Has Messi surpassed Gretzky/Jordan and others as the GOAT for all sports?

[lomiller1]

Some points against Messi (IMO)
- There is no clear #1 league for him to dominate
- Relegation and finance differences means there is a massive gap in talent on top and bottom teams. It should be much easier for top players to dominate low grade competition (I.E. imagine if Gretzky's Oilers got to play 40 games a year against AHL teams )
- he didn't separate himself from his contemporaries the way Gretzky did

 

[dortt]

It's still either Tom Brady or Eddy Merckx

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

So how is he overrated if he was the best player at two World Cups (and won both) and couldn't become the one at the other two Cups just because he was purposely injured by opponents?

Because people like you scream "3x world cup winner!" when again, he didn't even play in 1962 but Brazil still won. His best world cup run was 6 goals which is pathetic when compared to the actual great runs.

Also, barca won the UCL in 2015 and their roster has never had a "200M" more expensive roster than the likes of Madrid, Chelsea, Utd, Bayern, etc. At least get basic info right before you try to make an "argument".

 

[Hierso]

If we're not talking about team sports my money is on Bolt.

 

[Kshahdoo]

Because people like you scream "3x world cup winner!" when again, he didn't even play in 1962 but Brazil still won. His best world cup run was 6 goals which is pathetic when compared to the actual great runs.

Also, barca won the UCL in 2015 and their roster has never had a "200M" more expensive roster than the likes of Madrid, Chelsea, Utd, Bayern, etc. At least get basic info right before you try to make an "argument".

Pele scored those "pathetic" 6 goals in the playoffs stage, quaterfinal, semifinal and the final in 1958. In 1970 he played more of a playmaker role given the team had a lot of talented forwards. People said he was more dominant in 1970 than in 1958 despite scoring "just" 4 goals.

Still Messi won just 3 Champions League' titles despite playing on one of the most stacked teams ever. He scored tons of goals in La Liga where Real and Barcelona usually had 10 times bigger budget than most teams. If you send current Oilers to the AHL McDavid will easily outscore all Gretzky records. Does it make him better than The Great One though?

 

[Rexor]

Some points against Messi (IMO)
- There is no clear #1 league for him to dominate
- Relegation and finance differences means there is a massive gap in talent on top and bottom teams. It should be much easier for top players to dominate low grade competition (I.E. imagine if Gretzky's Oilers got to play 40 games a year against AHL teams )
- he didn't separate himself from his contemporaries the way Gretzky did

He separated himself from Ronaldo more than Gretzky separated himself from Lemieux.

 

[Alexandre Achutti]

Pele was the best player at WC 58 and 70. He was by far the best player in 62 as well, but opponents just broke him because they couldn't stop him legally. If it were modern rules back to then, Brazilia opponents would have probably finished every game with 7 or 6 players...

Didi was the best player WC 1958.

 

[Frolov 6'3]

It's still either Tom Brady or Eddy Merckx

That someone from Canada of all places, says Eddy Merckx.

 

[psycat]

Cricket is a niche sport? Are you serious? Lmao!

It truly is in almost every country on earth though, of course same could be said for pretty much any sport besides football I suppose.

Besides I would argue it's more of a game than a sport: More similiar to snooker, pool, dart, esport etc.

 

[psycat]

How has he not? I fail to see anything Maradona or Pele have over him? Maybe you could argue Pele's WC history but as a full career profile, Messi is in a league of his own. In an era where competition is unreal.

I also believe Messi is the greatest football player of all time(not best at absolute peak though) but there are other arguments such as the fact that he played on mega stacked teams and

Ronaldo phenomeno might be the best, Maradona the greatest

I don't agree, I feel like Maradona is slightly overrated(The Richard/Harvey of football) still a great player of course but the legend is larger than the player.

Top 5 for me would regarding greatest football players of all time would probably be something like:

Messi
Pelé
Cruyff
Maldini
(Brazilian) Ronaldo

But in reality it's pretty much up in the air past Messi and Pelé at #1 and #2.

 

[dortt]

That someone from Canada of all places, says Eddy Merckx.

from the USA

 

[Kshahdoo]

Didi was the best player WC 1958.

If you said Garrincha I could agree with you to some extent, but Didi...

 

[TBF1972]

Some points against Messi (IMO)
- There is no clear #1 league for him to dominate
- Relegation and finance differences means there is a massive gap in talent on top and bottom teams. It should be much easier for top players to dominate low grade competition (I.E. imagine if Gretzky's Oilers got to play 40 games a year against AHL teams )
- he didn't separate himself from his contemporaries the way Gretzky did

there are at least 5-10 teams in the champions league, who have enough ressources to compete for the the title every season. the biggest advantage of barcelona over its competition wasn't money. it was their football academy, which is kind of a copy cat of the ajax academy. (the best thing johan cruyff ever did for barca.) with many other teams copying the ajax/barca concept this advantage is dwindling

the acacemy provided them with tranfer fee free top players for years. puyol, xavi, iniesta, 'pique', busquets, jordi alba, pedri, gavri and so on. for close to 20 years barca also delivered the core of the spanish national team. the problem for spain is it is tacitally limited to the 'barca' system and barcelona only developped only one world class striker in this time frame and he is not a spaniard.

 

[lomiller1]

He separated himself from Ronaldo more than Gretzky separated himself from Lemieux.

Nah. Lemieux never came close to matching the run of seasons Gretzky had in his prime,.

 

[Xspyrit]

Also, what is this poll looking for? Greatest athlete of all time? Why is the argument "separate himself from his peers" is being used that much?

He separated himself from Ronaldo more than Gretzky separated himself from Lemieux.

And Orr, Howe, McDavid...

Eras when they all played and injuries/sickness might be the only reasons why Gretzky is "so far ahead" for some

I personally find more impressive what McDavid is doing against today goalies and defensive systems than the 80's but maybe it's just me

So I have no idea what people mean by these "separate himself from his peers as much as Gretzky comments"

 

[Hockeyholic]

Ric Flair also had 16, and he is ranked the #1 GOAT on Sports Illustrated's list.

Cena is only ranked 7th.

A definitive ranking of the 101 greatest wrestlers

SI.com's ranking of the top 101 wrestlers of all time.

www.si.com

Flair as the GOAT is something I can agree with. Not sure how I forgot about him.

 

[Rexor]

Nah. Lemieux never came close to matching the run of seasons Gretzky had in his prime,.

That's because of Mario's health, not lack of ability. Gretzky also benefits from the fact that his prime and Lemieux's prime only marginally overlapped, as he was pretty much having a free reign from early to late 1980's. My point though is that in terms of peak ability, we could be having an endless discussion whether it was actually Wayne or Mario who was the better player. While in case of Messi v. Ronaldo, I just never saw it as a serious question. Ronaldo is more athletic and more complex as a finisher (not better, just more complex), but it cannot overcome the very wide gap that is between them in technical skills and overall sense of the game.

 

[the_fan]

No, Messi benefitted a lot from amazing Barcelona teams to get all the goals he scored as well as UEFA basically gifting Barca numerous games in the champions league.

And the refs helped greatly with Argentina this year. I would rate Tom Brady and Gretzky over Messi any day of the week.

Oh that's right. Gretzky didn't benefit from all those loaded Oiler teams.

 

[dortt]

My time 10 all time goat. Only hockey player I have on it is Orr. 1 hockey, 1 NFL, 1 cyclist, 2 tennis, 2 baseball, 1 soccer, 1 boxing, 1 basketball

1. Tom Brady
2. Eddy Merckx
3. Rafael Nadal
4. Bobby Orr
5. Novak Djokovich
6. Hank Aaron
7. Michael Jordan
8. Babe Ruth
9. Lionel Messi
10. Muhammad Ali

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Pele scored those "pathetic" 6 goals in the playoffs stage, quaterfinal, semifinal and the final in 1958. In 1970 he played more of a playmaker role given the team had a lot of talented forwards. People said he was more dominant in 1970 than in 1958 despite scoring "just" 4 goals.

Still Messi won just 3 Champions League' titles despite playing on one of the most stacked teams ever. He scored tons of goals in La Liga where Real and Barcelona usually had 10 times bigger budget than most teams. If you send current Oilers to the AHL McDavid will easily outscore all Gretzky records. Does it make him better than The Great One though?

Before giving history lessons, maybe learn the basics. You said barca hasn't won a UCL since 2011, which is wrong. Now you're saying Messi won 3 UCLs which is again wrong. If you're going to make up your own stats and records then of course you'll win every argument.

 

[Ben White]

Pele scored those "pathetic" 6 goals in the playoffs stage, quaterfinal, semifinal and the final in 1958. In 1970 he played more of a playmaker role given the team had a lot of talented forwards. People said he was more dominant in 1970 than in 1958 despite scoring "just" 4 goals.

Still Messi won just 3 Champions League' titles despite playing on one of the most stacked teams ever. He scored tons of goals in La Liga where Real and Barcelona usually had 10 times bigger budget than most teams. If you send current Oilers to the AHL McDavid will easily outscore all Gretzky records. Does it make him better than The Great One though?

Great explenation for the ones who believe Messi is the goat

 

[bambamcam4ever]

What has Messi done outside of World Cups where he's clearly behind Pele and Maradona? Won a bunch of titles when Barca had like 200M+ moe expensive roster than any other team? As soon as other teams got big budgets, Barca and Messi haven't won anything. Barcelona won its last Champions League in 2011 year.

Barcelona won in 2015

 

[Shane Diesel]

No, it's still Gretzky.

Stop trying to make soccer happen.

 

[sansabri]

My time 10 all time goat. Only hockey player I have on it is Orr. 1 hockey, 1 NFL, 1 cyclist, 2 tennis, 2 baseball, 1 soccer, 1 boxing, 1 basketball

1. Tom Brady
2. Eddy Merckx
3. Rafael Nadal
4. Bobby Orr
5. Novak Djokovich
6. Hank Aaron
7. Michael Jordan
8. Babe Ruth
9. Lionel Messi
10. Muhammad Ali

two tennis players and not one of them is Serena Williams

 

[Adam da bomb]

Not to take anything away from Phelps, but the opportunity for multiple medals in swimming is greater than every other sport. There is no way to win multiple medals in many of the sports. And in some other sports, maybe you can only win 2 or 3 per Olympics.

The more I think about this question, the more I realize that it's simply not possible to answer it. I'm not sure why people feel compelled to compare apples and oranges.

I think credible arguments can be made for most of the names in this thread. What about Jim Thorpe? Bo Jackson? They never dominated 1 particular sport like Gretzky, but they were multi-sport athletes at the highest levels. That being said, I will not entertain any argument that a golfer can be the world's greatest athlete. Also, if you want to limit it to dominance over one sport, Secretariat is a good choice. That horse still has the fastest times in all 3 Triple Crown races.

Haha I think it has to be limited to humans but I’m often wrong. At least no one has brought up the world’s greatest poker player or pool player as sports channels would have you think.