Half way Norris vote

[ElLeetch]

Good stat is subjective. I'm sure there are people out there with a vested interest in measuring the count of goals for and against while on the ice on even strength, the power play, empty net situations, and other various situations that make it a difficult to decipher stat.

And for that small group of people, we have exactly the stat they would want!

The issue is other people who think +/- measures something it doesn't measure.

Is it a good stat to show how good a player is in general? maybe not.

Is it a good stat to refute the idea that "when he is on the ice, he is so good the opposition does not have the opportunity to even get the puck away from him", it is, because the only way he can collect a (-) is to be on the ice for goals against; which only happens when he does not have the puck.

Going back to the original statement that "Karlsson's 11+0 is just as good as someone else 7+4" is then empirically, and in context, Karlson is more like 90 - 100. It doesn't matter if his positive contributions are drastically larger, if he's still a net negative.

 

[Romang67]

Is it a good stat to show how good a player is in general? maybe not.

Is it a good stat to refute the idea that "when he is on the ice, he is so good the opposition does not have the opportunity to even get the puck away from him", it is, because the only way he can collect a (-) is to be on the ice for goals against; which only happens when he does not have the puck.

Most stats are good for refuting hyperbole. There are much better stats for refuting that the other team doesn't have the puck when Karlsson is on the ice.

 

[Buck Naked]

I was just waiting for you to show up. As you see though, I have no problem admitting when they're good.

 

[MCR74]

The Sharks (and Karlsson) stunk it up again last night. Could he at least attempt some defense for once? I know it's a big ask, but maybe with a little effort, Erik could pull it off.

 

[Czechboy]

2 Swedes leading the poll! Still have Hedman too.

I voted other.. Makar is my pick to win it when it is all said and done.

 

[avsfan9]

No, it's not micro analyzing. It's looking at the major and most common part of the game in which all games are played. There's a very good reason as to why the whole analytics community uses 5v5 as their game state when analyzing performances since it's when all things are equal. It's in other words extremely relevant. There are plenty of Dmen who excell on the PP and thereby get boosted numbers, yet lack skill and performance to produce 5v5. Tyson Barrie is an excellent example. I highly doubt that you look at him and conclude that he's the 11th best D in the league since that's how his overall production looks. Isolate his 5v5 minutes and find out that he's got 9 points so far and a picture is starting to emerge. Hmm, could it be that he's a power play specialist?

Did you just call Makar a pp specialist and compare him to Tyson Barrie and that he lacks the skill and performance to produce 5 on 5? This statement boggles the mind and you lose all credibility when identifying a defensman in the nhl. Just WOW!!!! You should have your privileges revoked to post on hfboards for at least 6 months. The difference between Makars and Karlssons power play point percentage is 6%. I guess EK is a pp specialist too!

 

[MCR74]

Did you just call Makar a pp specialist and compare him to Tyson Barrie and that he lacks the skill and performance to produce 5 on 5? This statement boggles the mind and you lose all credibility when identifying a defensman in the nhl. Just WOW!!!! You should have your privileges revoked to post on hfboards for at least 6 months. The difference between Makars and Karlssons power play point percentage is 6%. I guess EK is a pp specialist too!

He must be, since Karlsson is certainly not a defensive specialist.

 

[Signupnow]

Did you just call Makar a pp specialist and compare him to Tyson Barrie and that he lacks the skill and performance to produce 5 on 5? This statement boggles the mind and you lose all credibility when identifying a defensman in the nhl. Just WOW!!!! You should have your privileges revoked to post on hfboards for at least 6 months. The difference between Makars and Karlssons power play point percentage is 6%. I guess EK is a pp specialist too!

Doesn't EK have more even strength points than makar has points in total?

 

[TS Quint]

Isnt Dahlin a part of Tages success, giving him a lot of sandwichwes(feeds). 4pt tonight, but he plays good dexence as well.

Sandwiches?

 

[TS Quint]

Is it me, or does this seem like kind of a weak year for the Norris? I feel like we would normally see someone more visibly challenging Karlsson's offensive dominance, kind of like Makar and Josi last season. No shade to Dahlin and Morrisey, but they aren't having what I would normally think of as the kind of season that wins a Norris.

Or was it weak last year? Makar isn't looking near the same as he did with a full team. Karlsson look great with no team.

 

[TS Quint]

Of course he does. He's one of the top players in the league in zone exits and zone entries. He's one of the best players in the league in the transition game. He's one of the best players in the league when it comes to keeping the puck on his stick. All that contributes to helping the goalie prevent shots on goal. It's actually the best defense there is. Don't let your opponents have the puck.

Get outa here! Craig Ludwig is the best defenseman of all time! Just look at those shin guards.

 

[SwedishFire]

Sandwiches?

Feeds

 

[Buck Naked]

Did you just call Makar a pp specialist and compare him to Tyson Barrie and that he lacks the skill and performance to produce 5 on 5? This statement boggles the mind and you lose all credibility when identifying a defensman in the nhl. Just WOW!!!! You should have your privileges revoked to post on hfboards for at least 6 months. The difference between Makars and Karlssons power play point percentage is 6%. I guess EK is a pp specialist too!

Do you even see Makar's name in my post? I commented on a post that said that looking at 5v5 numbers is a form of micro analysis and gave an example of why it's important to have context when looking at a player and used Barrie as my example. I guess it's almost spelled the same way as Makar though, so I see how you could've read that wrong..? In no way, shape, or form have I called Makar a PP specialist.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Or was it weak last year? Makar isn't looking near the same as he did with a full team. Karlsson look great with no team.

Make EK play the role Makar has and see what happens, it won't end well.

People are for some reason extremely tough on Makar. PPG despite team struggling to score, most minutes, all situations and against top lines. For most that would be considered fantastic, but for him it's not.

 

[Buck Naked]

Make EK play the role Makar has and see what happens, it won't end well.

People are for some reason extremely tough on Makar. PPG despite team struggling to score, most minutes, all situations and against top lines. For most that would be considered fantastic, but for him it's not.

Last year it was said that Makar would do even better with a worse team because on a stacked team there are "more mouths to feed." In the threads comparing him to Karlsson's peak it was said that Makar would dominate even more if he was the one who ran the entire operation, just like Karlsson did back in the days when he dragged Ottawa to the Conference Finals and averaged over 27 minutes per game over six seasons 11/12-16/17? At his absolute best he averaged 29 minutes per game over 82 games. Makar was also called generational and the best Dman since Orr. Why shouldn't he be held to these standards? Isn't it pretty obvious now that what Karlsson did back then was pretty special and unique?

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Last year it was said that Makar would do even better with a worse team because on a stacked team there are "more mouths to feed." In the threads comparing him to Karlsson's peak it was said that Makar would dominate even more if he was the one who ran the entire operation, just like Karlsson did back in the days when he dragged Ottawa to the Conference Finals and averaged over 27 minutes per game over six seasons 11/12-16/17? At his absolute best he averaged 29 minutes per game over 82 games. Makar was also called generational and the best Dman since Orr. Why shouldn't he be held to these standards? Isn't it pretty obvious now that what Karlsson did back then was pretty special and unique?

A lot of dumb shit was said last season, the Orr talk for example was laughable. When players have sensational years Norris + Smythe people can go overboard.

Makar should be judged fairly like the other Dmen. You can basically have any Dman in the league have a similar season and it would be considered great but for Makar there are posts saying it's not good enough and a struggle. He is being judged somewhat differently and in your case it seems to be because the hype by some posters was too much.

 

[Signupnow]

A lot of dumb shit was said last season, the Orr talk for example was laughable. When players have sensational years Norris + Smythe people can go overboard.

Makar should be judged fairly like the other Dmen. You can basically have any Dman in the league have a similar season and it would be considered great but for Makar there are posts saying it's not good enough and a struggle. He is being judged somewhat differently and in your case it seems to be because the hype by some posters was too much.

Laughable. Makar has glided on a shrimp sandwich from day 1 basically, earning the best defenceman in the league after half a season. People were ignoring facts that scoring is up and that makar joined a stacked team 3 years after he's drafted. Like above mentioned people boosted makar achievements by downplaying EK saying Karlsson was somehow in a better position to rack up points and that if makar did play with trash he would look even more dominant.. Now that Colorado was injured he put up like 1 even strength point in like 17 games and that is why people seem harsh on him when EK in his declining injury riddled prime makes him look like Hjalmarsson offensively on an even worse team.

Apparently he Start collect points now again that some are back in the roster. I think he is great player however I don't see the separation from other player like fox who also been downplayed in comparison over the last couple of years who I imo think is better than makar.

I think the future will be between fox and dahlin mainly.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Laughable. Makar has glided on a shrimp sandwich from day 1 basically, earning the best defenceman in the league after half a season. People were ignoring facts that scoring is up and that makar joined a stacked team 3 years after he's drafted. Like above mentioned people boosted makar achievements by downplaying EK saying Karlsson was somehow in a better position to rack up points and that if makar did play with trash he would look even more dominant.. Now that Colorado was injured he put up like 1 even strength point in like 17 games and that is why people seem harsh on him when EK in his declining injury riddled prime makes him look like Hjalmarsson offensively on an even worse team.

Apparently he Start collect points now again that some are back in the roster. I think he is great player however I don't see the separation from other player like fox who also been downplayed in comparison over the last couple of years who I imo think is better than makar.

I think the future will be between fox and dahlin mainly.

How about we just objectively assess his performance this season and leave out the rest. Makar has been one of the best Dmen in the league this year, it would be hard to argue that he isn't in the top 5. He is deservedly not the Norris front runner though.

 

[Buck Naked]

A lot of dumb shit was said last season, the Orr talk for example was laughable. When players have sensational years Norris + Smythe people can go overboard.

Makar should be judged fairly like the other Dmen. You can basically have any Dman in the league have a similar season and it would be considered great but for Makar there are posts saying it's not good enough and a struggle. He is being judged somewhat differently and in your case it seems to be because the hype by some posters was too much.

I agree, it totally went overboard. The shitstorm one had to endure when even suggesting that McDavid was the best player in the league to some posters.

Of course he should be judged fairly, and I think it's fair to say that he's having a really good, albeit a tiny bit disappointing season. I'd probably hold him somewhere 6-10 in the league based only on this season. About the same as Heiskanen, Hughes, and some others.

 

[TS Quint]

Make EK play the role Makar has and see what happens, it won't end well.

People are for some reason extremely tough on Makar. PPG despite team struggling to score, most minutes, all situations and against top lines. For most that would be considered fantastic, but for him it's not.

Poor Makar. Is being held up as a Norris Trophy contender too much for him? Are the hopes of consistency too much? Poor guy. Poor irrational fans who thought of him as elite.

Or maybe it's not so bad. He gets credit for being great when he's great and excuses when he's not.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

How about we just objectively assess his performance this season and leave out the rest. Makar has been one of the best Dmen in the league this year, it would be hard to argue that he isn't in the top 5. He is deservedly not the Norris front runner though.

Agreed. He’s a great young D but every young stud doesn’t have to be compared to Nick Lidstrom. The Seider hype last year was over the top too. Let’s wait a few years before putting these guys in the conversation with the all time greats who were consistently the best D of their generation.

 

[wetcoast]

Dahlin is really making a very strong case for best overall Dman this year.

 

[Ben White]

 

[avsfan9]

Now show the Mcloud goal where Karlsson tries to walk the blue line, gives the puck away and chases down the ice only to end up on the wrong side of the net when the goal is scored.

 

[MCR74]

Now show the Mcloud goal where Karlsson tries to walk the blue line, gives the puck away and chases down the ice only to end up on the wrong side of the net when the goal is scored.

Somehow he can't find that video...