Value of: Hartnell to Leafs

[buttman*]

its not logic, b/c you're cherry picking the part of the conversation that suits you and dismissing everything else...or you know, the same thing you're accusing everyone else of...

CBJ fans have stated that yes, in June they were trying to offload him in anyway possible, but once buying out Boll and Tyutin, that became less of a need, and there haven't been articles saying they're still trying to. Some blurbs here and there that if someone asks, they'd listen, but nothing that they're still trying to trade him.

and as far as the "tried to trade him with the 3rd OA", no one has mentioned what they were offering that package up for. Could have been 1OA, maybe RNH and a 1st, maybe for Cam Ward...there has been literally NO SUBSTANTIAL INFORMATION to say what that was for. So you can't say no one wanted him b/c you are only cherry picking the side that no one dealt for him.

so yes, it is disingenuous...

and you're picking the part of the conversation that suits you. Including the part where he was a healthy scratch this year.

 

[Fro]

and you're picking the part of the conversation that suits you. Including the part where he was a healthy scratch this year.

no i haven't...I haven't advocated for or against trading him...so that is false...I've stated that there are holes in your argument and you refuse to come off them, while stating the reality since the articles you've posted.

He's been scratched for taking bad penalties, sure...he does that...its part of what you get with him. He sits for a couple of games and then plays well...wash rinse repeat...

he's also good for 20g 50p almost like clockwork. oh and hey he had that spell this past year where he had that major goal milestone and got stone hands while forgetting how to score, but once he did, got back on normal pace.

anything else you'd like to know that you aren't acknowledging?

 

[Menzinger]

The Leafs should be trying to clear out vets to give spots for youth, not bringing in more older guys.

 

[DANTHEMAN1967]

The Leafs should be trying to clear out vets to give spots for youth, not bringing in more older guys.

Exactly!

 

[cslebn]

and you're picking the part of the conversation that suits you. Including the part where he was a healthy scratch this year.

You know basically everyone was a healthy scratch on the blue jackets at some point last year right?

You saw where we finished 27th right?

 

[cslebn]

and why he never will be.

Can you do some research for me? I remember an article stating jarmo was asking too much for Hartnell and valued him to highly when trying to move him at the trade deadline.

 

[WhiteWings*]

Hartnell would waive his NTC only for contender and Toronto isn't it.

 

[major major]

So the dozen or so articles I linked to mean nothing but your speculation is fact?

No, I'm very familiar. I read 'em all back in the day. They just don't say what you think they say.

There's a difference between a player who might have to be moved to make salary space, and a negative value player that you don't want to pay for. Hartnell was briefly the former, but is not the latter. Heck, Brandon Saad was once the former (in Chicago), and is obviously not negative value.

 

[Jackets16]

Meh, don't see a suitable deal here. Toronto has an abundance of forwards not impact defenseman like Columbus would need.

Why does Columbus need impact defensemen?

 

[major major]

I wouldn't say "ingenious" I would say 'obvious'. The Jackets are still up against the cap once they add a couple players to fill out the roster. Hartnell is still 34, still signed for too long and still has a NMC which FORCES protection in the upcoming expansion draft. Those are all fact. None of which have changed. Hartnell has negative value in my opinion and your unbridled love for all things Jackets won't change that. On the plus side -- he has more value than David Clarkson.

Mighty ambitious trying to explain to Jackets fans their own facts.

The Jackets have a full roster, and they're definitely under the cap.

Three years is too long? For a guy who has scored 110 pts in the last two years, more than any Leaf?

And no, as we've already explained, the NMC doesn't necessarily matter. He might waive, or the Jackets just might not mind protecting him (if they're indifferent between the Vegas picks in each case).

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I wouldn't say "ingenious" I would say 'obvious'. The Jackets are still up against the cap once they add a couple players to fill out the roster. Hartnell is still 34, still signed for too long and still has a NMC which FORCES protection in the upcoming expansion draft. Those are all fact. None of which have changed. Hartnell has negative value in my opinion and your unbridled love for all things Jackets won't change that. On the plus side -- he has more value than David Clarkson.

Above you argue your facts against someone else's conjecture. A handful of posts later and you've changed your tune.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

I wouldn't say "ingenious" I would say 'obvious'. The Jackets are still up against the cap once they add a couple players to fill out the roster. Hartnell is still 34, still signed for too long and still has a NMC which FORCES protection in the upcoming expansion draft. Those are all fact. None of which have changed. Hartnell has negative value in my opinion and your unbridled love for all things Jackets won't change that. On the plus side -- he has more value than David Clarkson.

You need to actually read this and any other Hartnell thread. In this thread, the OP a Leafs fan says he wants Hartnell and what would Columbus want for him? The same is true for the thread where a Habs fan asks the very same question.

I don't believe you will find a single thread started after July 1st where a Columbus fan is saying they want to trade Hartnell. I think you'll find the Columbus responses consistent. We want to keep Hartnell and have no interest in giving him away.

If you don't want him, then tell Leafs fans to stop asking the price to acquire him.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

No interest from the Leafs, even Lupul for Hartnell wouldn't work due to the extra year on Hartnell.

Are you kidding if the jackets are dumb enough to do that you do it

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Besides this being terrible for the Leafs when considering what we should be doing (and Hartnells questionable future.. Will he be a healthy 5m+ scratch for the last few years?)

How about the Leafs have no cap space? How do we fit him in?

This makes no damn sense for the Leafs, and if Jackets fas want to defend their cap dump then we're all in agreement.

No from both sides.

Like I said ideally this takes place next summer when we have nearly 25 million coming off the books not including the bump in the cap and not in including Bozak being exposed or traded because io think that happens

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

The Leafs should be trying to clear out vets to give spots for youth, not bringing in more older guys.

Can't have a bunch of kids you need some vets and all ours are going to be gone by the deadline no matter where we are in the standings

So yes he would fit next summer

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

No, that was two years ago. Hartnell has had 110 pts since then (more than anyone on the Leafs), and a higher scoring rate than any Flyer. Umberger has had 30 pts and is unemployable.

That trade is as one-sided as it gets, it's not a good gauge of value.



He's the right player type, and it would be good value to my mind if he's just a good 3C. I haven't followed him closely, I just know he's tumbled down the rankings for some reason - if he's still a good bottom six F I'd do it.

He's tumbled down the depth chart because since drafting him we brought in the likes of

Mathews
Nylander
Marner
Kapenan
Bracco
Hyman
Soshnikov
Brown
Lindberg

and it just goes on like that, every single one of those guys has top 6 potential with the possible exception of Hynan

This means that Freddy the goat who at one time was s top 10 prospect for us no longer is due to the vast improvement of the prospect pool, it is also why I my attitude towards Vesey was "If he signs cool, if not, cool"

because while He'd be nice to have he's not needed but I digress.

Freddy the goat HAS tumbled down the depth chart but it's because of the vast improvement in in the prospect pool not because he doesn't have the same potential because he does.

 

[Ciao]

So a Leafs' fan wants to trade for a 34-y.o. left winger with 3 years left and a no-movement clause with a $4.75MM cap hit.

Please wake me up when this bad dream is over. Please.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

So a Leafs' fan wants to trade for a 34-y.o. left winger with 3 years left and a no-movement clause with a $4.75MM cap hit.

Please wake me up when this bad dream is over. Please.

I want this team to have a couple productive vets not the garbage we have now

 

[Ciao]

I want this team to have a couple productive vets not the garbage we have now

JVR, Bozak and Komarov can do that job.

Are you the guy that predicts Bozak will be gone soon -- either traded or exposed and picked in the expansion draft? If so, why not just keep Bozak and protect him instead of picking up Hartnell?

I'm sure Hartnell has had the better career -- as in the past -- but going forward Bozak is the better player, especially with Hartnell approaching the down side of 35 next year. Yesteryear was great, but this is the here and now.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

JVR, Bozak and Komarov can do that job.

Are you the guy that predicts Bozak will be gone soon -- either traded or exposed and picked in the expansion draft? If so, why not just keep Bozak and protect him instead of picking up Hartnell?

I'm sure Hartnell has had the better career -- as in the past -- but going forward Bozak is the better player, especially with Hartnell approaching the down side of 35 next year. Yesteryear was great, but this is the here and now.

Because

Kadri
Reilly
JVR
Gardiner
Komsrov
Andersen
C Carrick

Of those 7 guys who does Bozak get protected over? Nobody we have 1 protection slot open and I am not even sure about that because I think Horton has a NMC she would need to be protected.

But even if he has a NTC now and not a NMC that does not change the fact that Bozak doesn't get protected over any of the guys I listed and in order to protect him you have to assume that the Leafs are not going to bring either a top 4 D or top 6 wing and I just don't believe that.

I think for example that if a guy like Cam Fowler is on the block that not only are the Leafs and ducks talking but that Fowler will eventually end up in Toronto given the relationship between the ducks and Leafs

If that happens Bozak is on the outs.

There are simply higher priorities than protecting Bozak

Hence why I believe he is either traded or wil be exposed and I can't see him not being claimed because he is the perfect 3rd liner

One other thing Bozak has literally never been a better player than Hartnell, ever there is no reason to believe this will change he simply isn't as good even at Hartnell's age

 

[Man Bear Pig]

The Leafs should be trying to clear out vets to give spots for youth, not bringing in more older guys.

This is my feeling as well. People fearing something Oiler-esque apparently haven't looked at the roster. There's enough vets. Useless vets but guys like Michalek,Laich,Polak etc will play their role as leaders. If the young guys fail it won't be because there wasn't any experienced players around.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

This is my feeling as well. People fearing something Oiler-esque apparently haven't looked at the roster. There's enough vets. Useless vets but guys like Michalek,Laich,Polak etc will play their role as leaders. If the young guys fail it won't be because there wasn't any experienced players around.

See that's the thing though, you said it yourself, useless veterans Hartnell isn't useless

Guys like Maichleak Greening Polak Hunwick are

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

HFBoards has this mentality that once you are over 30 you suck and the problem with that is that it's bull ****. it's so bad that we have "fans" that think Freddy the goat, a guy that IF he makes the NHL and it's not a sure thing by ANY stretch is going to be AT BEST a #3 center

Me? I will take the top 6 forward and go into 17-18 with

JVR Mathews Nylander

Hartnell Kadri Marner

OR If Nylander works out as a centre

JVR Mathews Marner

Hartnell Nylander Komarov

Now sure maybe ideally you want Komarov on line but he proved last year he can play top 6 if needed

 

[Ciao]

Well, never say never, but I sure don't see this happening.

I don't think Hartnell is categorically different than the vets the Leafs already have except he's older, as in 34.

Not 30. Not 31. Not 32. Not 33. 34. With a contract with a big cap hit when he's 35. And 36.

The 30+-is-not-over-the-hill comment is an overly broad statement. 30 is as close to 26 as it is to 34. And 30 is as close to 24 as it is to 36, which is Hartnell's final contract year.

Give us a 24-26 yo Scott Hartnell. - Yaay! That has about as much to do with a 30 yo Scott Hartnell as a 34-36 yo one.

We've already been treated to Brian Leetch, Eric Lindros, Ron Francis, and Owen Nolan on the downside of their careers. Some of them were still very nice players, but we've already been there and done that. Thanks.

Let's see how the Shanaplan works now instead.

 

[Ciao]

Because

Kadri
Reilly
JVR
Gardiner
Komsrov
Andersen
C Carrick

Of those 7 guys who does Bozak get protected over? Nobody we have 1 protection slot open and I am not even sure about that because I think Horton has a NMC she would need to be protected.

But even if he has a NTC now and not a NMC that does not change the fact that Bozak doesn't get protected over any of the guys I listed and in order to protect him you have to assume that the Leafs are not going to bring either a top 4 D or top 6 wing and I just don't believe that.

I think for example that if a guy like Cam Fowler is on the block that not only are the Leafs and ducks talking but that Fowler will eventually end up in Toronto given the relationship between the ducks and Leafs

If that happens Bozak is on the outs.

There are simply higher priorities than protecting Bozak

Hence why I believe he is either traded or wil be exposed and I can't see him not being claimed because he is the perfect 3rd liner

One other thing Bozak has literally never been a better player than Hartnell, ever there is no reason to believe this will change he simply isn't as good even at Hartnell's age

Well, Rielly, Gardiner, Carrick and Andersen aren't actually forwards and don't come under the seven-player protection pool for forwards, so I would protect Bozak in the forwards pool over all of them.

Rielly and Gardiner I would protect in the defencemen category. Not so sure about Carrick. It could Marincin or another player yet to be acquired.

Andersen I would protect in the one-player goalie category, unless he turns out to be a complete dud. Then I don't know what I would do.

The "which player would you protect Bozak over" is really one of the dumbest questions I've seen on these boards in quite some time, and that covers a lot of ground.