Hart Trophy Talk: MacKinnon, Malkin, Kucherov the Early Favorites, Scoring at Highest Rates By Far.

[hockeyguy1967]

And just like McDavid he struggled to produce consistently with this sort of attention and that was 7 games vs. a 3 game stretch (amazing sample size). Again, do you just say things and not even know what you're saying? Do you know how many points McDavid had against the Ducks? I watched every game, he was minimized. Draisatl was our best player that series. MacK has a chance to rebound and his biggest games are ahead of him, let's see how he reacts before moving him out of the top spot.

McDavid was shadowed all series, If you watched it you would know. This allowed Drai to feast.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Without McDavid and his 103 points? They would be literally one of the worst teams in history. HE HAS NO BEARING ON GOALTENDING
With him they are 10th from the bottom.

Do MacK or Hall win it if there team does not make the playoffs?

Is this rhetorical? Because the obvious answer is no. If Colorado doesn't make it, Mac's chances at winning the Hart probably go down the toilet.

 

[Gunnersaurus Rex]

Okay, when was the last time a guy not on a playoff team won the Hart? I'll wait.

It's clearly an unwritten rule and how the Hart has been awarded for a long time. If you don't make the playoffs, how can you be the "most valuable player"? Who cares if you get a lot of points when you can't even carry your team into a playoff spot?

What are you waiting for? It was 1988. Mario Lemieux. Your point being ?????....

So for example, if Colorado makes the playoffs then MacKinnon should win the Hart. But if they miss by 1 point then he's suddenly no good and shouldn't win?

By your logic, an average player with 60 points on a playoff team is more valuable than a 100 point players on a poor team. That makes no sense.....

 

[Gunnersaurus Rex]

You clearly can't grasp for how the Hart is actually awarded. If your best argument for McDavid deserving the Hart is pointing at Mario Lemieux from 1988, you don't have an actual argument for McDavid getting the Hart. I guarantee he won't even be a finalist.

If you're going to ignore how missing the playoffs hurt St. Louis in 2013 and Benn in 2015, then I can't convince you. You'll just be mad whenever the same thing that has happened consistently happens to McDavid, but don't act like people didn't tell you it would happen.

Personally, my best argument for McDavid winning the Hart is that he is the best player, with the most points, and has the highest value to his team. All other players in the top 10 in scoring have a teammate (or two) also in the top 20 in scoring. McDavid has pretty much done this on his own.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

What are you waiting for? It was 1988. Mario Lemieux. Your point being ?????....

So for example, if Colorado makes the playoffs then MacKinnon should win the Hart. But if they miss by 1 point then he's suddenly no good and shouldn't win?

By your logic, an average player with 60 points on a playoff team is more valuable than a 100 point players on a poor team. That makes no sense.....

His point is that's how these things usually go. Empoleon isn't part of the PHWA (at least I don't think he is), so getting mad at him for simply saying that's how voters usually vote is kind of weird.

Whether it SHOULD be the case is another matter. But, based on history, it's very, very, very rare for the PHWA to vote a player as the Hart winner if their team misses the playoffs.

 

[Gunnersaurus Rex]

The goal is to make the playoffs.. The MVP is the most important player on a team that made it. That's his value. It's not rocket science. It's not saying that this is the best player in the league, just the most important to a teams playoff chances. Just because 4% of the winners did not get into the playoffs it doesn't mean that there's some serious precedent and no unwritten rule.

I really don't get why some people need mcdavid to get everything.

The goal is to win the Stanley Cup.

 

[Empoleon8771]

His point is that's how these things usually go. Empoleon isn't part of the PHWA (at least I don't think he is), so getting mad at him for simply saying that's how voters usually vote is kind of weird.

Whether it SHOULD be the case is another matter. But, based on history, it's very, very, very rare for the PHWA to vote a player as the Hart winner if their team misses the playoffs.

Bingo, it's the same exact argument I used when people were saying that Marchand or Kopitar should win the Hart. The Hart has never been given for "the most valuable player", the Hart winners and nominees consistently:

1. Are on playoff teams
2. Are at the top of the league in scoring
3. Win other major awards

The finalists almost always have those 3 things being true, with the few exceptions being guys like Stamkos, who scored 60 goals and had a weak competition in his Hart nomination year. People keep trying to warp what the Hart actually is awarded for to say their player deserves it, but that's not how it's awarded. Marchand isn't going to win the Hart because he has the highest points/game in hockey and is "really good defensively". Kopitar isn't going to win the Hart because #2 on his team is a lot of points behind him and Kopitar will challenge for the Selke this year. The Hart isn't awarded like that and has never been awarded like that.

If this would be any other year, I think McDavid would be a finalist. Maybe not win, but he'd be a finalist. But this year? This is a great year for Hart contenders, McDavid is hurt by being on a bad team plus this year being very competitive for the Hart.

 

[GOilers88]

The goal is to make the playoffs.. The MVP is the most important player on a team that made it. That's his value. It's not rocket science. It's not saying that this is the best player in the league, just the most important to a teams playoff chances. Just because 4% of the winners did not get into the playoffs it doesn't mean that there's some serious precedent and no unwritten rule.

I really don't get why some people need mcdavid to get everything.

It's not that people feel he has to win everything. It's the he's simply that much better than pretty much everyone else in the league without any real help from his team and he's 21 years old.

There were people who got mad at Gretzky in the same manner, but when you're that damn good it happens. Hell,even Gretzky had teammates that were helping instead of being stapled to Lucic.

 

[Doctor No]

There were people who got mad at Gretzky in the same manner, but when you're that damn good it happens. Hell,even Gretzky had teammates that were helping instead of being stapled to Lucic.

Seems disingenuous to mention Lucic without mentioning Semenko on the other side of the ledger.

 

[GOilers88]

Bingo, it's the same exact argument I used when people were saying that Marchand or Kopitar should win the Hart. The Hart has never been given for "the most valuable player", the Hart winners and nominees consistently:

1. Are on playoff teams
2. Are at the top of the league in scoring
3. Win other major awards

The finalists almost always have those 3 things being true, with the few exceptions being guys like Stamkos, who scored 60 goals and had a weak competition in his Hart nomination year. People keep trying to warp what the Hart actually is awarded for to say their player deserves it, but that's not how it's awarded. Marchand isn't going to win the Hart because he has the highest points/game in hockey and is "really good defensively". Kopitar isn't going to win the Hart because #2 on his team is a lot of points behind him and Kopitar will challenge for the Selke this year. The Hart isn't awarded like that and has never been awarded like that.

If this would be any other year, I think McDavid would be a finalist. Maybe not win, but he'd be a finalist. But this year? This is a great year for Hart contenders, McDavid is hurt by being on a bad team plus this year being very competitive for the Hart.

McD has two of those three in spades. I don't see how anyone can hold the fact that the rest of his team isn't playing hockey against him.

He has literally played the Oilers above 6 or 7 other teams on his own. No other player in the league would be able to do what he does with that team.

 

[Connor McConnor]

McDavid was shadowed all series, If you watched it you would know. This allowed Drai to feast.

Lmao you just contradicted yourself.. First you say MacK should have produced the past 3 games because even if the other team is keying in on him McDavid has done it. Then you're like, yeah well McDavid didn't produce because he was being shadowed. Is it Mack's fault Colorado doesn't have someone as good as Drai to carry the load when he's getting "shadowed"? Your credibility in this argument is going dooooownhill.

 

[GOilers88]

Seems disingenuous to mention Lucic without mentioning Semenko on the other side of the ledger.

Semenko wasn't there to be a power play guy or put up major points. That's what Kurri was for. Lucic was supposed to help offset the loss of Hall, but he's not even bringing physicality like Semenko did.

 

[Doctor No]

Semenko wasn't there to be a power play guy or put up major points. That's what Kurri was for. Lucic was supposed to help offset the loss of Hall, but he's not even bringing physicality like Semenko did.

Yes, but Semenko skated with Gretzky. If you're going to credit McDavid specifically for having to carry Lucic, then you need to credit Gretzky similarly.

 

[Empoleon8771]

McD has two of those three in spades. I don't see how anyone can hold the fact that the rest of his team isn't playing hockey against him.

He has literally played the Oilers above 6 or 7 other teams on his own. No other player in the league would be able to do what he does with that team.

But he doesn't have all 3, which you seem to be ignoring. Him not making the playoffs is what is going to kill his chances. If this was a weaker year for the Hart, maybe he'd get a nomination, possibly even win. But this year? No way, there are too many strong candidates. You're just ignoring the precedent for how these voters actually vote for the Hart.

You could go by any argument to show McDavid doesn't deserve the Hart. You want to do most valuable? The Oilers suck with or without McDavid. Based on past precedent for how the Hart is voted on? Missing the playoffs is a death sentence to his Hart chances. He puts up points on a team that sucks with him or without him, that's not Hart worthy.

 

[joe dirte]

I don't like it because it introduces hypothetical scenarios. It is not as simple as more TOI = more points. If that were the case, why don't the coaches just give them more minutes? Players get specific levels of TOI for a reason.

because coaches deploy their players differently, and different teams have different personnel. more ice time most certainly leads to more points. it may not be a linear relationship but it certainly is related.

an elite player on a team with no depth will naturally get more ice than one with more depth and less ice. butbthe coach may want to spread the ice around to keep his players fresh. coaches dont just give more ice because they aren't trying to get as many points out of their players as possible they're trying to win games.

 

[Gunnersaurus Rex]

Bingo, it's the same exact argument I used when people were saying that Marchand or Kopitar should win the Hart. The Hart has never been given for "the most valuable player", the Hart winners and nominees consistently:

1. Are on playoff teams
2. Are at the top of the league in scoring
3. Win other major awards

The finalists almost always have those 3 things being true, with the few exceptions being guys like Stamkos, who scored 60 goals and had a weak competition in his Hart nomination year. People keep trying to warp what the Hart actually is awarded for to say their player deserves it, but that's not how it's awarded. Marchand isn't going to win the Hart because he has the highest points/game in hockey and is "really good defensively". Kopitar isn't going to win the Hart because #2 on his team is a lot of points behind him and Kopitar will challenge for the Selke this year. The Hart isn't awarded like that and has never been awarded like that.

If this would be any other year, I think McDavid would be a finalist. Maybe not win, but he'd be a finalist. But this year? This is a great year for Hart contenders, McDavid is hurt by being on a bad team plus this year being very competitive for the Hart.

So who is your choice to win?

 

[Empoleon8771]

So who is your choice to win?

The season isn't over yet, but I'd say MacKinnon winning with Kucherov as the runner up. I'd say the other finalist could be any of Malkin, Giroux or Hall. If Malkin can pull off the Richard, I'd say he'd be the other finalist. It depends a lot on what happens in the remaining games, there are a lot of players who are very close.

Actually, right now, I'd have Rinne as the other finalist. So MacKinnon 1st, Kucherov 2nd, Rinne 3rd, Malkin 4th and Giroux 5th. There doesn't seem to be a noticeably strong Norris winner out there.

 

[Gunnersaurus Rex]

But he doesn't have all 3, which you seem to be ignoring. Him not making the playoffs is what is going to kill his chances. If this was a weaker year for the Hart, maybe he'd get a nomination, possibly even win. But this year? No way, there are too many strong candidates. You're just ignoring the precedent for how these voters actually vote for the Hart.

You could go by any argument to show McDavid doesn't deserve the Hart. You want to do most valuable? The Oilers suck with or without McDavid. Based on past precedent for how the Hart is voted on? Missing the playoffs is a death sentence to his Hart chances. He puts up points on a team that sucks with him or without him, that's not Hart worthy.

Which player has all 3 of YOUR criteria? None this year from what I can see.

 

[Gunnersaurus Rex]

The season isn't over yet, but I'd say MacKinnon winning with Kucherov as the runner up. I'd say the other finalist could be any of Malkin, Giroux or Hall. If Malkin can pull off the Richard, I'd say he'd be the other finalist. It depends a lot on what happens in the remaining games, there are a lot of players who are very close.

None of those players have all 3 of your criteria though.

Can't included MacKinnon because he is not on a playoff team right now. Hall might not make it either. The field gets pretty weak now if you don't include non-playoff participants

 

[Empoleon8771]

None of those players have all 3 of your criteria though....

Which player has all 3 of YOUR criteria? None this year from what I can see.

Are you really ignoring the importance of that first criteria? Or would it be better if I said "finish high in voting for another award"? Your "gotcha" moment isn't a great one, that's for sure. I listed them in that way for a reason, you know.

Kucherov is 2nd in points, MacKinnon could easily end up 3rd in points and 1st in PPG, while he also carried the Avs to the playoffs. Rinne is likely going to win the Vezina and is the starting goalie on the best team in hockey. Malkin could very well win the Richard and he could also end up 3rd in points.

Can't included MacKinnon because he is not on a playoff team right now.

Well that's just stupid. Is that really your best argument? Colorado is about 50/50 in making the playoffs currently.

Hall might not make it either.

The Devils have about a 75% chance of making the playoffs.

The field gets pretty weak now if you don't include non-playoff participants

Are you really this much of a McDavid fanboy where you need to justify him deserving a trophy that no one in 30 years has won when not making the playoffs? Seriously?

 

[GOilers88]

Tampa makes the playoffs even without Kucherov though...I truly don't understand how people can say one guy doesn't deserve it cause his team is out, but another guy does deserve it even though his team would have made it without him.

You then point out that I'm ignoring the fact that he doesn't meet all 3 of your criteria, but you do the same thing for the guys you think deserve it.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Tampa makes the playoffs even without Kucherov though...I truly don't understand how people can say one guy doesn't deserve it cause his team is out, but another guy does deserve it even though his team would have made it without him.

Because that is the way the award is voted on.

 

[Gunnersaurus Rex]

Again, that is YOUR criteria. Mine is different. Neither is right or wrong.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Again, that is YOUR criteria. Mine is different. Neither is right or wrong.

No, my criteria is based on how the Hart voters actually vote, and I have years and years of supporting evidence for my claims. Which is the real and correct criteria. Yours is just based on you being a McDavid fan.

 

[BruinLVGA]

As of right now, Marchand leads both ppg (1.34) and p/60 (4.08).

Considering that in the p/60, a significant chunk is PK where it's much more difficult to get points, it's even more impressive. I mean... Marchand 1:49 of PK, McKinnon 0:19, Malkin 0:03, Kucherov 0:00...