Has Messi surpassed Gretzky/Jordan and others as the GOAT for all sports?

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Messi scored just one goal in 2005-06 CL run and didn't play in the quaterfinals, semifinals and the final game so yeah, while technically he won the league, he played in less than half games during that run and he wasn't even a starter in most games he played in...

Anyway, if we talk about him as the best player ever that run won't add anything to his portfolio. I know, you can say Messi was very young back to then. Ok, Pele was 17 at the WC 58 and still scored 6 goals in 4 games...

So let me get this right. Messi playing 6/13 matches (46%) in barcas 2006 run isn't good enough for you to consider him a UCL winner that year. But Pele playing 1/6 matches (ok sorry, 1 match and 20 minutes of another match) in Brazil's 1962 run is enough for you to say "3x world champion!". Giving false info about when barca won the UCL was bad enough. Now your bias and hypocrisy is just embarrassing. Making up your own stats and criteria will always lead to winning your argument. Not too different from Pele who added random goals from backyard friendlies to his goal count.

 

[Fantomas]

Plenty of knowledgeable people don't even have Gretzky as the best hockey player ever.

Serena is not even the greatest female player. Margaret Court is

mmmm... maybe. It's very close between several players. I would say Evert, Navratilova, Graf are all in the conversation also.

Court has the most majors, but more watered down competition and a lot of weaker Aussie titles. Evert actually has a great argument because she didn't play many of the watered down Aussies and French opens in the 70s. Meanwhile Navratilova becomes a clear GOAT if you give a lot of weight to her doubles dominance. I think Graf is my pick.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

The Messi hype is justified, he's absolutely one of the all time best scorers in football. But best football player? No.

If he returns from his retirement contract to La Liga to play for an underdog team and leads them to a championship over Barca, we can talk about him being better than Cruyff or Beckenbauer.

The likes of Zidane or Maradona though? I don't think so.

Yes because Beckenbauer wasn't on a stacked Germany and Bayern team, Cruyff wasn't on a stacked Netherlands and Ajax, Zidane wasn't on a stacked France and Madrid/Juve. It's almost like great players are surrounded by other great players to make a great team.

 

[Joey Banana]

Chaotic post! There’s no case really for Zidane over either of Cruyff or Beckenbauer, and there really is no case at all for him over Messi.

I mean it's a pointed post to get these reactions, but more so in defense of Messi. Now i want to read your case against Zidane though.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Think of Messi as college players on Alabama. Always on a team that is full of resources and players that far exceed the average level of the leagues that he plays in. There are only a handful of teams that can win a CL or a World Cup because the front running teams are so much more superior. Gretzky and Jordan are many classes above Messi because soccer after the 90s became a game where the richest win period.

1) barcas resources never exceeded Madrid, city, utd, Chelsea, psg, Bayern to the point it gave them some kind of advantage in the UCL

2) Gretzky was on arguably the most stacked NHL team in history who were good enough to win after he left.

3) Jordan always had the odds stacked in his favour in his 6 finals appearances and had joke competition. Him and Pippen (2 all stars in their prime) vs about to retire Magic. Then vs Drexler. Then Barkley. Then they get Rodman and vs Payton/Kemp. Then Malone and Stockton. Bulls made the 2nd round the year he "retired" but Jordan never won a playoff series without Pippen.

 

[Fatass]

So it’s now 70%-30% for who is Messi.

 

[EXTRAS]

I wish there was a it's not messi but I dunno who option

 

[Joey Banana]

Yes because Beckenbauer wasn't on a stacked Germany and Bayern team, Cruyff wasn't on a stacked Netherlands and Ajax, Zidane wasn't on a stacked France and Madrid/Juve. It's almost like great players are surrounded by other great players to make a great team.

Absolutely. That's why i pointed out that Beckenbauer winning with the HSV and Cruyff with Feyenoord is one of the things that made them stand above their great peers. Same with Pele still performing in 1970 or Zidane in 06.

Barca really was a made bed for him from Day 1 and for all the complaints about CR7 needing teams to be biult around his game, what do you think Argentina's NT has been doing for the last 15+ years?

Messi deserves all his successes and a place at that table, but i don't agree that he set himself apart from every other past great footballer. Especially not Maradona.

 

[johnnybbadd]

I'm sorry but that's a laughably bad argument. As if super teams didn't exist in other sports or could not be created by other means. Gretzky only played on what is commonly seen as the most talented NHL team of ALL TIME. Even without him they still were capable of winning the cup and they did. And while they didn't win without him Jordan's bull's were no slouches either.

Messi played most of his career in the Spanish league where only 2 or maybe 3 of 20 teams had a realistic shot of winning their league. Wages and money in the last 20 years have created a system where there is just not an even playing field. 80% of the games that Messi has played the betting odds for the team that played Barca or PSG would pay more to win than then 99% of the games in the big 4 of North American sports. He’s a work class athlete one of the best ever in his sport but using a bigger playing field as an argument is non existent when it is so unbalanced because of money.

 

[Isi]

Ric Flair also had 16, and he is ranked the #1 GOAT on Sports Illustrated's list.

Cena is only ranked 7th.

A definitive ranking of the 101 greatest wrestlers

SI.com's ranking of the top 101 wrestlers of all time.

www.si.com

This list is obviously extremely American and WWE-focused list, which is fine for an American publication, but probably not of any real value. Rikidozan & El Santo and Bruno Sammartino are just dumped in the 30's and 40's and Manami Toyota isn't in there at all. Terry Funk isn't in the top 50 but has supporters for GOAT status simply because he did it all, all over the place, for 30 years. There's no Tanahashi but Nakamura is there because of a (not particularly special) run in NXT which any of fan of 2000s/2010s NJPW would find laughable. Cagematch, probably the top rankings site for wresling nerds, has a "top wrestlers" list which almost the opposite to that SI list, you have to get to 16 until you see an American in Shawn Michaels.

Doing any sort of GOAT rankings for wrestling is extremely difficult though given how much the industry has changed over 100 years. Are you ranking simply based on the in-ring performance? Their ability to generate money? A mixture of those things? The greatness of the pre-1970 wrestlers is usually a judgement based on how many people turned up to watch them. Now, no modern wrestler in WWE really has any impact on getting people to turn up to the show. They turn up for the brand nowadays (John Cena, iirc, is the last WWE guy whose announced appearances can really be linked to an increase gate for their house show tours). WWE now makes their money through guaranteed TV deals (and uh the Saudi government) and the wrestlers are often replaceable (even the loss of John Cena was overcome with little trouble, and now Vince McMahon has gone with no noticeable negative impact yet), but TV ratings are not as easy to link to greatness as a main eventer going from city to city and drawing a crowd like the NWA title holders in the territory days or Bruno Sammartino selling out MSG 180 times or whatever.

It's also nearly impossible to compare a John Cena or Fic Flair to Rikidozan & El Santo who are nearly mythical figures. Rikidozan essentially created the Japanese wrestling industry, had a match against Lou Thesz (himself a possible GOAT) that was watched by 87% of people with a TV in Japan and another match against the Destroyer is claimed to have been watched by 70M of people in Japan (a more concrete claim of 64% of people with a TV watching the match iexists) and two of his students would go onto to consolidate the wresting industry and each have their own claims on GOAT status (Giant Baba and Antonio Inoki). El Santo simply transcended the business and became a cultural icon in Mexico that isn't really comparable to any other wrestler. Eddie Guerrero said El Santo was “bigger than Hulk Hogan and Stone Cold Steve Austin combined” for example.

 

[Alexandre Achutti]

If you said Garrincha I could agree with you to some extent, but Didi...

Didi was voted as the best player for those who covered the 1958 cup.
Not exactly my opinion.

I think that Didi controlled the midfield, Garrincha on the right side opened up the defenses (said by the opponents) and Vavá and Pelé (with more brilliance) completed the plays).

Zito was a great passer, he helped Didi in midfield, Zagallo played tactical roles, both full-backs were firm.

Goalkeeper and defenders without compromising.

This was Brazil's team from 1958.

There wasn't just one element alone that led most of the actions and decided most of the games.

It was a team of collective action, and individual responsibilities and merits shared.


This discussion of best sportsman is without solution.

Everyone has their own point of view, but many times I see things in posts that weren't facts, as well as ill-conceived ideas.

My written English sucks, too bad, I would like to point out some mistakes and inconsistencies.

 

[Kshahdoo]

So let me get this right. Messi playing 6/13 matches (46%) in barcas 2006 run isn't good enough for you to consider him a UCL winner that year. But Pele playing 1/6 matches (ok sorry, 1 match and 20 minutes of another match) in Brazil's 1962 run is enough for you to say "3x world champion!". Giving false info about when barca won the UCL was bad enough. Now your bias and hypocrisy is just embarrassing. Making up your own stats and criteria will always lead to winning your argument. Not too different from Pele who added random goals from backyard friendlies to his goal count.

This narrative about 3 times world champion is purely your agenda. I keep talking about his 1958 and 1970 runs but it looks like you have nothing to say about. Why, I wonder...

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Think of Messi as college players on Alabama. Always on a team that is full of resources and players that far exceed the average level of the leagues that he plays in. There are only a handful of teams that can win a CL or a World Cup because the front running teams are so much more superior. Gretzky and Jordan are many classes above Messi because soccer after the 90s became a game where the richest win period.

Are you suggesting that Jordan and Gretzky won championships on teams that weren't stacked?

 

[johnnybbadd]

Are you suggesting that Jordan and Gretzky won championships on teams that weren't stacked?

I’m suggesting that they were drafted in a system that everyone is on a somewhat even playing field. They were actually the sole reason that their teams became stacked. Why are people defending a clearly flawed way that soccer works in Europe where money is the sole reason that a team wins 99.9% of the time? I think it ruined the game but I guess I’m alone on that thought.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I’m suggesting that they were drafted in a system that everyone is on a somewhat even playing field. They were actually the sole reason that their teams became stacked. Why are people defending a clearly flawed way that soccer works in Europe where money is the sole reason that a team wins 99.9% of the time? I think it ruined the game but I guess I’m alone on that thought.

The Oilers won a cup without 99 and Jordan won one playoff game in his career without Pippin. The Bulls who suddenly lost Jordan for a year and a half still won 55 games their first season without him

 

[Alexandre Achutti]

Are you suggesting that Jordan and Gretzky won championships on teams that weren't stacked?

I believe that when they say team stacked they mean talented (English is not my native language).

I don't see the first three peat team like that.

Pippen, Grant, Cartwright and Paxson, with the only contributors coming from the bank being Armstrong and Livingston.

This is a level of talent considered normal in the NBA at the time.

Even having a good game plan and defensive solidity, I can say that Jordan often carried this team on his back.

No wonder he was champion with records in PPG, usage%, PER and winshare48min.
Records that still stand today.

The games are all recorded for anyone who wants to see. And statistics available on websites for this purpose.


I don't understand much about hockey, even less about its history.

But the Oilers being champions after Gretzky left with pretty much the same team says something.

 

[tacogeoff]

Has Messi surpassed Gretzky/Jordan and others as the GOAT for all sports​

I would say yes. absolutely. Soccer/football is the most popular sport in the world. what Messi has accomplished would easily put him at the top of the GOAT pile. While tied in championship wins with Dani Alves, Messi's individual awards/honors on top of all the championships blow everyone out of the water in the soccer/football world.

Gretzky while ridiculously dominate in the NHL doesn't have the GOAT recognition worldwide as many countries do not follow hockey as it is a premium sport to participate in. you could travel to any part of the world and i guarentee you if you polled this question Messi would be considered the GOAT over Gretzky 8 times out of 10.

jmo.

 

[Machinehead]

Think of Messi as college players on Alabama. Always on a team that is full of resources and players that far exceed the average level of the leagues that he plays in. There are only a handful of teams that can win a CL or a World Cup because the front running teams are so much more superior. Gretzky and Jordan are many classes above Messi because soccer after the 90s became a game where the richest win period.

No clue but I'm going to assume he played on a powerhouse team with an unlimited budget over the years like a lot of the soccer greats did. lol

Yeah but there's a dozen of those. It isn't the advantage it is in NA sports, as odd as that sounds. There's a team in Barcelona's own league that can out-spend Barcelona.

Also, Barcelona were renowned for their farm system through Messi's prime. Xavi, Iniesta, Alba, Fabregas, Puyol, Piqué, Busquets, Valdés, and Messi himself who joined Barcelona at 13. All played together, all "Hall of Famers." It's one of the best runs of youth development in sports history of not the best.

 

[Machinehead]

This list is obviously extremely American and WWE-focused list, which is fine for an American publication, but probably not of any real value. Rikidozan & El Santo and Bruno Sammartino are just dumped in the 30's and 40's and Manami Toyota isn't in there at all. Terry Funk isn't in the top 50 but has supporters for GOAT status simply because he did it all, all over the place, for 30 years. There's no Tanahashi but Nakamura is there because of a (not particularly special) run in NXT which any of fan of 2000s/2010s NJPW would find laughable. Cagematch, probably the top rankings site for wresling nerds, has a "top wrestlers" list which almost the opposite to that SI list, you have to get to 16 until you see an American in Shawn Michaels.

Doing any sort of GOAT rankings for wrestling is extremely difficult though given how much the industry has changed over 100 years. Are you ranking simply based on the in-ring performance? Their ability to generate money? A mixture of those things? The greatness of the pre-1970 wrestlers is usually a judgement based on how many people turned up to watch them. Now, no modern wrestler in WWE really has any impact on getting people to turn up to the show. They turn up for the brand nowadays (John Cena, iirc, is the last WWE guy whose announced appearances can really be linked to an increase gate for their house show tours). WWE now makes their money through guaranteed TV deals (and uh the Saudi government) and the wrestlers are often replaceable (even the loss of John Cena was overcome with little trouble, and now Vince McMahon has gone with no noticeable negative impact yet), but TV ratings are not as easy to link to greatness as a main eventer going from city to city and drawing a crowd like the NWA title holders in the territory days or Bruno Sammartino selling out MSG 180 times or whatever.

It's also nearly impossible to compare a John Cena or Fic Flair to Rikidozan & El Santo who are nearly mythical figures. Rikidozan essentially created the Japanese wrestling industry, had a match against Lou Thesz (himself a possible GOAT) that was watched by 87% of people with a TV in Japan and another match against the Destroyer is claimed to have been watched by 70M of people in Japan (a more concrete claim of 64% of people with a TV watching the match iexists) and two of his students would go onto to consolidate the wresting industry and each have their own claims on GOAT status (Giant Baba and Antonio Inoki). El Santo simply transcended the business and became a cultural icon in Mexico that isn't really comparable to any other wrestler. Eddie Guerrero said El Santo was “bigger than Hulk Hogan and Stone Cold Steve Austin combined” for example.

Oh man, the Misawa, Tanahashi, and Okada disrespect...

 

[Fantomas]

Is there some sort of football equivalent of WAR/PER/ELO to compare players? Or is this impossible because of different leagues?

I've always been curious how great players from different eras compare mathematically. And I'm not a big enough football fan to know.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Who?

 

[Xspyrit]

My time 10 all time goat. Only hockey player I have on it is Orr. 1 hockey, 1 NFL, 1 cyclist, 2 tennis, 2 baseball, 1 soccer, 1 boxing, 1 basketball

1. Tom Brady
2. Eddy Merckx
3. Rafael Nadal
4. Bobby Orr
5. Novak Djokovich
6. Hank Aaron
7. Michael Jordan
8. Babe Ruth
9. Lionel Messi
10. Muhammad Ali

That's 3 baseball

 

[Xspyrit]

No, it's still Gretzky.

Stop trying to make soccer happen.

Hockey is my favorite sport but you guys are funny

Let me know when hockey reaches anything closes to that

 

[Crow]

Hard to believe so many people have Ali as a goat just because he had a huge mouth. He is a borderline top 5 boxer of all time. Please look into it instead of listening to his “I am the greatest” bullshit. He isn’t even the best heavyweight all time. It’s not a popularity contest.

 

[johnnybbadd]

Yeah but there's a dozen of those. It isn't the advantage it is in NA sports, as odd as that sounds. There's a team in Barcelona's own league that can out-spend Barcelona.

Also, Barcelona were renowned for their farm system through Messi's prime. Xavi, Iniesta, Alba, Fabregas, Puyol, Piqué, Busquets, Valdés, and Messi himself who joined Barcelona at 13. All played together, all "Hall of Famers." It's one of the best runs of youth development in sports history of not the best.

Thanks for making my point. Messi walked into Barcelona at precisely the same time that Spain had an unprecedented run of players and had all of its international success. Spain dominated internationally to a greater extent than Barca did and that was a team that didn’t include Messi. Again he’s great but he’s no Jordan. It’s great that he finally won a World Cup but it doesn’t instantly make him better than other players. I personally prefer Maradona.