popularity contests.

The guy has done a lot over his career, and he is arguably the greatest player of all time, so there is no need to fluff his resume.

There is absolutely no reason for Messi winning a Ballon D'Or this year, and there was no justifiable reason for him winning the golden ball at the world cup.
He had 2 great games, but he took 5 penalties in 7 games and scored 6 goals (only 2 of which were from the run of play).

I'm not a fan of Mbappe, but he was horribly screwed over on the golden ball. There's no question at all about that being an absolute farce. He scored a Hat Trick in the World Cup Final for goodness sake, and of his 8 total goals, 2 were from the spot.

Thomas Muller was screwed out of the golden ball in 2014 as well. That was a hell of a farce.



I know people like the moniker of Penaldo, but my goodness, Messi seems to score an inordinate amount of goals from 11 yards in international tournaments.


7 out of 24 of his international tournament goals (about 29%) from the spot.

Ronaldo scored 6 of his 21 international tournament goals (about 28%) from the spot.


Personally, I believe Messi is the greater player of the 2, but when you compare the stats between Messi and Ronaldo from when they were both in La Liga together, it's not hard to make the argument for either player.

Year	Ronaldo League Games	League Goals	European Games	European Goals	Messi League Games	League Goals	European Games	European Goals
2009/10	29	26	6	7	35	34	11	8
2010/11	34	40	12	6	33	31	13	12
2011/12	38	46	10	10	37	50	11	14
2012/13	34	34	12	12	32	46	11	8
2013/14	30	31	11	17	31	28	7	8
2014/15	35	48	12	10	38	43	13	10
2015/16	36	35	12	16	33	26	7	6
2016/17	29	25	13	12	34	37	9	11
2017/18	27	26	13	15	36	34	10	6

And even later, going to an abysmal Juventus team:

Year	Ronaldo League Games	League Goals	European Games	European Goals	Messi League Games	League Goals	European Games	European Goals
2018/19	31	21	9	6	34	36	10	12
2019/20	33	31	8	4	33	25	8	3
2020/21	33	29	6	4	35	30	6	5
2021/22	31	18	7	6	26	6	7	5
2022/23	10	1	6	2	13	7	5	4

Funnier even, is that internationally, Messi's record for goal scoring is much more aligned with that which is said about Ronaldo - that he feeds on lesser competition and friendlies.

In fact, Ronaldo has as many goals for Portugal, in actual competitive games, as Messi has in total.

	Competitive Games	Goals	Friendly Games	Goals	Total Games	Total Goals
Messi	121	54	51	44	172	98
Ronaldo	144	98	52	20	196	118

 

[Dr Beinfest]

Messi had a peer, Cristiano Ronaldo.

Absolutely not, your argument loses any credibility with this statement. This would be like saying Mark Messier was a peer to Wayne Gretzky. Two historical greats. Two of the best of all time. One which is clearly superior and it’s not even close.

 

[Dr Beinfest]

In other words, 1 out 5 players didn't come from Canada when Gretzky was high school age. In other words, your "NHL hockey players in Gretzky's day solely came from Canada (more or less)" statement was false.

This is a horrible semantic argument. If 4 in 5 players are from Canada but Canada’s population represent only 5-10% of the hockey playing world, it is extremely reasonable to say “NHL players in Gretzky’s day solely came from Canada (more or less).” It’s even freaking caveated with a “more or less.” That statement is very reasonable.

If you want to fire back, the proper response would be that talent elsewhere wasn’t nearly as developed. Not saying that argument is true, but it has more legs than trying to say the league wasn’t almost exclusively Canadian.

 

[Dr Beinfest]

Not to be a Debbie Downer, but the items I highlighted are strictly popularity contests.

The guy has done a lot over his career, and he is arguably the greatest player of all time, so there is no need to fluff his resume.

There is absolutely no reason for Messi winning a Ballon D'Or this year, and there was no justifiable reason for him winning the golden ball at the world cup.
He had 2 great games, but he took 5 penalties in 7 games and scored 6 goals (only 2 of which were from the run of play).

I'm not a fan of Mbappe, but he was horribly screwed over on the golden ball. There's no question at all about that being an absolute farce. He scored a Hat Trick in the World Cup Final for goodness sake, and of his 8 total goals, 2 were from the spot.

Thomas Muller was screwed out of the golden ball in 2014 as well. That was a hell of a farce.



I know people like the moniker of Penaldo, but my goodness, Messi seems to score an inordinate amount of goals from 11 yards in international tournaments.


7 out of 24 of his international tournament goals (about 29%) from the spot.

Ronaldo scored 6 of his 21 international tournament goals (about 28%) from the spot.


Personally, I believe Messi is the greater player of the 2, but when you compare the stats between Messi and Ronaldo from when they were both in La Liga together, it's not hard to make the argument for either player.

Year	Ronaldo League Games	League Goals	European Games	European Goals	Messi League Games	League Goals	European Games	European Goals
2009/10	29	26	6	7	35	34	11	8
2010/11	34	40	12	6	33	31	13	12
2011/12	38	46	10	10	37	50	11	14
2012/13	34	34	12	12	32	46	11	8
2013/14	30	31	11	17	31	28	7	8
2014/15	35	48	12	10	38	43	13	10
2015/16	36	35	12	16	33	26	7	6
2016/17	29	25	13	12	34	37	9	11
2017/18	27	26	13	15	36	34	10	6

And even later, going to an abysmal Juventus team:

Year	Ronaldo League Games	League Goals	European Games	European Goals	Messi League Games	League Goals	European Games	European Goals
2018/19	31	21	9	6	34	36	10	12
2019/20	33	31	8	4	33	25	8	3
2020/21	33	29	6	4	35	30	6	5
2021/22	31	18	7	6	26	6	7	5
2022/23	10	1	6	2	13	7	5	4

Funnier even, is that internationally, Messi's record for goal scoring is much more aligned with that which is said about Ronaldo - that he feeds on lesser competition and friendlies.

In fact, Ronaldo has as many goals for Portugal, in actual competitive games, as Messi has in total.

	Competitive Games	Goals	Friendly Games	Goals	Total Games	Total Goals
Messi	121	54	51	44	172	98
Ronaldo	144	98	52	20	196	118

This really seems like an over-complication. They score similarly - Messi will end his career with more goals at the club level. Messi has a better goal per game ratio in Champions League. He may still end his career with more goals. Messi is the better producer, with more assists. Messi has a higher goal per game ratio in the World Cup. Messi has more cumulative team titles. Messi has more decorations (though honestly who freaking cares). Messi has his cup win (and an Olympic gold medal). Between these two messiahs, one took his people to the promise land. Two great players, but one Ronaldo is on the outside looking in.

 

[Breakfast of Champs]

In other words, 1 out 5 players didn't come from Canada when Gretzky was high school age. In other words, your "NHL hockey players in Gretzky's day solely came from Canada (more or less)" statement was false.

Also, "Gretzky's day" didn't end in 1979-80. Gretzky's last prime season was 1990-91, and his last scoring title was 1993-94.


I get what you're saying, but I'm saying if we want to have an intelligent and critical perspective on something, then how 'popular' one thing is over another isn't an important factor. Of course, at this point, we start getting into the semantics of the word "greatest".

Right - all I am saying is it's pretty biased to consider Gretzky the goat, if we are looking at "who does the world consider the goat" he is not even in the conversation. I understand you can make arguments that he dominated his sport more than anyone else , but again, it's such a niche group of people who even watch that sport. I was taking this as more of a global approach to who would be considered the goat. Every country will have their biases and niche sports where they might have an opinion that differs.

If the question was "what is the greatest sport on earth?" Canadians will say ice hockey , Americans will say American football, Jamaicans might say sprinting, etc. It's just an opinion.

 

[The Panther]

Right - all I am saying is it's pretty biased to consider Gretzky the goat, if we are looking at "who does the world consider the goat" he is not even in the conversation. I understand you can make arguments that he dominated his sport more than anyone else , but again, it's such a niche group of people who even watch that sport. I was taking this as more of a global approach to who would be considered the goat. Every country will have their biases and niche sports where they might have an opinion that differs.

If the question was "what is the greatest sport on earth?" Canadians will say ice hockey , Americans will say American football, Jamaicans might say sprinting, etc. It's just an opinion.

Fair enough. And by the way, I didn't say Gretzky is the "goat".

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Not to be a Debbie Downer, but the items I highlighted are strictly popularity contests.

The guy has done a lot over his career, and he is arguably the greatest player of all time, so there is no need to fluff his resume.

There is absolutely no reason for Messi winning a Ballon D'Or this year, and there was no justifiable reason for him winning the golden ball at the world cup.
He had 2 great games, but he took 5 penalties in 7 games and scored 6 goals (only 2 of which were from the run of play).

I'm not a fan of Mbappe, but he was horribly screwed over on the golden ball. There's no question at all about that being an absolute farce. He scored a Hat Trick in the World Cup Final for goodness sake, and of his 8 total goals, 2 were from the spot.

Thomas Muller was screwed out of the golden ball in 2014 as well. That was a hell of a farce.



I know people like the moniker of Penaldo, but my goodness, Messi seems to score an inordinate amount of goals from 11 yards in international tournaments.


7 out of 24 of his international tournament goals (about 29%) from the spot.

Ronaldo scored 6 of his 21 international tournament goals (about 28%) from the spot.


Personally, I believe Messi is the greater player of the 2, but when you compare the stats between Messi and Ronaldo from when they were both in La Liga together, it's not hard to make the argument for either player.

Year	Ronaldo League Games	League Goals	European Games	European Goals	Messi League Games	League Goals	European Games	European Goals
2009/10	29	26	6	7	35	34	11	8
2010/11	34	40	12	6	33	31	13	12
2011/12	38	46	10	10	37	50	11	14
2012/13	34	34	12	12	32	46	11	8
2013/14	30	31	11	17	31	28	7	8
2014/15	35	48	12	10	38	43	13	10
2015/16	36	35	12	16	33	26	7	6
2016/17	29	25	13	12	34	37	9	11
2017/18	27	26	13	15	36	34	10	6

And even later, going to an abysmal Juventus team:

Year	Ronaldo League Games	League Goals	European Games	European Goals	Messi League Games	League Goals	European Games	European Goals
2018/19	31	21	9	6	34	36	10	12
2019/20	33	31	8	4	33	25	8	3
2020/21	33	29	6	4	35	30	6	5
2021/22	31	18	7	6	26	6	7	5
2022/23	10	1	6	2	13	7	5	4

Funnier even, is that internationally, Messi's record for goal scoring is much more aligned with that which is said about Ronaldo - that he feeds on lesser competition and friendlies.

In fact, Ronaldo has as many goals for Portugal, in actual competitive games, as Messi has in total.

	Competitive Games	Goals	Friendly Games	Goals	Total Games	Total Goals
Messi	121	54	51	44	172	98
Ronaldo	144	98	52	20	196	118

Messi scored 7 goals dude, not 6. And he was clearly the best player in 2014 and moreso in 2022. Modric won the golden ball in 2018 with only two goals, and deservedly so.

 

[Breakfast of Champs]

I only follow NFL & NHL. NBA sparingly.

I haven't watched 5 minutes of soccer in my life.

But yes...it appears he has had a great career.

Now you understand how the rest of the world feels about the NHL and NFL

 

[WarriorofTime]

In other words, 1 out 5 players didn't come from Canada when Gretzky was high school age. In other words, your "NHL hockey players in Gretzky's day solely came from Canada (more or less)" statement was false.

In other words, 1 out 5 players didn't come from Canada when Gretzky was high school age. In other words, your "NHL hockey players in Gretzky's day solely came from Canada (more or less)" statement was false.

uhh I said "more or less" indicating not every single one but a vast majority.. and a number of those 16.3 % (which is actually less than 1/6, not 1/5 as you erroneously claimed) immigrated to Canada at a very young age and had all of their hockey training in Canada, which further supports my original claim

 

[DFF]

Most of the world know who Messi is

I doubt many know who Gretzky is

A few more know who Jordan is but not as many as Messi

 

[The Panther]

This is a horrible semantic argument. If 4 in 5 players are from Canada but Canada’s population represent only 5-10% of the hockey playing world, it is extremely reasonable to say “NHL players in Gretzky’s day solely came from Canada (more or less).” It’s even freaking caveated with a “more or less.” That statement is very reasonable.

If you want to fire back, the proper response would be that talent elsewhere wasn’t nearly as developed. Not saying that argument is true, but it has more legs than trying to say the league wasn’t almost exclusively Canadian.

This is a horrible post.

First of all, you took @WarriorofTime's stated 17% (or whatever it was) of non-Canadians in 1979-80, and magically transformed it to 10%, disingenuously, thereby undermining any point you were trying to make.

Second, "almost exclusively" is a pointless and vague term. The word "exclusively" should be used when the condition is exclusive---which non-Canadian hockey players during Gretzky's NHL career most definitely were not. It's like trying to argue that "virtually 100%" is the same as "80%".

Third, you (like @WarriorofTime) are apparently fixated on Gretzky's teenage / rookie season as representing "Gretzky's day", which is utter nonsense. Since semantics is a big issue between the three of us, what did @WarriorofTime mean exactly (as you are fixated on defending his post) by "Gretzky's day"? Gretzky played in the NHL from 1979 (four years after Henri Richard's last game) until 1999 (five years before Ovechkin was drafted). This is a huge span of time, during which the NHL underwent a few seismic shifts. As I lack the paid website access to calculate nationalities of all NHL players by season, I simply went down the roster of Wayne Gretzky's own NHL clubs in various seasons. This is the result:
1981 = 18% of roster was non-Canadian
1984 = 27% of roster was non-Canadian
1987 = 23% of roster was non-Canadian
1991 = 31% of roster was non-Canadian
1994 = 29% of roster was non-Canadian
1997 = 41% of roster was non-Canadian
Now, of course these are Gretzky's own teams, and I don't know how that would translate across all franchises through those years---obviously, similarly lower numbers on average in the very early-80s and higher on average by the late-90s---but as it spans three franchises, it probably gives us a pretty good idea.

Fourth, "almost exclusively Canadian" regarding Gretzky's salad years (let's say 1980 to 1991 as those are his prime seasons) is dismissing a massive number of significant NHL players to the forgotten dustbin of history, which no fan of hockey should be okay with. In the NHL alone, up to 1991 or so, here are some of the non-Canadian players that Gretzky dominated:
Vaclav Nedomansky
Peter Stastny
Anton Stastny
Marian Stastny
Rick Lanz
Kent Nilsson
Peter Ihnacak
Petr Klima
Michal Pivonka
David Volek
Vladimir Ruzicka
Petr Nedved
Robert Reichel
Frantisek Musil
Ivan Boldirev
Peter Bondra
Stefan Persson
Thomas Gradin
Kent-Erik Andersson
Mats Naslund
Bengt-Ake Gustafsson
Patrick Sundstrom
Anders Kallur
Borje Salming
Jorgen Pettersson
Tomas Jonsson
Hakan Loob
Jan Erixson
Ulf Samuelsson
Michael Thelven
Kjell Dahlin
Frederik Olausson
Calle Johansson
Willy Lindstrom
Anders Hedberg
Miroslav Frycer
Tomas Jonsson
Tomas Sandstrom
Petri Skriko
Pelle Eklund
Pelle Lindberg
Jari Kurri
Jyrki Lumme
Teppo Numminen
Ilkka Sinisalo
Risto Siltanen
Matti Hagman
Kari Eloranta
Esa Tikkanen
Reijo Ruotsalainen
Mikko Makela
Kari Takko
Christian Ruuttu
Dmitri Kristich
Uwe Krupp
Mark Howe
Joe Mullen
Brian Mullen
Tony Granato
Ed Olczyk
Tom Barrasso
Rod Langway
Brett Hull
Brian Leetch
Neal Broten
Aaron Broten
Chris Chelios
Bobby Carpenter
Phil Housley
Jeremy Roenick
Pat Lafontaine
Gary Suter
Craig Ludwig
Craig Janney
Reed Larson
Kevin Stevens
Jimmy Carson
Al Iafrate
Tom Kurvers
Darren Turcotte
Jeff Brown
Mike Ramsey

This is by no means an exhaustive list of non-Canadian players, and again it basically ignores anyone who entered the NHL in Gretzky's last eight seasons (during which he still won a scoring title and was a Hart runner-up twice, and well as having a 40-point playoff). These kind of memorably players should not be overlooked in a misguided attempt to pretend NHL hockey only became competitive when a few high-impact (mostly low-impact) Russians joined.

Fifth, if Gretzky in his prime had bombed-out at international hockey, you might at least have an argument (albeit a weak one) that his dominance is less impressive. But Gretzky participated at the 1978 world juniors, 1981 Canada Cup, 1982 world championships, 1984 Canada Cup, 1987 Canada Cup, and 1991 Canada Cup, and was the leading scorer at every single one.

 

[Breakfast of Champs]

From the point of view of some here, the GOAT in soccer is automatically the GOAT of all sports (which I disagree with) because soccer is by far the most popular and practiced sport in the world.

We just need to discuss then who is the GOAT in soccer.

I don't see a clear choice in soccer, Messi, Pelé and Maradona each have good arguments for themselves, each has their strengths and accomplishments (which differ from one another, due to the way they play or the season they played)

I have all three on the same level.
I am Brazilian.

Not necessarily, I think what we are saying is that the level of competition and sheer amount of people who play make it less likely that someone will be as dominant on a Gretzky-like level. Having a smaller gap in a sport like soccer is natural because its the sport everyone plays. Its not as simple as saying that the top footballer is the goat, but it does need to be taken into consideration because of how much more difficult it is to distance yourself from your peers when you have 50X the amount of competition. If we are to look at it form an alternative perspective - Gretzky dominated a sport in a small town, Messi dominated a sport in a mega city (to scale). Its not surprising that the small town had someone who was head and shoulders better than the rest, but in the city you likely had many players in that tier.

Its not just soccer and then hockey, either - there are multiple other sports that fall in between the two in popularity, but at the end of the day, the most popular sport is going to have a large advantage because of A - how popular it is, and B - how difficult it is to separate yourself from the others in the pack. Its not apples to apples. I would say if we are going to consider Gretzky, we would be better off choosing someone like Bolt who had both vast dominance over his peers as well as a global pool of athletes to compete against.

 

[WarriorofTime]

As I lack the paid website access to calculate nationalities of all NHL players by season,

paid access? It's available for free on quanthockey.com

I use Gretzky's rookie year because that is when he was breaking into the League. Gretzky's prime was in the 1980s, that is when he put up ungodly point totals. If Wayne Gretzky's career only existed in the 1990s through some weird space-time continuum glitch, he wouldn't be the Wayne Gretzky we all know, just another very good hockey player. In Gretzky's prime in the 1980s, the league was MORE OR LESS Canadian. You are getting weirdly caught in the semantics of this all. Yes, there were some guys from Minnesota (almost half of the Americans at the time, a place sometimes nicknamed the "eleventh province" The 11th province? Considering the state of Minnesota’s special relationship with Canada | MinnPost), Massachusetts and Michigan. Sweden and Finland produced scarce players. USA produces way more players today as there wasn't as much hockey infrastructure outside of a few places. The Eastern Bloc was behind the iron curtain.

For whatever reason you are so fixated on the semantics of this, but the point is very clear. Gretzky played against a tiny talent pool at a time shortly after the League rapidly expanded. That has nothing to do with how awesome Gretzky was or that he was the best player in the world hands down and is rightfully considered the best to ever play ice hockey. We are, however, trying to (which is a silly thing to do in my opinion) compare him to the best player in the eyes of many in the world's most popular and accessible game by a landslide in a highly globalized era. It's a total apples and oranges comparison and trying to compare Gretzky to Messi suggests to me someone that has a tough time seeing the world on a larger scale than their own tiny bubble.

 

[The Panther]

paid access? It's available for free on quanthockey.com

I use Gretzky's rookie year because that is when he was breaking into the League. Gretzky's prime was in the 1980s, that is when he put up ungodly point totals. If Wayne Gretzky's career only existed in the 1990s through some weird space-time continuum glitch, he wouldn't be the Wayne Gretzky we all know, just another very good hockey player. In Gretzky's prime in the 1980s, the league was MORE OR LESS Canadian. You are getting weirdly caught in the semantics of this all. Yes, there were some guys from Minnesota (almost half of the Americans at the time, a place sometimes nicknamed the "eleventh province" The 11th province? Considering the state of Minnesota’s special relationship with Canada | MinnPost), Massachusetts and Michigan. Sweden and Finland produced scarce players. USA produces way more players today as there wasn't as much hockey infrastructure outside of a few places. The Eastern Bloc was behind the iron curtain.

For whatever reason you are so fixated on the semantics of this, but the point is very clear. Gretzky played against a tiny talent pool at a time shortly after the League rapidly expanded. That has nothing to do with how awesome Gretzky was or that he was the best player in the world hands down and is rightfully considered the best to ever play ice hockey. We are, however, trying to (which is a silly thing to do in my opinion) compare him to the best player in the eyes of many in the world's most popular and accessible game by a landslide in a highly globalized era. It's a total apples and oranges comparison and trying to compare Gretzky to Messi suggests to me someone that has a tough time seeing the world on a larger scale than their own tiny bubble.

I don't what to say at this point. Your credibility went with the statement, "If Wayne Gretzky's career only existed in the 1990s through some weird space-time continuum glitch, he wouldn't be the Wayne Gretzky we all know, just another very good hockey player."

(And in case anyone reading this back and forth is confused, I have not ever compared Gretzky to Messi.)