Has Messi surpassed Gretzky/Jordan and others as the GOAT for all sports?
- Thread starter TheStatican
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GOAT of soccer is a tougher feat but Messi isn't the GOAT. Or is definitely not the clear cut favorite Gretzky or Jordan would be in their respective sports.
norrisnick
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WarriorofTime
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If tennis was only played on clay in 5 set matches, Nadal would be the most dominant athlete ever. It’s too bad that there’s only 1 tournament a year where that’s a thing.
Djokovic and Federer both have him beat on hard courts and grass.
As great as Messi has been over his career, it can't be forgotten that his entire career has had him play in front of a midfield consisting of:
Ronaldinho - Deco - Van Bronkhorst - Xavi - Iniesta - Busquets - Fabregas
While in Barcelona, where he accumulated almost all of his accolades.
That 91 goal year is just gross, though I actually thought Messi was a better overall player when he played off the right more and played more of a facilitator role with Neymar, Suarez.
Ronaldinho - Deco - Van Bronkhorst - Xavi - Iniesta - Busquets - Fabregas
While in Barcelona, where he accumulated almost all of his accolades.
That 91 goal year is just gross, though I actually thought Messi was a better overall player when he played off the right more and played more of a facilitator role with Neymar, Suarez.
Yeah and if I start my own sports with the turds in my neighborhood which is like the equivalent to soccer/hockey and I dominate these farmers. Will you put me up there with Jordan and Messi and tiger woods just because I was ahead of my peers? When people outside of Canada turn on hockey they get the same feeling you get when you watch field hockey somewhere in a barn in Russia.
KoozNetsOff 92
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What a weak "argument". Great players play on great teams. CR7 for example was on an absolutely stacked Madrid team that just won the la liga/UCL double within 4 years of him leaving. Brazil won the 1962 world cup with Pele only playing 1 game (part of the reason why his "3x world champ" legend is bs).
Ronaldinho played LW in barcas 4-3-3, not in midfield. Also, him and Deco left barca in the summer of 2008 so Messi only played with them before the age of 21 (so basically none of his prime). Van bronkhorst played LB for Barca, not in midfield. He left barca in the summer of 2007 and wasn't some star player anyways. Fabregas was in barca for 3 years and was basically a bench warmer. Xavi and Iniesta ok but what exactly were Xavi and Iniesta doing before Messi showed up? They ever win the UCL? Ever even make the final? They were no names. But anyways, Xavi left barca in 2015 and Iniesta left in 2018. Since 2018 Messi has still won 2 ballon d'ors, European golden boot, 3x la liga top scorer, world cup golden ball, world cup silver boot, copa America golden ball, copa america golden boot, set the record for most assists in a la liga season, etc, etc. And this is obviously past his peak Messi. Xavi and Iniesta were great but Messi would have succeeded with anyone.
KoozNetsOff 92
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Federer as the #2 athlete all time is a joke considering he's #3 in his own sport. He got to pile up GS in a terrible era with zero competition but still Nadal and Djokovic both have more GS, more masters 1000, both have a winning h2h record vs Federer, both have completed the double career grand slam which he hasn't, both have completed the surface slam which he hasn't, Djokovic has more weeks at #1, Nadal has the career golden slam, etc. Absolutely zero argument for Federer over either one of them.
WarriorofTime
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At the time when Ronaldo joined real Madrid had just rehauled their entire team and had gotten kicked out 4 year straight by lyon in championship league, can you believe it. It was at the time when Barcelona had the best team ever assembled so we can't really claim what you say. Ronaldo is a big contribution to as why real Madrid became what they were today. You can say that real has many great players and it's true. Modric, Ramos (being perhaps the most important figure / leader) Tony kroos among others. But to say that Ronaldo glided in on a goat side is wrong. He was the one man who was consistent during a decade that made real Madrid a force.
Last champions league was a bit of a fluke, it's just. Real Madrid don't lose finals.
Is that a serious question?
Xavi and Iniesta, the 2 main drivers of Euro 2008, WC 2010, Euro 2012 champions?
While I agree that Real Madrid was stacked when Ronaldo was there, the Man Utd team he won a CL with wasn't anywhere near the level of either Barcelona or RM.
He's irrelevant to the conversation though.
For what it's worth, while I think CR7 had some seasons where he was clearly superior to Messi, I have always been of the opinion that Messi is the better team player and infinitely more talented. Individually, Ronaldo had quite a few attributes that were far superior to Messi as well, namely shooting from distance and aerially, but his ego just rubbed me the wrong way.
For the record, Messi and Ronaldo won a few Ballon D'Or that neither deserved.
Schneider, Robben, Xavi, Iniesta all deserved a much better fate. Lewa and Zlatan got screwed as well by the 2 big names.
But this is all completely irrelevant.
The question is whether Messi has surpassed Wayne, Jordan and others as the best all time team player.
Ignoring the Cricket player who is like 1000% better than the next guy on the list, Jordan went to 6 NBA finals and won, LeBron went to 7 straight NBA finals on teams that ranged from amazing to dreadful.
Wayne holds something like 50 NHL offensive records.
Those guys not only won with their respective clubs, but they also did it multiple times with their nations, whereas Messi has always been very underwhelming for Argentina. In fact, after getting knocked out of the 2018 World Cup, he faced extreme criticism back home and was called "Catalan" and not Argentinian at all.
Dr John Carlson
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Lots of arguments for who had the best career, best prime, etc.
But the athlete who was most dominant over his peers was Tiger Woods.
But the athlete who was most dominant over his peers was Tiger Woods.
Tiger is still not the all time leader in Majors won.
Mike Trout honestly has a much better argument for most dominant team athlete in recent history.
Aashir Mallik
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Of course they can, from my viewings, people just struggle to compare them due to their different critical stats. Comparing a goalie to a forward and a lesser extent defencemen to forward always has the argument turn out with one side saying it’s not fair or comparing them is like comparing apples to oranges
now i understand the fascination with golf and tiger woods shooting into the small hole.Yes, but Messi has a bigger net to shoot at. If Gretzky had soccer-sized nets to shoot at he'd have scored way more.
Not even remotely close, he had a good tournament thats it, did he score 2 a game and score 3+ in the final game? Again not even close
No, but he did get 5 penalties in 7 games
Not to take anything away from Messi in this tournament, he was excellent for Argentina overall.
How he didn't get double yellow against Holland, I still don't know, but there's no point in re-hashing some of the more eyebrow-raising officiating decisions, even with VAR.
It is funny that Argentina relied so heavily on Messi and Di Maria though, considering that they're no spring chickens.
face reality. messi was always the better player. you just fell for the hype machine.
As others have pointed out, great soccer players tend to be on great teams but ironically, you can use the same argument against Gretzky who was playing for the stacked 1980's Oilers with Coffey, Kurri and Messier during his prime. Once he left them, he would never win a single Cup again.
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It's really hard to win the World Cup of soccer. Much harder than to win a similar tournament in hockey if one happens to be Canadian, or as an American who competes in basketball. In Gretzky's days, which country was a realistic competition for Canada? Only the Soviet Union. And then maybe Sweden, Finland, USA and Czechoslovakia as dark horses. Whereas in soccer, there are always at least 7 or 8 powerhouse teams that have everything necessary to win it all, and then about 10 or 12 other teams that most likely will not win but are absolutely capable to beat any powerhouse in a single elimination game. Much stiffer competition.
Ben White
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Lol he’s not even the goat soccer player. He’s top 4 among Maradona (my personal goat), Pelé and Ronaldo Phenomeno. Jordan is the team sport’s GOAT.
KoozNetsOff 92
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Lol Madrid didn't get knocked out by Lyon 4 years in a row. The 4 seasons prior to Ronaldo's arrival it was Liverpool, Roma, Bayern and Arsenal. Madrid however did get knocked out by Lyon in Ronaldo's first season. I've watched every Madrid game for the last 30 years so trust me, I know. I never said Ronaldo "glided in to a GOAT side", I said he played on a stacked team which is 100% true. The bolded is the problem with Ronaldo fans. Benzema, Bale, Modric, Casemiro, Marcelo, Ramos, Varane, Carvajal, Isco (so basically the whole team) were all there for every UCL Ronaldo won and they all made key contributions. If you go back and actually watch the games you'll see Ronaldo choked in the 2014, 2016, 2018 UCL semi finals and finals and was bailed out.
