Has Messi surpassed Gretzky/Jordan and others as the GOAT for all sports?

[KCC]

No clue but I'm going to assume he played on a powerhouse team with an unlimited budget over the years like a lot of the soccer greats did. lol

 

[Isi]

As an American, I have never heard of Donald Bradman before this thread. And I hate to break it to you guys, but those stats are made up. There's no way one player was that much better than everyone else in history. Frankly, I doubt that this person ever really existed.

I dont understand Cricket at all. his stats are more dominant than Gretzky's?

A great test batsman is generally considered to be one who has an average of 50 per innings.

Bradman had an average of 99.94.

The next best (to play a decent amount of innings) is on 61.87. So, 60% of Bradman's totals.

If Gretzky had a ppg where the next highest was 60% of his total, we'd be talking about Gretzky on 2.6 ppg or so. Even ruling out Mario as a fellow freak and taking it down to Bossy, Gretzky would need to be on 2.1 to be a similar distance ahead.

I dunno whether career adjusted scoring changes Bradman's dominance much, but the raw numbers are freaky. Gretzky's raw numbers are also freaky, but Bradman marches a definite amount beyond, and not just because there's no Lemieux in cricket.

well one way to think of Bradman's dominance over his peers is this:

In cricket, there's no real consensus on who the second greatest batsman to Bradman is, although Sachin Tendaulkar is probably the club-house leader thanks to his longevity (in a world without Bradman, Tendaulker would be kind of the Gretzky equivalent in cricket as his career aggregate stats over-shadow everyone else's). But one of the guys who has their name thrown out every now and then is Sir Viv Richards. And Viv Richards ended up with a test batting average of 50.24......which is closer to one of the people considered the worst batsman of all time in Chris Martin (2.36) than to Bradman's 99.94 average. Now Viv went on a couple years too long and some of his legacy is built around his aura and his feats in other forms of cricket, but take Mario or McDavid or Crosby and imagine their career PPG average being closer to a long serving fourth line face puncher than to Gretzky, instead of being as close to as it is in Mario's case.

The Highest Average after X Innings and Highest Aggregate after Playing X Innings charts help tells some of the story. Bradman's career ended after his 80th innings, with an average of 99.94 and having scored 6996 career runs. The person with the best average after 81 innings is Herbert Sutcliffe, who had an average of 61.85 and 4453 career runs. The person with the most runs after 81 innings is Everton Weekes who had 4455 runs at an average of 58.62. Given Bradman fall just short of the 7000 runs mark, the fastest player to 7000 career runs chart also tells some of the story, and that's held by Steve Smith who recently accomplished that feat. He did that in 126 innings at an average of 62.96. This chart helps give you an idea of how fairly similar "the second best" is in cricket. They're averaging between 40 to 60, and they're all getting to that 7000 mark in fairly similar times, from people who played against Bradman (W R Hammond) to modern players (Smith and Kohli). Indeed, Steve Smith smoked the rest of them in getting to 7000 runs....and Don Bradman would have almost certainly got there in his 81st inning.

The first quote sums it up. Bradman makes no logical sense. His career went for 20 years (some years missed due to War and ill health) so it wasn't a fluke (like Adam Voges short test career), he benefited from playing in his era no more than Hammond and George Headley did and they didn't get near him (unlike Lemieux). It's just nuts.

 

[ijuka]

Pretty easily, if we compare to Gretzky and Jordan.

Jordan - basketball. American player in a sport where the only competitive nation is America. Yawn.

Gretzky - hockey, a niche sport. A Candian player where Canadian players have dominated since the dawn of time. Yawn.

Messi's from Argentina, which is a strong country but hardly long-term dominant. The international level of competition is much greater as is the talent pool. Even though I think that football is a snorefest of a sport to watch and can barely sit through 90 minutes of it about once a year, when it comes to athletic achievements this one's not close.

 

[Signupnow]

Lol Madrid didn't get knocked out by Lyon 4 years in a row. The 4 seasons prior to Ronaldo's arrival it was Liverpool, Roma, Bayern and Arsenal. Madrid however did get knocked out by Lyon in Ronaldo's first season. I've watched every Madrid game for the last 30 years so trust me, I know. I never said Ronaldo "glided in to a GOAT side", I said he played on a stacked team which is 100% true. The bolded is the problem with Ronaldo fans. Benzema, Bale, Modric, Casemiro, Marcelo, Ramos, Varane, Carvajal, Isco (so basically the whole team) were all there for every UCL Ronaldo won and they all made key contributions. If you go back and actually watch the games you'll see Ronaldo choked in the 2014, 2016, 2018 UCL semi finals and finals and was bailed out.

True.
Big-spending Real Madrid failed to qualify for the Champions League quarter-finals for the sixth straight season when Olympique Lyon dumped the Spaniards out 2-1 on aggregate on Wednesday.

However before he came there it ws grim. I also watched basically every game and I would say the most cluch player is Ramos who deserves to have his forehead patented. But before the team you mentioned was assembled by players who came and went there was a time when real Madrid was good before they were great. Even modric was seen as the worst purchase of the decade so it was a team who fought hard to come together. And many left and came during that time such as Alonzo, di Maria, ozil the bench warmer kaka.i would say the cord of Madrids success has been Marcello, ramos, Ronaldo (yeah he may not have been the best In the very final however they wouldn't be there without him) modric kroos and benzema. Varande and casemiro also good player of course but before they had that team there was like a 6 year span when they hadn't gotten it together. And during that time Ronaldo kept shit afloat.

 

[Ben White]

Pretty easily, if we compare to Gretzky and Jordan.

Jordan - basketball. American player in a sport where the only competitive nation is America. Yawn.

Gretzky - hockey, a niche sport. A Candian player where Canadian players have dominated since the dawn of time. Yawn.

Messi's from Argentina, which is a strong country but hardly long-term dominant. The international level of competition is much greater as is the talent pool. Even though I think that football is a snorefest of a sport to watch and can barely sit through 90 minutes of it about once a year, when it comes to athletic achievements this one's not close.

Only problem is that he’s not even the greatest soccer player

 

[TBF1972]

Only problem is that he’s not even the greatest soccer player

by your own opinion. in my book he is.

he is clearly better than ronaldo and as they played at the same time and there were so many stats and arguments presented in this thread alone, to consider it a fact.

he is clearly better than maradona by simply being excellent for already 7 more years than maradona ever did and he still goes strong. if we talk most talented player, i can agree with maradona having more natural talent than messi. but he didn't enough with it in games to be called a better player. the arguments for maradona are mostly based on his myth among his fans (argentina and napoli). but he can't keep up with actual results and part of it was his lack of dedication to training and his life style.

as stated before it's difficult to compare pele to the others as he played in an area, where the game - world cup aside - wasn't a global game. still the fact, that pele only played one game in his last world cup win, tells us that his prime didn't last as long as messi's.

 

[Ben White]

by your own opinion. in my book he is.

he is clearly better than ronaldo and as they played at the same time and there were so many stats and arguments presented in this thread alone, to consider it a fact.

he is clearly better than maradona by simply being excellent for already 7 more years than maradona ever did and he still goes strong. if we talk most talented player, i can agree with maradona having more natural talent than messi. but he didn't enough with it in games to be called a better player. the arguments for maradona are mostly based on his myth among his fans (argentina and napoli). but he can't keep up with actual results and part of it was his lack of dedication to training and his life style.

as stated before it's difficult to compare pele to the others as he played in an area, where the game - world cup aside - wasn't a global game. still the fact, that pele only played one game in his last world cup win, tells us that his prime didn't last as long as messi's.

Since Maradona proved his peak level to be clearly (close but clearly) above Messi’s by taking a bottom feeder in Napoli to the league title two years in a row in what was the NHL of soccer at the time whilst Messi has had the luxury of playing on a ridiculously stacked team in an uneven league for his entire career (except for the last few years a there he hasn’t been that great has he?) that has built their entire system around him. + what Maradona did in ‘86 World Cup is far superior to anything Messi has ever done on the international stage. I’m pissed Argentina won now because that means Messi will unrightfully be called the GOAT by many.

 

[Ben White]

I always love how passionate people get over a completely unanswerable question. Trying to compare players from different sports is sort of silly

I’m mostly pissed that “he’s not even the goat soccer player” is not an option

 

[Ben White]

Of the options above
1. Jordan (the undisputed Goat basketball player)
2. Gretzky (the consensus but rivalled GOAT hockey player)
3. Messi (not the goat soccer player)

 

[TBF1972]

Since Maradona proved his peak level to be clearly (close but clearly) above Messi’s by taking a bottom feeder in Napoli to the league title two years in a row in what was the NHL of soccer at the time whilst Messi has had the luxury of playing on a ridiculously stacked team in an uneven league for his entire career (except for the last few years a there he hasn’t been that great has he?) that has built their entire system around him. + what Maradona did in ‘86 World Cup is far superior to anything Messi has ever done on the international stage. I’m pissed Argentina won now because that means Messi will unrightfully be called the GOAT by many.

so team achievements and your glorified memories of maradona.

86 world cup was partially decided by an illegal hands goal. i am not sure, if we should use it as a pro argument for maradona.

 

[Ben White]

so team achievements and your glorified memories of maradona.

86 world cup was partially decided by an illegal hands goal. i am not sure, if we should use it as a pro argument for maradona.

Good you bring it up. We absolutely should, that hand goal story followed by the greatest goal ever scored in soccer is part of that which Maradona has and Messi hasn’t

 

[psycat]

Best football player of all time is Brazilian Ronaldo fwiw, Messi is indeed the greatest.

 

[Ben White]

Best football player of all time is Brazilian Ronaldo fwiw, Messi is indeed the greatest.

Ronaldo phenomeno might be the best, Maradona the greatest

 

[TBF1972]

Good you bring it up. We absolutely should, that hand goal story followed by the greatest goal ever scored in soccer is part of that which Maradona has and Messi hasn’t

the hands goal was the setup for the best goal in a world cup. but would maradona still score the second one without the first, which completely changed the dynamic of this game? it's totally possible argentina loses the quarter final match against england without the hands goal and then maradona has two italian league titles and nothing else.

 

[Ben White]

the hands goal was the setup for the best goal in a world cup. but would maradona still score the second one without the first, which completely changed the dynamic of this game? it's totally possible argentina loses the quarter final match against england without the hands goal and then maradona has two italian league titles and nothing else.

Boring take. Enjoy the legend and immortal character of Maradona instead.

 

[93LEAFS]

Wasn't Usain Bolt like the undisputed fastest man in both 100m and 200m for like 3 straight Olympics something previously done by Jesse Owens and Carl Lewis in probably the most accessible sport to anyone in the world, that is solely determined by yourself with no team influence (unless you include his dominent relay performances). I think if we are talking about GOAT of all sports I'd lean into that. Messi never dominated his field to that level, he was trading blows with Ronaldo at Club level for years. Jordan dominated his sport but its not as accessable as soccer or track, and while Gretzky owned his sport again its niche.

 

[General Fanager]

Tiger Woods needs to be a much bigger part of this thread.

Most dominant athlete ever.

 

[MrOT]

The wrestler Karelin was the most dominant in any sport in history

 

[Voight]

fair enough, Im just saying it is a debate, and may always will be. Again, you have to wait for careers to be over, in my opinion. Too much recency bias to talk about it now.

Ronaldo's career is essentially over at this point. Hell, he was literally kicked off his club team and is likely going to play in the Saudi league just for the money.

Yes, he'll still play and won't retire, but since he won his last Ballon d'Or Messi has won two. His days of dominating are over.

 

[Rexor]

Since Maradona proved his peak level to be clearly (close but clearly) above Messi’s by taking a bottom feeder in Napoli to the league title two years in a row in what was the NHL of soccer at the time whilst Messi has had the luxury of playing on a ridiculously stacked team in an uneven league for his entire career (except for the last few years a there he hasn’t been that great has he?) that has built their entire system around him. + what Maradona did in ‘86 World Cup is far superior to anything Messi has ever done on the international stage. I’m pissed Argentina won now because that means Messi will unrightfully be called the GOAT by many.

Maradona's peak was clearly above Messi? Maradona scored 115 goals in 259 games during his 7 years with Napoli. From 2009 to 2016 with Barcelona, Messi scored 373 goals in 370 games, while just like Maradona, not being a pure goal scorer and setting up tons of goals for his teammates. Sure, Maradona was playing in a lower scoring league with a worse team but still, Messi more than doubles his goal/per game totals. It's a bigger statistical dominance than Gretzky has over the likes of Jágr, Crosby or McDavid.

And if your definition of a GOAT's peak ability is being super flashy with the ball, having an incredible game here and there in a span of a few seasons, and possessing a strange, supernatural charisma on the pitch, why not throw in someone like Ronaldinho into the discussion? I actually think he would've been a better comparison to Diego, had his prime not been so short.

Anyway, Maradona playing for a lesser side is a strange argument. How do you know Messi wouldn't have led Napoli as far as Maradona, or even farther? And how do you know Maradona would have made it in Barca in Messi's place? Would he have enough patience, discipline and unselfishness to buy into their system? His short stint in Barca wasn't exactly spectacular, as we know.

Maradona's myth stems mainly from one incredible tournament in 1986, and particularly from his two cheat-mode goals (pun intended) against England. And also from his charismatic personality, that's the one area where he was clearly above Messi.

 

[Ben White]

(im not including women)

Jordan.... I mean, he wouldve had 8 championships AND 8 MVPs in 8 years. Lets not kid ourselves
Gretzky.... his records speak for themselves
Brady..... I believe QB to be the toughest position in all sport. He was the best, no question.
Messi/Ronaldo.... I think its still a debate, people were saying Ronaldo was the GOAT just 2 years ago . Mbappe will pass both barring injury, though
Ruth.... Best hitter ever, maybe the hardest "thing" to do in sports, and pitched quite well too
Woods/Nicklaus.... take your pick. They both dominated a sport where you face hundreds.
Djokovic.... say what you want about the guy, hes the greatest ever, and isnt close to being done.
Richie McCaw..... dont know enough about the sport, but if youre said to be the GOAT off rugby, then youre one HELL of an athlete.

How old are you? I really hope you mean Brazilian Ronaldo, CR7 is barely top 10 on the all time list. The goat debate is realistically Maradona/Pelé/Messi, even though Brazilian Ronaldo might have had the best peak of all.

 

[Ben White]

Maradona's peak was clearly above Messi? Maradona scored 115 goals in his 7 years with Napoli. From 2009 to 2016 with Barcelona, Messi scored 373 goals, while just like Maradona, not being a pure goal scorer and setting up tons of goals for his teammates. Sure, Maradona was playing in a lower scoring league with a worse team but still, Messi more than triples his goal totals. It's a much bigger statistical dominance than Gretzky has over the likes of Jágr, Crosby or McDavid.

And if your definition of a GOAT's peak ability is being super flashy with the ball, having an incredible game here and there in a span of a few seasons, and possessing a strange, supernatural charisma on the pitch, why not throw in someone like Ronaldinho into the discussion? I actually think he would've been a better comparison to Diego, had his prime been not so short.

Anyway, Maradona playing for a lesser side is a strange argument. How do you know Messi wouldn't have led Napoli as far as Maradona, or even farther? And how do you know Maradona would have made it in Barca in Messi's place? Would he have enough patience, discipline and unselfishness to buy into their system. His short stint in Barca wasn't exactly spectacular, as we know.

Maradona's myth stems mainly from one incredible tournament in 1986, and particularly from his two cheat-mode goals (pun intended) against England. And also from his charismatic personality, that's the one area where he was clearly above Messi.

Not to mention that defenders were allowed to kick down forwards without a foul back then and that the Italian league was super defence oriented and much more even between the top like 6 teams, not two dominant power houses in a generally uneven league in an era where you can’t touch attackers without a foul and a much more offence oriented/less defensively disciplined era. No way Messi does what Maradona did on that Napoli team or at that Argentina squad.

Look, you can’t throw around contextless stats to prove anything in soccer the way you can (at least to some extent) in the NHL. It’s difficult enough to compare different eras inside one league and one hockey culture, but at least there are tools to at least get closer to the truth, but to compare soccer players from different eras in different leagues, countries, systems, cultures is much more context and eye test based. Goal totals have little to do with it.

 

[John Mandalorian]

Pretty easily, if we compare to Gretzky and Jordan.

Jordan - basketball. American player in a sport where the only competitive nation is America. Yawn.

Gretzky - hockey, a niche sport. A Candian player where Canadian players have dominated since the dawn of time. Yawn.

Messi's from Argentina, which is a strong country but hardly long-term dominant. The international level of competition is much greater as is the talent pool. Even though I think that football is a snorefest of a sport to watch and can barely sit through 90 minutes of it about once a year, when it comes to athletic achievements this one's not close.

If you’re invoking the global aspects of the sports, then why are you overlooking Pele when the World Cup is the accentuation of soccer/football as a global sport?

4 world cups is a lot.

 

[Rexor]

Not to mention that defenders were allowed to kick down forwards without a foul back then and that the Italian league was super defence oriented and much more even between the top like 6 teams, not two dominant power houses in a generally uneven league in an era where you can’t touch attackers without a foul and a much more offence oriented/less defensively disciplined era. No way Messi does what Maradona did on that Napoli team or at that Argentina squad.

It's the same argument you can use against Gretzky, and it leads as nowhere. Football players today are much faster and more explosive than in the 1980's, have to follow rigorous diet and training routines, drug tests are ubiquitous. How would have Maradona coped with this?

 

[BradyTkachucky]

Pele was better.