Hart Trophy Talk: MacKinnon, Malkin, Kucherov the Early Favorites, Scoring at Highest Rates By Far.

[hockeyguy1967]

Lmao you just contradicted yourself.. First you say MacK should have produced the past 3 games because even if the other team is keying in on him McDavid has done it. Then you're like, yeah well McDavid didn't produce because he was being shadowed. Is it Mack's fault Colorado doesn't have someone as good as Drai to carry the load when he's getting "shadowed"? Your credibility in this argument is going dooooownhill.

MacKinnon was never EVER shadowed in his career like McDavid was in last years playoffs. EVER. Not even close. McDavid this year during the regular season is much more shadowed and keyed in on then MacKinnon due to being the best player in the NHL. Yet he still produces.
I have zero doubt in my mind that if McDavid was fighting for a playoff spot like MacKinnon is/was he would be putting up the numbers.
Basically every single thing about MacKinnons season is unsustainable, from his lines on ice shooting percentage which is unheard of to his own which is almost double what it averaged before this year. It really sucks for him and his team that he is now coming back down to earth when his team needs him the most.

 

[Empoleon8771]

As of right now, Marchand leads both ppg (1.34) and p/60 (4.08).

Considering that in the p/60, a significant chunk is PK where it's much more difficult to get points, it's even more impressive. I mean... Marchand 1:49 of PK, McKinnon 0:19, Malkin 0:03, Kucherov 0:00...

I'd really like to not extend my "that's not the way the Hart is actually voted on" to Marchand, please don't make me do this

If Marchand wouldn't have been suspended, I think he'd have a better chance. But that suspension dramatically hurt him, it wasn't just him being injured. Plus, let's be real: no one in the PWHA is ever going to vote for Marchand getting a Hart, at least no one outside of Boston. It's not fair, but his reputation is what his reputation is.

 

[GOilers88]

Because that is the way the award is voted on.

I get that it. What I don't understand is how the voting directly contradicts the parameters of the actual award. Basically it has nothing to do with actually being the most valuable to your team and solely has to do with putting up points on a team that has a ton of skill throughout the lineup that makes the playoffs.

 

[hockeyguy1967]

As of right now, Marchand leads both ppg (1.34) and p/60 (4.08).

Considering that in the p/60, a significant chunk is PK where it's much more difficult to get points, it's even more impressive. I mean... Marchand 1:49 of PK, McKinnon 0:19, Malkin 0:03, Kucherov 0:00...

Gotta play the games to actually win an award. Plus, it does not help that he is playing with two top line players.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I get that it. What I don't understand is how the voting directly contradicts the parameters of the actual award. Basically it has nothing to do with actually being the most valuable to your team and solely has to do with putting up points on a team that makes the playoffs.

You're asking the wrong person for that then

This is the same discussion I had with Bruins fans regarding Marchand and Kings fans regarding Kopitar. The Hart voters have a very predictable trend for how they vote for the Hart, regardless of the actual definition. People freak out too much about "most valuable to his team" part, I think a better definition of the Hart is "the most outstanding player on a team who makes the playoffs", because that's how the award is actually voted on. Does it surprise you? The same people who vote for this didn't know if Ovi was a RW or LW in 2013, so he made both end of season all-star teams in 2 different positions. Most of these people just look at NHL.com and judge players based on how many points they get and what their save% is.

All of those subjective awards are kinda ****ty because of how they vote for them. A lot of the time, it's not a big deal. Bobrovsky winning the Vezina because he leads the league in save%? That's fine, not a problem. But Brent Burns winning the Norris just because he got a bunch of points? You sure about that?

 

[BruinLVGA]

I'd really like to not extend my "that's not the way the Hart is actually voted on" to Marchand, please don't make me do this

If Marchand wouldn't have been suspended, I think he'd have a better chance. But that suspension dramatically hurt him, it wasn't just him being injured. Plus, let's be real: no one in the PWHA is ever going to vote for Marchand getting a Hart, at least no one outside of Boston. It's not fair, but his reputation is what his reputation is.

Oh, I simply mentioned him in the spirit of the title: "highest rate by far."
I thought that it was worth mentioning it. Don't you think that it is absolutely nuts that he has a better p/60 than anyone else when he has 2 minutes of PK and the other big guns don't? PK is like dragging an anchor, re p/60.

 

[GOilers88]

You're asking the wrong person for that then

This is the same discussion I had with Bruins fans regarding Marchand and Kings fans regarding Kopitar. The Hart voters have a very predictable trend for how they vote for the Hart, regardless of the actual definition. People freak out too much about "most valuable to his team" part, I think a better definition of the Hart is "the most outstanding player on a team who makes the playoffs", because that's how the award is actually voted on. Does it surprise you? The same people who vote for this didn't know if Ovi was a RW or LW in 2013, so he made both end of season all-star teams in 2 different positions. Most of these people just look at NHL.com and judge players based on how many points they get and what their save% is.

All of those subjective awards are kinda ****ty because of how they vote for them. A lot of the time, it's not a big deal. Bobrovsky winning the Vezina because he leads the league in save%? That's fine, not a problem. But Brent Burns winning the Norris just because he got a bunch of points? You sure about that?

I agree with all of this. Though I do like the thought of the award actually being for whoever is the most valuable player to their team regardless of making the playoffs of not. When a guy can put up 40+/100+ on a team that still finishes almost last, it just goes to show how amazing he is. But I guess this is just the year where they're going to have to adjust the criteria for the award. Burns never should have had the Norris. The fact that Hedman still doesn't have one is a travesty.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I will say though, generally speaking, the Hart voting overall has been fine I think. Sure, they're really prone to recency bias (Perry in 2011 and Ovi in 2013 are 2 that come to mind) and overrating big market names (Price in 2015? Really?), but I think it's overall fine. None of those guys winning is that egregious, especially when you consider no one had a strong case in years like 2015 or had some sort of issue like in 2013. It's the same with the Vezina, the Vezina is pretty solid overall. I'd probably argue that the Vezina is the best subjective award in terms of giving it to the right player.

The Norris voting is all over the map, though. One year they want to reward 2-way play, so they give it to Drew Doughty. The next year, they change their mind and just go back to giving it to the defensemen who gets the most points in hockey. The Selke voting is bad for another reason, they just vote for the same 3 people over and over again. It's almost solely a reputation award at this point, Bergeron could just take a nap on the ice every game and he'd still finish top-2 in Selke voting. I'm expecting Toews to be a finalist for the Selke this year, to be honest

 

[GOilers88]

I will say though, generally speaking, the Hart voting overall has been fine I think. Sure, they're really prone to recency bias (Perry in 2011 and Ovi in 2013 are 2 that come to mind) and overrating big market names (Price in 2015? Really?), but I think it's overall fine. None of those guys winning is that egregious, especially when you consider no one had a strong case in years like 2015 or had some sort of issue like in 2013. It's the same with the Vezina, the Vezina is pretty solid overall. I'd probably argue that the Vezina is the best subjective award in terms of giving it to the right player.

The Norris voting is all over the map, though. One year they want to reward 2-way play, so they give it to Drew Doughty. The next year, they change their mind and just go back to giving it to the defensemen who gets the most points in hockey. The Selke voting is bad for another reason, they just vote for the same 3 people over and over again. It's almost solely a reputation award at this point, Bergeron could just take a nap on the ice every game and he'd still finish top-2 in Selke voting. I'm expecting Toews to be a finalist for the Selke this year, to be honest

I get that last year the Oilers made the playoffs, so McD won it. But I agree with whoever was befuddled at the fact that he was even better this year, with far less help, and is unanimously being removed from the discussion. Price never should have been in there.

Why are the writers the ones who vote? You'd think it would be people who are physically a part of the league.

The Vezina I really like. It's usually pretty damn spot on, I think. I remember arguing with some around here about Rinne still being the cream of the crop and being ridiculed. The dude deserves it so much.

 

[CycloneSweep]

MacKinnon or Kucherov will win the Hart. McDavid will win the Lindsey

 

[fsanford]

The season isn't over yet, but I'd say MacKinnon winning with Kucherov as the runner up. I'd say the other finalist could be any of Malkin, Giroux or Hall. If Malkin can pull off the Richard, I'd say he'd be the other finalist. It depends a lot on what happens in the remaining games, there are a lot of players who are very close.

Actually, right now, I'd have Rinne as the other finalist. So MacKinnon 1st, Kucherov 2nd, Rinne 3rd, Malkin 4th and Giroux 5th. There doesn't seem to be a noticeably strong Norris winner out there.

Why no Kopitar? Carter was out all year, look at his offensive numbers, throw in he is on the first PK, first PP, and is tasked against playing the other teams best center, why would you not include him.

Without Kopitar Kings would be a draft lottery favorite

 

[TheAngryHank]

Matthews should ,his P60 ES numbers are better then everyone's.

 

[Gunnersaurus Rex]

MacKinnon or Kucherov will win the Hart. McDavid will win the Lindsey

Agreed. Eastern media bias will give the Hart to Kucherov.
Players all know about McDavid and he will win the Lindsay (which is more important anyways)

 

[Future GOAT]

No, my criteria is based on how the Hart voters actually vote, and I have years and years of supporting evidence for my claims. Which is the real and correct criteria. Yours is just based on you being a McDavid fan.

Technically, the way they've been voting is wrong.

I think at this point they should revamp the criteria for that award (add specifics like "on playoff only team") so that they won't be awarding it incorrectly anymore, or just start awarding it correctly.

 

[Regal]

I will say though, generally speaking, the Hart voting overall has been fine I think. Sure, they're really prone to recency bias (Perry in 2011 and Ovi in 2013 are 2 that come to mind) and overrating big market names (Price in 2015? Really?), but I think it's overall fine. None of those guys winning is that egregious, especially when you consider no one had a strong case in years like 2015 or had some sort of issue like in 2013. It's the same with the Vezina, the Vezina is pretty solid overall. I'd probably argue that the Vezina is the best subjective award in terms of giving it to the right player.

The Norris voting is all over the map, though. One year they want to reward 2-way play, so they give it to Drew Doughty. The next year, they change their mind and just go back to giving it to the defensemen who gets the most points in hockey. The Selke voting is bad for another reason, they just vote for the same 3 people over and over again. It's almost solely a reputation award at this point, Bergeron could just take a nap on the ice every game and he'd still finish top-2 in Selke voting. I'm expecting Toews to be a finalist for the Selke this year, to be honest

Was there even an argument for anyone else?

 

[Jarey Curry]

MacKinnon should win it because he practically did it all by himself. Hall should also be nominated.

Did Rantanen and Landeskog play on the second line or what am I missing? :O

 

[blueberrie]

If your looking at most valuable to their team.

Explain how Giroux is more valuable then Hall to Jersey. Please do.

I didn't say Giroux is the Hart favourite. I'm saying "doesn't sniff it" is overboard when he's had an incredible season. He drives the Flyers.

 

[Little Psycho]

Why no Kopitar? Carter was out all year, look at his offensive numbers, throw in he is on the first PK, first PP, and is tasked against playing the other teams best center, why would you not include him.

Without Kopitar Kings would be a draft lottery favorite

You're not gonna get a lot of responses. There's no reason why he shouldn't be, people are just ignorant.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Was there even an argument for anyone else?

Yeah, that's why I don't think Price's 2015 was that bad, because there wasn't really anyone else challenging for the Hart. But still though, it was a very weak Hart, his season is about on par with what Bobrovsky does in his Vezina seasons.

 

[Critical13]

kucherov if mack and thall misses

looks like devs will get in so ima go with thall

Stop trying to make thall happen

 

[El Travo]

Yup, if they miss the Playoffs then he will lose a lot of consideration for the Hart. Avs still have a chance as they're only one point out. Have 5 games to go.

Don't really get the point of the thread though? Avs are one point out and people seem to think they have effectively missed the Playoffs.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

Hall or Kucherov if not MaGinnon

 

[KaseMeOutside]

It strangely seems like blind hatred for all things Oilers is making up for a hardened line in the sand of "no playoffs / no Hart".

Thus making further mental gymnastics to validate why they don't want to award McDavid kind of funny to watch.

Watching the McKinnon for Hart crowd pull random arbitrary justifications is hilarious.

OV over McDavid?? Really? Is that's what the narrative is now? There'a a plausible chance McDavid steals the Rocket from him. McD will end up in 3rd place for the Rocket at the worst. You guys absolutely sure Ovechkins 2 extra goals is good enough reason to award him the Hart and leaving McD off the ballot entirely?

McDavid hasn't played a relevant game since the new year

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

The world we live in is chaotic

There are FOUR threads on page about MacK or the Avs

I think that's a sign of the apocalypse.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Technically, the way they've been voting is wrong.

I think at this point they should revamp the criteria for that award (add specifics like "on playoff only team") so that they won't be awarding it incorrectly anymore, or just start awarding it correctly.

I've always wondered why the supposed most prestigious award that you'd think would go toward the best player in the league in a given season (Hart) has such a vague and sometimes confusing "most valuable to his team" definition, yet the Norris and Vezina awards basically reward the "best" at their position, not some vague "most valuable to his team".

I know people will say the Lindsey covers the "Most Outstanding" category, but really, when one thinks of the best players at each position all-time, it's typically measured using Hart for forwards, Norris for defensemen, and Vezina for goalies. The Lindsey is almost treated as a secondary award.