Half way Norris vote

[Buck Naked]

Agreed. It's a two horse race between Karlsson and Dahlin at this point.
Then Makar in third.

Fox in third. Pretty big difference between him and Makar this season.

 

[Beerz]

Makar and Fox have the advantage of being on playoff teams (well im expecting Avs to get healthy and make it) and make noise in playoffs .. so they can afford to be off point wise to Karlsson and Dahlin so they aren't out of the picture

 

[Artemi Panarin]

We need an Anti-Norris thread just for the banter.

 

[Beerz]

We need an Anti-Norris thread just for the banter.

Jacob Bryson

 

[Artemi Panarin]

Insane that 3/4 Dmen in converstation is swedish.

In sweden we always knew that Lindholn is a great defender, with enormous ceiling, Lidström like, but more physichal.
Karlsson, EK65 is a beauty offensivly, but defensivly..
Dahlin is the dangler and the creative problem solver, always having a bright solution in the pocket.

I hope Dahlin takes it, I think hes the best, esp at both offense and defense.

There is definitely alot of Swedish fire on D right now.

 

[Sinistril]

EK AINEC

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

I could go either way between Karlsson and Dahlin at this moment. I think even Fox has a legitimate argument for it as well. It's definitely going to be between the three of them (unless someone like Makar really picks it up in the 2nd half of the season, which could happen, but he's got some catching up to do).

 

[Machinehead]

Doesn't really capture Morrissey's defensive play. As I said, he's had an extensive run with Pionk as his D partner this year. To grasp the full magnitude of what that means, take a look at the Jets D with and without Pionk on the ice...

Oh, I've seen him!

Fair enough. That's legitimately a great excuse for Morrissey.

 

[norrisnick]

We need an Anti-Norris thread just for the banter.

Pick any of a dozen Karlsson threads.

 

[Levitate]

So far Fox has a good argument as the best all around defenseman in the NHL this year but that’s not necessarily enough to win the Norris. Writers have been paying more attention to analytics lately though so if he’s in spitting distance points wise he might pull it out
Long way to go though

 

[herashak]

Karlsson is out there playing pond hockey, id go with Morrissey

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

So far Fox has a good argument as the best all around defenseman in the NHL this year but that’s not necessarily enough to win the Norris. Writers have been paying more attention to analytics lately though so if he’s in spitting distance points wise he might pull it out
Long way to go though

Luckily he's in a market where he'll be seen and he's got some history as well as early season analytics in his favor. I'm feeling more for Morrissey who doesn't seem to be getting a lot of attention (at least in USA media).

Karlsson is out there playing pond hockey, id go with Morrissey

I'd definitely give him some votes for the offensive accomplishments but he has no business winning playing loose on a team with no expectations (hell they WANT to lose). I'd have Morrisey = Dahlin then Fox with Karlsson behind right now.

 

[wetcoast]

He is basically PPG on a bottom 10 offense while also being on the Avs shutdown pairing. Logs the most minutes in the league and goes against the top lines. The expectations are out of control if that is considered a dissapointment.

Also the attempts to micro analyze Makars production not overall or at ES but strictly 5 on 5 is about as relative as who scores the most points on Tuesdays among Dmen in that it's trivial.

Makar is doing some heavy lifting for the Avs this season and while he isn't a finalist for the "half season Norris" he is still firmly in the race for the Norris this season.

Looking at the whole picture is more informative than isolating this or that type of stat.

 

[wetcoast]

Luckily he's in a market where he'll be seen and he's got some history as well as early season analytics in his favor. I'm feeling more for Morrissey who doesn't seem to be getting a lot of attention (at least in USA media).



I'd definitely give him some votes for the offensive accomplishments but he has no business winning playing loose on a team with no expectations (hell they WANT to lose). I'd have Morrisey = Dahlin then Fox with Karlsson behind right now.

I agree Morrisey is getting the small market treatment and I wonder if voters will even have him top 5 by the end of the season.

The funny thing with all the talk about EK and his points is that he leads the NHL in Goals Against with 66 depsite not playing very much on the PK and only having 1 PPGA among the 66.

That stat is part of the total picture for EK and can't just be shrugged off as "he plays for a weak team......"

 

[Buck Naked]

Also the attempts to micro analyze Makars production not overall or at ES but strictly 5 on 5 is about as relative as who scores the most points on Tuesdays among Dmen in that it's trivial.

No, it's not micro analyzing. It's looking at the major and most common part of the game in which all games are played. There's a very good reason as to why the whole analytics community uses 5v5 as their game state when analyzing performances since it's when all things are equal. It's in other words extremely relevant. There are plenty of Dmen who excell on the PP and thereby get boosted numbers, yet lack skill and performance to produce 5v5. Tyson Barrie is an excellent example. I highly doubt that you look at him and conclude that he's the 11th best D in the league since that's how his overall production looks. Isolate his 5v5 minutes and find out that he's got 9 points so far and a picture is starting to emerge. Hmm, could it be that he's a power play specialist?

 

[Regal]

So when others produce it's variance and when Makar does it it's not? Sure, he's been good defensively, great in transition, and improved his team to be the 31st (rather than the 32nd?) team in 5v5 scoring, and been great on the PP. I won't argue that. Still don't think his performance this year warrants any kind of mention in the Norris discussion based on what happened so far this season. Second half might be completely different and he will be standing there as a winner in the end. That's beside the point though.

Not Makar specifically, but yes, the very few elite offensive defensemen can produce big 5v5 numbers somewhat regularly, whereas there’s always lots of defensemen who will produce well in a single year and not repeat, because there’s a ton of variance for most defensemen. Adam Larsson having more points at 5v5 is not a sign of Makar being poor in itself, as much as it’s a sign of Larsson having a large variance half season, and there generally being a very meaty middle of defensemen within a handful of 5v5 points after the first couple. Makar has been able to stay near the top every year until this one, which is why his year is disappointing, I agree.

My point though, is focusing on random names ahead of him such as Larsson with no context is pointless. As if focusing on Makar being disappointing relative to expectations. You’re comparing Makar to himself, and irrelevant players, not to the actual Norris field. Karlsson is having an insane 5v5 scoring season, and Fox is having a strong one as well, but no one else is blowing the doors off. If the difference between Makar being in and out of Norris competition is the 4 more 5v5 points Hamilton has, that’s insane to me when you consider everything else he brings. It’s like saying Dahlin shouldn’t be in the discussion because Nick Jensen has as many 5v5 points.

Makar is a Norris winner and a top 5 player in the league when he’s scoring at an elite rate 5v5 like last year. When he’s not, he’s still arguably a top 5 defenseman. I don’t think he should win it or be put above the main top 4 guys right now, but he deserves to be in the peripheral discussion still like that poster suggested. And all the advanced numbers still point to him being very good (the point about improving GF is about when he’s on the ice btw. He has strong relative numbers)

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Fox in third. Pretty big difference between him and Makar this season.

if we’re being honest, there’s no team in the league that would take Erik Karlsson over Adam Fox this year if they were looking to compete.

Fox is so much better an all-around player that it’s just not that close, despite a difference of 14 points.

Some will say I’m salty and a Fox fan but it’s the truth. Easy to see via eye test and backed up by analytics.

Good for Karlsson to resurge and rack up the points but he doesn’t impact the game like Adam Fox at this point in his career.

He’s gonna get a lot of votes for just the points and comeback story

 

[mrmovies779]

Fox is getting better as the season goes on.He's controlling the game on both sides of the ice.im totally biased,but he's amazing every single game

 

[Ben White]

if we’re being honest, there’s no team in the league that would take Erik Karlsson over Adam Fox this year if they were looking to compete.

Fox is so much better an all-around player that it’s just not that close, despite a difference of 14 points.

Some will say I’m salty and a Fox fan but it’s the truth. Easy to see via eye test and backed up by analytics.

Good for Karlsson to resurge and rack up the points but he doesn’t impact the game like Adam Fox at this point in his career.

He’s gonna get a lot of votes for just the points and comeback story

Good to see that you probably haven’t watch a single game with Karlsson this season, and I mean it too. There’s only one player who impacts the game as much as EK this season and that’s McDavid, among Dmen it’s not even remotely close. Tbh I haven’t seen a Dman dominate games the way EK does this season in 30+ years.

 

[mrmovies779]

Good to see that you probably haven’t watch a single game with Karlsson this season, and I mean it too. There’s only one player who impacts the game as much as EK this season and that’s McDavid, among Dmen it’s not even remotely close. Tbh I haven’t seen a Dman dominate games the way EK does this season in 30+ years.

Good to see you have never watched Fox or Makar play a game

 

[Ben White]

Good to see you have never watched Fox or Makar play a game

Indeed I have, they’re elite Dmen, EK is something else this season.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

if we’re being honest, there’s no team in the league that would take Erik Karlsson over Adam Fox this year if they were looking to compete.

Fox is so much better an all-around player that it’s just not that close, despite a difference of 14 points.

Some will say I’m salty and a Fox fan but it’s the truth. Easy to see via eye test and backed up by analytics.

Good for Karlsson to resurge and rack up the points but he doesn’t impact the game like Adam Fox at this point in his career.

He’s gonna get a lot of votes for just the points and comeback story

Teams would pick guys like Fox and Makar over EK every single time without hesitation. If you want to win things you want the complete Dmen that can do it all.

 

[General Fanager]

so far its Morrissey for me.....

 

[rangersfansince08]

Good to see that you probably haven’t watch a single game with Karlsson this season, and I mean it too. There’s only one player who impacts the game as much as EK this season and that’s McDavid, among Dmen it’s not even remotely close. Tbh I haven’t seen a Dman dominate games the way EK does this season in 30+ years.

Yea and how much of that impact is because of his negative defensive play? Guess points are everything for you

 

[Buck Naked]

Yea and how much of that impact is because of his negative defensive play? Guess points are everything for you

10+1 will still equal the same as 7+4.

EKs offensive impact is so major that it pretty much allows for him to be shit defensively and still have a strong positive impact on his team. His xGF percentages are almost on par with Fox, despite being on a much worse team and with worse defense. Games can be impacted in more than one way, that's why all-offense McDavid is the best player in the world and not Patrice Bergeron. It's not always about "a DeFensEmAn hAs onE jOb".

I still think Adam Fox is a better defenseman than Erik Karlsson, but shitting on EK because his defensive game isn't as strong is just a matter of not wanting to admit how above everyone else he is when it comes to offense.