Has Messi surpassed Gretzky/Jordan and others as the GOAT for all sports?

[Ben White]

It's the same argument you can use against Gretzky, and it leads as nowhere. Football players today are much faster and more explosive than in the 1980's, have to follow rigorous diet and training routines, drug tests are ubiquitous. How would have Maradona coped with this?

With everything else equal, Maradona would feast on today’s defences especially if protected and lifted up by the most stacked team in the world in a league with lots of cannon-fodder teams to feast on. Maradona could do with an orange what Messi can do with a football, his fighting spirit was also on another level.

Pretty easily, if we compare to Gretzky and Jordan.

Jordan - basketball. American player in a sport where the only competitive nation is America. Yawn.

Gretzky - hockey, a niche sport. A Candian player where Canadian players have dominated since the dawn of time. Yawn.

Messi's from Argentina, which is a strong country but hardly long-term dominant. The international level of competition is much greater as is the talent pool. Even though I think that football is a snorefest of a sport to watch and can barely sit through 90 minutes of it about once a year, when it comes to athletic achievements this one's not close.

I agree with all this except that Messi isn’t the goat soccer player in the first place

 

[hockey20000]

nah jordan is the best to ever play a sport in my opinion.

 

[TBF1972]

Not to mention that defenders were allowed to kick down forwards without a foul back then and that the Italian league was super defence oriented and much more even between the top like 6 teams, not two dominant power houses in a generally uneven league in an era where you can’t touch attackers without a foul and a much more offence oriented/less defensively disciplined era. No way Messi does what Maradona did on that Napoli team or at that Argentina squad.

Look, you can’t throw around contextless stats to prove anything in soccer the way you can (at least to some extent) in the NHL. It’s difficult enough to compare different eras inside one league and one hockey culture, but at least there are tools to at least get closer to the truth, but to compare soccer players from different eras in different leagues, countries, systems, cultures is much more context and eye test based. Goal totals have little to do with it.

and maradona never led the italian league in scoring.

also looking at the second goal against england no player tries to kick down maradona. so there was already a change and players got better protected by the refs. probably also a direct consequence of the brutal foul from goikoetxea on maradona two years earlier. the world cup 1982 tough featured claudio gentile on the cup winning italian team, who i don't remember for anything else than blatantly fouling the attackers.

you have chosen to believe in the myth of maradona. others not.

 

[TBF1972]

With everything else equal, Maradona would feast on today’s defences especially if protected and lifted up by the most stacked team in the world in a league with lots of cannon-fodder teams to feast on. Maradona could do with an orange what Messi can do with a football, his fighting spirit was also on another level.

maradona wouldn't be able to keep up with the pace of the game. the game is much faster today and defences are much more compact structured with the whole block of defenders moving in direction of the ball.

maradona would have to massively change his training habits and if he did so during his time, he could indeed be the goat today. the talent was there, but he lacked the will and discipline.

 

[Vasilevskiy]

its been a debate for well over a decade now. After Portugal won the Euro, Ronaldo was (said to be) the GOAT. Even just 2 years ago, many had Ronaldo as the goat.

Nows Messi's (team) won, suddenly hes the GOAT, especially after Ronaldo's down year.

Lets revisit this in 5-10 years when the dust settles.

There was a debate because media wanted to have one. Anyone that has seen them knows it's not even close. What just happened on Sunday makes nobody even have the possibility to have a debate.

Messi is the greatest team sport athlete of all time. There is zero question of this, IMO. Gretzky-level dominance, longevity even surpassing Gretzky (he's still probably the best player in the world at 35), silverware beyond Gretzky's, and in a far bigger sport.

There are a few athletes from solo sports - Bolt, Serena Williams, Muhammad Ali, and Woods are the four who come to mind - that can duke it out with him for GOAT of GOATs status.

EDIT: forgot one - Wayde van Niekerk doesn't have the longevity of a Bolt in track, but running sub-10, sub-20, and sub-44 in the 100, 200, 400 is absolutely bonkers. His 400 WR run in 2016 (from lane 8), breaking a record that had stood for two decades and that had been commonly thought as the most secure record in T&F, might be the greatest sporting event I had watched in my life until yesterday's WC final.

Eddy Merckx in cycling too

 

[Vasilevskiy]

No. Anyone who knows anything about football would say it's still Maradona.

Oh, another one of those that lives stuck in the past.
Compare both of their records and you will see it's not even a debate. Maradona is stuck in people memory for two unreal WC. Extremely high peak but Messi has been as high and for years and years.

Messi has been compared to Ronaldo all his career but that has never really made any sense. Thats because Messi doesn't make sense. Messi is like an GOAT level quarterback, so he should be compared with Tom Brady right? But at the same time Messi is one of the best defensive tackles so instead he gets compared to Aaron Donald. Messi gets compared with Ronaldo because they score the same amount of goals, but he actually plays more like a number 10 like Maradona, Ronaldinho etc. Number 10s would be lucky to score half the goals Messi score which is why people instead compare him and Ronaldo to each other. Messi is by FAR the best player ever while Ronaldo is ''only'' one of the greatest goalscorers ever like Gerd Müller, but because of the weird PR campaign Ronaldo has been overrated while Messi probably has been underrated (I know that sounds crazy). Messi has been an impossible blend of legendary creator and goalscorer while Ronaldo was close to a pure Gerd Müller goalscorer, which is absolutely fine and amazing, but the comparison between the 2 made it so Messi was reduced to a goalscorer while Ronaldo got more credit for his creation than he deserved. Any football stat that digs into creation basically shows this every single time that Messi is impossible, he is alot better than different players at what they do which shouldn't happen.

Does this make him the GOAT? Who knows, I think so but I can only compare him to Usain Bolt.

Good post. The debate was there because it made a lot of money for media (I can assure you at least in Spain it was all they talked about). I hate CR and I still can admit he is a top 10 player ever (not talent wise but yes career wise). Messi is the best. Was always the best really since he became 20.

 

[norrisnick]

Oh, another one of those that lives stuck in the past.
Compare both of their records and you will see it's not even a debate. Maradona is stuck in people memory for two unreal WC. Extremely high peak but Messi has been as high and for years and years.

One. It's not even two.

 

[ElLeetch]

No. And soccer isn't even a real sport.

 

[Tender Rip]

If Diego was better than Messi, Lemieux was better than Gretzky.

Take the right 5 year period and I would agree on both accounts. Their peaks, also considering who they played for and what they had to carry… just insane.

But full careers… nah.

 

[hamzarocks]

How old are you? I really hope you mean Brazilian Ronaldo, CR7 is barely top 10 on the all time list. The goat debate is realistically Maradona/Pelé/Messi, even though Brazilian Ronaldo might have had the best peak of all.







CR7 is the 4th best player all time.

 

[norrisnick]

If Diego was better than Messi, Lemieux was better than Gretzky.

Take the right 5 year period and I would agree on both accounts. Their peaks, also considering who they played for and what they had to carry… just insane.

But full careers… nah.

The better analogy would be Rocket Richard. It's all emotions with Maradona.

 

[Icarium]

And soccer isn't even a real sport.

Why do so many hockey fans have an inferiority complex in regards to soccer? No one forces you to like it but it's most certainly a "real" sport.

 

[Rufus T Firefly]

Just going to throw another obscure name into the ring for GOAT of sports, just due to sheer dominance: Hakuhō Shō - Wikipedia

Very interesting athlete, albeit in a niche sport. I've never watched sumo, but based on everything I've read on this person, he should be in contention for his sheer dominance over his peers and historically. Interesting read if you like sports in general.

And I think sheer dominance over peers and historically should be the deciding factor here. Messi has 7/15 Ballon D'Or wins (first in 2009, last in 2021 for the most ever), and 5 fifth place finishes. CR7 has 5/15 and 6 fifth place finishes (first in 2008, last in 2017 for 2nd most ever).

Perhaps it's just unlucky that Messi played in the same era as CR7 and Gretzky and Lemieux played in slightly different ones, but still, Gretzky had 8 Hart wins in a row, and a total of 9. No one touched Gretzky in his era and no one is likely to touch most of his big records ever (except maybe Ovi and the goals record).

I don't know, just seems odd to call Messi the GOAT of sports, when it has long been a two horse race with CR7 and Messi just in this generation, not to mention also factoring in Pele and Maradonna. The fact that Gretzky has more assists than anyone else has points just floors me every time I see it.

 

[MrOT]

In my opinion the most dominant athletes in their respective sport:
1. Karelin, wrestling
2. Usain Bolt, track and field
3. Michael Jordan, basketball
4. Tiger Woods, golf
5. Roger Federer, Tennis
6. Michael Phelps, swimming
7. Wayne Gretzky, hockey
8. Jan-Ove Waldner, table tennis
9. Sergei Bobka, pole jump
10. Babe Ruth, baseball

 

[pcruz]

Wasn't Usain Bolt like the undisputed fastest man in both 100m and 200m for like 3 straight Olympics something previously done by Jesse Owens and Carl Lewis in probably the most accessible sport to anyone in the world, that is solely determined by yourself with no team influence (unless you include his dominent relay performances). I think if we are talking about GOAT of all sports I'd lean into that. Messi never dominated his field to that level, he was trading blows with Ronaldo at Club level for years. Jordan dominated his sport but its not as accessable as soccer or track, and while Gretzky owned his sport again its niche.

If we are talking individual athletes and Olympians, then there is absolutely 0 argument for Messi, Wayne, Jordan or any of these others over:

Phelps
Ledecky
Bolt to a lesser extent.

 

[J bo Jeans]

Have other players been more dominant in their respective sports?
Of course, Gretzky and Tiger to name a few.

Is there a sport with a larger talent pool of athletes than soccer?
No, and its not even close.

I think being the GOAT in soccer is by far the hardest GOAT to be. Fact is just by virtue of the billion+ talent pool the absolute best athletes in the world are for the most part soccer players.

 

[Foppberg]

I don’t know why so many people, mostly American/Canadians, dump on football and act like it’s not even a real sport. The last time I watched “footie” was 4 years ago but this years WC final was an unbelievable match. Probably the best sports game I’ve ever watched.

 

[amnesiac]

How old are you? I really hope you mean Brazilian Ronaldo, CR7 is barely top 10 on the all time list. The goat debate is realistically Maradona/Pelé/Messi, even though Brazilian Ronaldo might have had the best peak of all.

Yeah no.... Not even close.

 

[Rufus T Firefly]

In my opinion the most dominant athletes in their respective sport:
1. Karelin, wrestling
2. Usain Bolt, track and field
3. Michael Jordan, basketball
4. Tiger Woods, golf
5. Roger Federer, Tennis
6. Michael Phelps, swimming
7. Wayne Gretzky, hockey
8. Jan-Ove Waldner, table tennis
9. Sergei Bobka, pole jump
10. Babe Ruth, baseball

Jesus, the results Karelin has are just insane! 887 wins, 2 losses

 

[Peeri]

For me it's Alexandr Karelin. When I was a kid he was the first man to ever really give that WOW factor. Later on when I did some reading on him I only realized how dominant he really was.

 

[um]

Why do so many hockey fans have an inferiority complex in regards to soccer? No one forces you to like it but it's most certainly a "real" sport.

I've heard people of all fandoms say dumb shit like that about other sports, I don't think it's a hockey fan thing.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I wouldn't necessarily call Track the most accessible sport in the world. Yes, everyone runs and thus being the fastest man in the world is a very cool title but Track itself is a bit more specialized. Like you don't just wake up one more running and you're qualifying for the 100 meters in the Olympics. There is a reason Track stars tend to be centered around the same few places historically.

 

[SwedishFire]

Federer as the #2 athlete all time is a joke considering he's #3 in his own sport. He got to pile up GS in a terrible era with zero competition but still Nadal and Djokovic both have more GS, more masters 1000, both have a winning h2h record vs Federer, both have completed the double career grand slam which he hasn't, both have completed the surface slam which he hasn't, Djokovic has more weeks at #1, Nadal has the career golden slam, etc. Absolutely zero argument for Federer over either one of them.

I have lost tennis a bit, last time I followed did federer own everything, and even git better at older age.

I rank Maradona ahead of Messi.Messi had better wotk ethic

 

[SwedishFire]

Lol he’s not even the goat soccer player. He’s top 4 among Maradona (my personal goat), Pelé and Ronaldo Phenomeno. Jordan is the team sport’s GOAT.

Who is phebomeno??

 

[norrisnick]

Who is phebomeno??

The Brazilian Ronaldo.