Proposal: Hampus Lindholm offer sheet (BUF/NJD)

[WhatTheDuck]

Ok, if I understand you:

Selling low on Despres would equal a 2nd Rd pick with games played conditions attached so he might be worth a 2nd+ depending or possibly.

Fowler, whatever he's traded for (if he is) is high value b/c so much demand for him around various NHL teams he would never be traded at a low value.

Ok good to know.

Nope I meant a pick that could be as high as a 2nd if he plays a certain number of games.

Yes I believe the market for Fowler would be too strong for the return to be affected by the Ducks situation. Too many teams needing help on the back end and not enough proven minute munchers to go around.

 

[DANTHEMAN1967]

Low value for Despres might be a 2nd with games played conditions on it. No point in discussing low value on Fowler, too much of a market for a Dman of that caliber to have to worry about selling low. When it comes to young, affordable defensemen who can log minutes, supply and demand says we won't have to worry about that.

Don't think that the overpay by Chiarelli means that the other 28 GMs are equally stupid.

Until Despres can play and show he has recovered he has a negative value.

 

[Eric Sachs]

Kinda shocked New Jersey has all that cap and doesn't make an offer. Lindholm and Hall would make that team playoff bound.

How do you know NJ didn't make an offer?

People always clamor about offer sheets but don't realize that the player actually needs to sign said offer sheet.. and if they don't, it's likely never picked up on by the media.

Not to say that every RFA gets an offer sheet.. but it may indeed be more common than people think.

 

[Heraldic]

Or 3) Bob Murray laughs because this proposed contract isn't allowed per this CBA rule: "Salary variance: No more than 35 percent year-over-year and no year less than 50 percent of the highest year."

Good point, I remembered the rules a bit differently.

So, 9 million, 7,5 million, 5,5 million and 3x 4,66 million.

Basically the same and under the rules. Internal budget ****ed up nevertheless.

***

It seems there are quite many (Ducks fans) that don't really understand how the offersheet might affect on B.Murray's situation, even if there is no offersheet signed yet. This was discussed back then, though...

At this moment Lindholm has had the possibility of talking with other teams. He might (and likely will) prefer Anaheim as his best option. But he might have the "fair long term deal" as his deal breaker.

So B.Murray is at the moment either offering him only QO or in addition a bridge deal. Lindholm might absolutely not want that. Then he contacts other possible teams, who are willing to give him that (let's say 6x6 as frontloaded as I described).

In that situation Lindholm has a lot more leverage than without the possible offersheets. There might be a team that is willing to give him a deal he wants, and that he seems a second best option to play in. He might prefer Ducks more, but the second best option is not that bad either. So if he signs an offersheet, and it is matched, everything played out perfectly for him. If Anaheim doesn't match it, then he gets moved, but he still gets his contract that he wanted.

If Lindholm is adamant about getting "fair long term deal", and B.Murray is adamant about getting bridge deal, the chances of an offersheet being signed are pretty big.

But the point is, that dragging the negotiations at this point, already gave Lindholm a lot more leverage.

And about the talk Buffalo not having enough cap space to even now (after adding Kulikov), are pretty incorrect. With McCormick going to LTIR they have about 11 million cap space left. They move Franson for a 6th round pick somewhere, and they got about 14,5 million. They sign both Risto and Lindholm to 6 million deals, Girgs to about 1,5 million bridge deal, and add one depth forward, and they are under the cap.

Many other teams are most likely being able to make same type of maneuvers.

 

[Vipers31]

Lindholm might absolutely not want that. Then he contacts other possible teams, who are willing to give him that (let's say 6x6 as frontloaded as I described).

Yes, I'm sure Lindholm's agent is only just now starting to think of things like those, and the lack of an offer sheet that has been a possibility for two months now can be ignored.

But the point is, that dragging the negotiations at this point, already gave Lindholm a lot more leverage.

Right. His leverage pre-July = "I could sign an offer sheet" + "I could play for even less in Europe". His leverage now = "Well, sure, it has been two months with the offer sheet thing being an option, but it's totally not because there's no attractive ones on the table, and even if there weren't, right around September is usually the time those come together. Oh, right, and I can still play for less in Europe, which Im only jokingly going to refer to in an interview."

Many other teams are most likely being able to make same type of maneuvers.

We'll continue waiting, then.

 

[Heraldic]

Yes, I'm sure Lindholm's agent is only just now starting to think of things like those, and the lack of an offer sheet that has been a possibility for two months now can be ignored.

Did you even tried to understand what you read? Just because an offersheet isn't signed, doesn't mean that no offersheet isn't offered/negotiated. Or you have some proof here?

Right. His leverage pre-July = "I could sign an offer sheet" + "I could play for even less in Europe". His leverage now = "Well, sure, it has been two months with the offer sheet thing being an option, but it's totally not because there's no attractive ones on the table, and even if there weren't, right around September is usually the time those come together. Oh, right, and I can still play for less in Europe, which Im only jokingly going to refer to in an interview."

No, it's going from "I could go back to Sweden, or I could have an entertaining offersheet", to "I'm actually having this 6x6 offersheet on the table, and unless you give me something even remotely close, you might have to make a difficult choice".

If you don't understand the difference, I cannot really help here anymore than this.

We'll continue waiting, then.

I'm not the one here who has time as his enemy.

 

[markog]

Or front load the deal that isn't 4 1st's and Anaheim will match that difficult as this season they're paying more real dollars then cap hits of players (at least I read that.

 

[Vipers31]

Did you even tried to understand what you read? Just because an offersheet isn't signed, doesn't mean that no offersheet isn't offered/negotiated. Or you have some proof here?

The burden of proof is hardly on me when presenting a hypothetical situation.

No, it's going from "I could go back to Sweden, or I could have an entertaining offersheet", to "I'm actually having this 6x6 offersheet on the table, and unless you give me something even remotely close, you might have to make a difficult choice".

So, it could theoretically be going from an offer sheet that could be expected, to an offer sheet that may or may not be there. All the leverage from that hypothetical negotiation tactic is virtually unbearable.

I'm not the one here who has time as his enemy.

Yeah, that's true - your lost your battle with time when you proclaimed the Ducks wouldn't run the risk of having Lindholm even vulnerable to offer sheets and would trade him before that.

Time isn't too unkind so far. Once camps roll around, time will get a little more fierce as an enemy, but it will be opposing both the Ducks and Lindholm.

 

[ffh]

Did you even tried to understand what you read? Just because an offersheet isn't signed, doesn't mean that no offersheet isn't offered/negotiated. Or you have some proof here?



No, it's going from "I could go back to Sweden, or I could have an entertaining offersheet", to "I'm actually having this 6x6 offersheet on the table, and unless you give me something even remotely close, you might have to make a difficult choice".

If you don't understand the difference, I cannot really help here anymore than this.



I'm not the one here who has time as his enemy.

why would you not sign an offer sheet right away. as soon as you sign it the team your on has to match it or lose you. I have 6x6 but if you don't give me 6x5.5 I'm leaving. there is no talking after its signed . they are forced to pay you the same why would you take less.

 

[Hictor Vedman*]

How do you know NJ didn't make an offer?

People always clamor about offer sheets but don't realize that the player actually needs to sign said offer sheet.. and if they don't, it's likely never picked up on by the media.

Not to say that every RFA gets an offer sheet.. but it may indeed be more common than people think.

Because there is no proof that suggests otherwise. I need to see things to believe in them, otherwise it's merely hearsay.

 

[CaptainChef]

Kinda shocked New Jersey has all that cap and doesn't make an offer. Lindholm and Hall would make that team playoff bound.

Yep, NJ has over 12m in cap space, 23 players on their roster to date, but only 5 D. If they made an offer of $7 m (or 6.5) X 6 for instance, what would that cost them in draft picks?

 

[mytduxfan*]

Yep, NJ has over 12m in cap space, 23 players on their roster to date, but only 5 D. If they made an offer of $7 m (or 6.5) X 6 for instance, what would that cost them in draft picks?

1st + 2nd + 3rd all 2017. NJ doesn't have it's own 3rd, so they can't OS Lindholm even if they wanted to. Literally their only option is 4 x 1st round picks. No chance.

 

[Pennaduck]

Good point, I remembered the rules a bit differently.

So, 9 million, 7,5 million, 5,5 million and 3x 4,66 million.

Basically the same and under the rules. Internal budget ****ed up nevertheless.

***

It seems there are quite many (Ducks fans) that don't really understand how the offersheet might affect on B.Murray's situation, even if there is no offersheet signed yet. This was discussed back then, though...

At this moment Lindholm has had the possibility of talking with other teams. He might (and likely will) prefer Anaheim as his best option. But he might have the "fair long term deal" as his deal breaker.

So B.Murray is at the moment either offering him only QO or in addition a bridge deal. Lindholm might absolutely not want that. Then he contacts other possible teams, who are willing to give him that (let's say 6x6 as frontloaded as I described).

In that situation Lindholm has a lot more leverage than without the possible offersheets. There might be a team that is willing to give him a deal he wants, and that he seems a second best option to play in. He might prefer Ducks more, but the second best option is not that bad either. So if he signs an offersheet, and it is matched, everything played out perfectly for him. If Anaheim doesn't match it, then he gets moved, but he still gets his contract that he wanted.

If Lindholm is adamant about getting "fair long term deal", and B.Murray is adamant about getting bridge deal, the chances of an offersheet being signed are pretty big.

But the point is, that dragging the negotiations at this point, already gave Lindholm a lot more leverage.

And about the talk Buffalo not having enough cap space to even now (after adding Kulikov), are pretty incorrect. With McCormick going to LTIR they have about 11 million cap space left. They move Franson for a 6th round pick somewhere, and they got about 14,5 million. They sign both Risto and Lindholm to 6 million deals, Girgs to about 1,5 million bridge deal, and add one depth forward, and they are under the cap.

Many other teams are most likely being able to make same type of maneuvers.

It's kind of amusing how on one thread one here Sabres fans are arguing that Ristolainen is or will be as good as Lindholm, yet on this thread sabres fans are talking about how Lindholm is going to sign an offer sheet that the Ducks can't match, while simultaneously talking about signing their own RFAs no problem. You can literally replace Ristolainen's name with Lindholm, Girgenson's name with Rakell, McCormick with Thompson, Franson with Despres, and counter this entire argument with "The ducks are going to offer sheet Ristolainen.

Worry about your own RFAs and let us worry about ours. If an offer was going to be put out there that was too large for Bob Murray to match it would have happened by now, just as it would have for Trouba and Risto.

 

[CaptainChef]

1st + 2nd + 3rd all 2017. NJ doesn't have it's own 3rd, so they can't OS Lindholm even if they wanted to. Literally their only option is 4 x 1st round picks. No chance.

Two sites I've checked say they own all of their first three picks in 2017, so I say that an OS would be well worth their while.
http://www.draftsite.com/nhl/mock-draft/2017/

 

[Sojourn]

I'm not the one here who has time as his enemy.

Aren't you? Last I checked, Ristolainen was still un-signed.

Maybe stop trying to pat yourself on the back, and actually see that the situations aren't too dissimilar. The big difference being that Anaheim fans haven't been telling you for months that we're going to offer sheet Ristolainen, and then smugly insinuating that you're ignorant to the facts. You worry about your players, and we'll worry about ours.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Two sites I've checked say they own all of their first three picks in 2017, so I say that an OS would be well worth their while.
http://www.draftsite.com/nhl/mock-draft/2017/

That site is terrible for actual draft picks owned. For a while there for the 2016 draft they had Toronto with Pit 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Even though if they got Pit's 1st(Kessel trade) they had to give back Pit's 2nd(so impossible to own both), and the 3rd they got in that deal was New jersey's not pits. That site is so bad

http://www.generalfanager.com/teams/new-jersey-devils

https://www.capfriendly.com/draft/2017

Traded in the Ruutu deal with unknown conditions accoriding to general fanager and capfriendly

 

[haseoke39]

It's kind of amusing how on one thread one here Sabres fans are arguing that Ristolainen is or will be as good as Lindholm, yet on this thread sabres fans are talking about how Lindholm is going to sign an offer sheet that the Ducks can't match, while simultaneously talking about signing their own RFAs no problem. You can literally replace Ristolainen's name with Lindholm, Girgenson's name with Rakell, McCormick with Thompson, Franson with Despres, and counter this entire argument with "The ducks are going to offer sheet Ristolainen.

Worry about your own RFAs and let us worry about ours. If an offer was going to be put out there that was too large for Bob Murray to match it would have happened by now, just as it would have for Trouba and Risto.

The difference is internal budget. Sabres have up to the cap figure, and functionally infinite actual salary dollars. Ducks might have far less if they have an internal budget, particularly if they get a front-loaded deal to match.

Say the Ducks can spend up to $70M -- a $6M increase from last year. On an $8M AAV deal, Lindholm's year 1 can come in at $13M and put them immediately $6M over budget (yes, I've accounted for Bernier's bonus), with only 11 forwards signed. Rakell should make $4M, and you still need to add a 13th forward for $1M or so. You could be looking at needing to shed $11M net, plus whatever the players you need to sign or promote to replace your dumps cost.

Yes, you very could get screwed. Meanwhile, let's say you offersheet Ristolainen at $8M, frontloaded or not. Sabres demote three prospects and go with a 22 man roster (13F, 7D, 2G) and they can match and sign Girgensons for $2M and shed not a thing.

It's very not the same situation.

Now, if ownership altogether abolishes the internal cap for this year, then whatever. But that seems to be an unsubstantiated article of faith I see a lot of Ducks fans clinging to.

And to preempt the sidetrack: No, I don't think the Sabres are any longer in a position to make the $8M offersheet. I don't know if any team in particular is, so you're probably safe. We added $10M to our books with Kulikov and Okposo, so it seems like our bed is made.

 

[Whileee]

1st + 2nd + 3rd all 2017. NJ doesn't have it's own 3rd, so they can't OS Lindholm even if they wanted to. Literally their only option is 4 x 1st round picks. No chance.

I think that technically they could re-acquire their 3rd round pick in a trade if they planned an offer sheet. That probably wouldn't cost that much to do, all things considered. For example, they could trade the Boston 2nd round pick that they own to re-acquire their 3rd round pick.

 

[Maukkis]

Anaheim fans, the scenario is this: Rakell gets OS'd for three years, 3,166m AAV (3 - 3 - 3,5). 2nd round pick as a compensation. 7,2m available cap space with 12F, 6D, 2G roster.

What's the plan?

 

[dracom]

Anaheim fans, the scenario is this: Rakell gets OS'd for three years, 3,166m AAV (3 - 3 - 3,5). 2nd round pick as a compensation. 7,2m available cap space with 12F, 6D, 2G roster.

What's the plan?

My response, who the hell is going to OS Rakell after he has one good season. Especially for that price. Folks on here seem to think GMs should throw OS around to screw other teams, but that just doesn't happen.

 

[Sojourn]

The difference is internal budget. Sabres have up to the cap figure, and functionally infinite actual salary dollars. Ducks might have far less if they have an internal budget, particularly if they get a front-loaded deal to match.

Say the Ducks can spend up to $70M -- a $6M increase from last year. On an $8M AAV deal, Lindholm's year 1 can come in at $13M and put them immediately $6M over budget (yes, I've accounted for Bernier's bonus), with only 11 forwards signed. Rakell should make $4M, and you still need to add a 13th forward for $1M or so. You could be looking at needing to shed $11M net, including the players you need to sign or promote to replace your dumps.

Yes, you very could get screwed. Meanwhile, let's say you offersheet Ristolainen at $8M, frontloaded or not. Sabres demote three prospects and go with a 22 man roster (13F, 7D, 2G) and they can match and sign Girgensons for $2M and shed not a thing.

It's very not the same situation.

Now, if ownership altogether abolishes the internal cap for this year, then whatever. But that seems to be an unsubstantiated article of faith I see a lot of Ducks fans clinging to.

Not really. While I'm not banking on them abolishing the internal cap for this year, it wouldn't be the first time they've done so. And, in this case, they'd have a very good reason to do so.

The truth is that no one here knows what limitations Murray is looking at. Assumptions are being made on both sides here, and yet it seems the only people being called out for it are on the Anaheim side. That's... convenient, don't you think? Instead of admitting ignorance, you can just casually dismiss our opinions and thoughts as being wishful thinking.

Murray could very well head into this season with the team right up against the cap, and then he could seek to make adjustments during the season to bring that number down, if that's what he needs to do. He may even attempt to convince ownership that it's in the team's best interest, and by association their own, to be more flexible this season, because of the importance of someone like Lindholm. We simply don't know. And I'm fine admitting that I don't know. Murray tends to keep his cards close to his chest, and he's making decisions having a great deal more information than we do.

 

[haseoke39]

My response, who the hell is going to OS Rakell after he has one good season. Especially for that price. Folks on here seem to think GMs should throw OS around to screw other teams, but that just doesn't happen.

Response is: I insult your premise and avoid your question.

Rakell is young, coming off his second full season, puts up 43 points and 31 the year before. Looks like a great buy.

Unless he's some black hole defensively or something, that's a young 2C for most teams. The average NHL team doesn't have 4 forwards that can put up 43 points. I'd say that player gets $4M on a long-term deal. Only way you get him cheap is on a bridge.

 

[Maukkis]

My response, who the hell is going to OS Rakell after he has one good season. Especially for that price. Folks on here seem to think GMs should throw OS around to screw other teams, but that just doesn't happen.

Is that the plan? Go around and tell 29 other GMs to wait for a couple of years before offer sheeting him, when he's near UFA?

By the way, do names "O'Reilly" and "Hjalmarsson" sound familiar? Both were offer sheeted, both offer sheets harmed the team eventually. The reason why it happens rarely is because most of the time, there isn't a good candidate to potentially mess up. Anaheim is literally the perfect target right now.

 

[Sojourn]

My response, who the hell is going to OS Rakell after he has one good season. Especially for that price. Folks on here seem to think GMs should throw OS around to screw other teams, but that just doesn't happen.

Personally, I've always felt Rakell was a greater risk to be OS'ed than Lindholm. With Lindholm, if you want him to sign it and you want the Ducks to not match, you're looking at the four 1st round picks. I'm sure there are some GM's out there who would love to add Lindholm, but the combination of the compensation and the contract it would take just gets silly.

Rakell, on the other hand, would/could be sacrificed at the expense of Lindholm. It probably wouldn't take a huge contract to entice him(this is obviously speculation on my part, but given what he deserves, unless he's especially loyal to the team, he'd have every reason to follow the money), the compensation wouldn't be as painful, and the Ducks would probably be less willing to match a contract that overvalues him.

Whether another GM would take that risk is another matter. Personally, I think people overrate the risk of offer sheets. Fans seem to use them more as threats when they don't get the response they want.

 

[haseoke39]

Not really. While I'm not banking on them abolishing the internal cap for this year, it wouldn't be the first time they've done so. And, in this case, they'd have a very good reason to do so.

The truth is that no one here knows what limitations Murray is looking at. Assumptions are being made on both sides here, and yet it seems the only people being called out for it are on the Anaheim side. That's... convenient, don't you think? Instead of admitting ignorance, you can just casually dismiss our opinions and thoughts as being wishful thinking.

Murray could very well head into this season with the team right up against the cap, and then he could seek to make adjustments during the season to bring that number down, if that's what he needs to do. He may even attempt to convince ownership that it's in the team's best interest, and by association their own, to be more flexible this season, because of the importance of someone like Lindholm. We simply don't know. And I'm fine admitting that I don't know. Murray tends to keep his cards close to his chest, and he's making decisions having a great deal more information than we do.

So, you're saying I have equally zero basis for assuming there's an internal cap as you do for assuming there's not?

I admit I don't know what the internal cap is, but I thought we were on common ground here stating that there is one. I'm pretty sure Bob Murray gave interviews where he acknowledged it was there going forward.

When has it been lifted before, BTW? To what level?