Half way Norris vote

[J bo Jeans]

Avs are gonna start rolling now that their injury troubles are mostly subsided. Makar will have the best second half of any of these dmen and take his 2nd consecutive Norris. He's just better than anyone on this list and league.

 

[Buck Naked]

Avs are gonna start rolling now that their injury troubles are mostly subsided. Makar will have the best second half of any of these dmen and take his 2nd consecutive Norris. He's just better than anyone on this list and league.

And yet he somehow needs to be surrounded by an elite stacked team to perform on that level?

 

[surixon]

I'm going with JoMo as he is right up there in points and is a big part of why his team is first in the West. I think team success plays a role in this so I'm going with him. Can't really go wrong with any of the choices though.

 

[wetcoast]

And yet he somehow needs to be surrounded by an elite stacked team to perform on that level?

I guess that narrative might play well with some people (the well this player is on a poor team versus the great player on a great team) but for those watching his role was a bit different than playing with house money on a non playoff team.

 

[Buck Naked]

I guess that narrative might play well with some people (the well this player is on a poor team versus the great player on a great team) but for those watching his role was a bit different than playing with house money on a non playoff team.

Or, he's just not been as good as last year..

 

[wetcoast]

Or, he's just not been as good as last year..

No he hasn't but that's not what Norris voting is nor should be based on either...right?

 

[Buck Naked]

No he hasn't but that's not what Norris voting is nor should be based on either...right?

Well, all this season, of course. Even if you can tell that a lot of the hockey media (i.e. voters) still didn't catch up to that this year, so far, he hasn't been close to the best D in the league. He's gonna be a finalist no matter what he does for the rest of the year.

 

[wetcoast]

Well, all this season, of course. Even if you can tell that a lot of the hockey media (i.e. voters) still didn't catch up to that this year, so far, he hasn't been close to the best D in the league. He's gonna be a finalist no matter what he does for the rest of the year.

Makar will only be a finalist if he deserves it, winning the Norris doesn't automatically make you a finalist the next year, Fox went from 1st to 5th, Josi dropped out we have to go back to the 17-18 winner Hedman before we see a return to top 3 the following year.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Norris is a flawed trophy

 

[Buck Naked]

Makar will only be a finalist if he deserves it, winning the Norris doesn't automatically make you a finalist the next year, Fox went from 1st to 5th, Josi dropped out we have to go back to the 17-18 winner Hedman before we see a return to top 3 the following year.

Nah, that's not always how it works. Remember Hedman a few years ago? I think it was the same year Fox won. Had a terrible season and played injured. Still was a finalist because the voters were used to Hedman being great and didn't bother checking up on it. They just assumed he was as good as always and voted on him.

 

[J bo Jeans]

Has anyone ever won the Norris being a minus player? Actually curious

 

[wetcoast]

Nah, that's not always how it works. Remember Hedman a few years ago? I think it was the same year Fox won. Had a terrible season and played injured. Still was a finalist because the voters were used to Hedman being great and didn't bother checking up on it. They just assumed he was as good as always and voted on him.

Maybe a little bit of that went on with some voters but it simply wasn't the "best year" for Dmen in the shortened Covid year was it?

 

[Hennessy]

It's not like Makar is doing poorly. He's got 13 goals and 43 points on the season, which puts him 5th for D scoring. Dahlin is 2nd with 48. Karlsson has like 312 or something.
Anyway, Makar hasn't been as dynamic as he was last season, but he's very much in the discussion - which is probably a useless one if Karlsson continues on his tear.

 

[MCR74]

It's not like Makar is doing poorly. He's got 13 goals and 43 points on the season, which puts him 5th for D scoring. Dahlin is 2nd with 48. Karlsson has like 312 or something.
Anyway, Makar hasn't been as dynamic as he was last season, but he's very much in the discussion - which is probably a useless one if Karlsson continues on his tear.

Makar is more concerned with winning bigger, more important trophies.

 

[MrOT]

How can Karlsson lead the entire NHL in assists over both McDavid and Draisatl? That's insane. He's playing with garbage team mates and still doing this. This is starting to get ridiculous at this point. He has like one good, not even elite finisher to feed on his entire team.

 

[Buck Naked]

How can Karlsson lead the entire NHL in assists over both McDavid and Draisatl? That's insane. He's playing with garbage team mates and still doing this. This is starting to get ridiculous at this point. He has like one good, not even elite finisher to feed on his entire team.

There's absolutely no reason to focus on that amazing feat. He's bad defensively.

 

[wetcoast]

There's absolutely no reason to focus on that amazing feat. He's bad defensively.

The reason not to focus on this narrative, that San Jose has like nothing besides EK is beacuse it is false and an insult to the San Jose players.

Are they a great group no they aren't but the EK is better because they are worse narrative is just hyperbole.

EK is having a great offensive season playing with house money and great deployment but let's not exaggerate things here.

How can Karlsson lead the entire NHL in assists over both McDavid and Draisatl? That's insane. He's playing with garbage team mates and still doing this. This is starting to get ridiculous at this point. He has like one good, not even elite finisher to feed on his entire team.

Makar missing last night's game doesn't help him if he misses any significant time either.

 

[Signupnow]

The reason not to focus on this narrative, that San Jose has like nothing besides EK is beacuse it is false and an insult to the San Jose players.

Are they a great group no they aren't but the EK is better because they are worse narrative is just hyperbole.

EK is having a great offensive season playing with house money and great deployment but let's not exaggerate things here.

Makar missing last night's game doesn't help him if he misses any significant time either.

I think Karlsson is as concerned about Makar as Makar is concerned about Adam larsson catching him in points, which is the difference right now. Karlsson have more even strenght points than his total which mainly consists of PP points so Avs really need to keep getting powerplay if theres any chance at all. more than 50% of his points coming from either PP or 6 on 5

 

[Buck Naked]

Are they a great group no they aren't but the EK is better because they are worse narrative is just hyperbole.

Of course that's hyperbole. EK would absolutely do better on a stacked team with several elite teammates, which is pretty scary to think about since he's doing what he's doing on the Sharks.

 

[wetcoast]

Of course that's hyperbole. EK would absolutely do better on a stacked team with several elite teammates, which is pretty scary to think about since he's doing what he's doing on the Sharks.

Funny but we heard that story before and it doesn't work like that in reality most of the time as there is only one puck on the ice and Burns was the higher scoring Dman in that situation.

Now Burns is in a different situation and not scoring as much because better teams usually manage usage differently as well.

Either way we are never going to prove this as the last time this happened the excuse parade happened.

 

[Buck Naked]

Funny but we heard that story before and it doesn't work like that in reality most of the time as there is only one puck on the ice and Burns was the higher scoring Dman in that situation.

Now Burns is in a different situation and not scoring as much because better teams usually manage usage differently as well.

Either way we are never going to prove this as the last time this happened the excuse parade happened.

Isn't Makar the perfect example of this? 1 5v5 point in 17 games when injuries really was a problem, scoring at the lowest pace all situations since joining the NHL? Then MacKinnon comes back and all of a sudden they look like a playoff team again and Makar is basically back to his old antics. The "more mouths to feed" argument is worthless and for some reason only is used when Karlsson is discussed. As soon as someone pointed out that if it was true, Makar should've excelled with basically half their scorers gone, but then it was time for excuses. Different role, other responsibilities, and the absolutely best one I saw; Makar only cares about winning the cup, so he focuses on defense instead.

Burns is scoring at his highest pace since 18/19 so I don't know why you're using him as an example. And no one is using this as an excuse for Karlsson. People are very adament that he's an incredible player for doing this with lesser teammates when it seems like no one else is capable of doing the same. Other players regress, EK excells. And one can just imagine what he could've done had he played with Toews on his pairing and Rantanen and MacKinnon up front. But I guess your answer is scoring less because there are more mouths to feed?

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

East Coast bias but I'd go Fox, the Rangers are probably at the bubble with him being bad/average. Winnipeg probably gets into the playoffs with Morrissey being decent but not at this level + EK65 is playing on a Bedard contender.

 

[Regal]

Isn't Makar the perfect example of this? 1 5v5 point in 17 games when injuries really was a problem, scoring at the lowest pace all situations since joining the NHL? Then MacKinnon comes back and all of a sudden they look like a playoff team again and Makar is basically back to his old antics. The "more mouths to feed" argument is worthless and for some reason only is used when Karlsson is discussed. As soon as someone pointed out that if it was true, Makar should've excelled with basically half their scorers gone, but then it was time for excuses. Different role, other responsibilities, and the absolutely best one I saw; Makar only cares about winning the cup, so he focuses on defense instead.

Burns is scoring at his highest pace since 18/19 so I don't know why you're using him as an example. And no one is using this as an excuse for Karlsson. People are very adament that he's an incredible player for doing this with lesser teammates when it seems like no one else is capable of doing the same. Other players regress, EK excells. And one can just imagine what he could've done had he played with Toews on his pairing and Rantanen and MacKinnon up front. But I guess your answer is scoring less because there are more mouths to feed?

You’re drawing a lot of conclusions from a small sample for a very variable statistic. Makar has historically scored at similar rates 5v5 with and without the big guns one the ice in the past. A small sample of the entire team struggling doesn’t prove he couldn’t produce well on a lesser team.

In general, better teammates probably help, but there’s diminishing returns. I think it’s unlikely Karlsson would improve his points much with a better team while playing like this. Where the better team helps is probably to keep getting him points when he’s not playing at his best.

 

[Signupnow]

The whole easier in getting points In a bad team is so stupid. Do you think Canada's best soccer teams star would get more points if they face Barcelona in their prime ? Or would it be easier for said star to pass it to whoever world's best at their position to get an assist?

 

[Buck Naked]

You’re drawing a lot of conclusions from a small sample for a very variable statistic. Makar has historically scored at similar rates 5v5 with and without the big guns one the ice in the past. A small sample of the entire team struggling doesn’t prove he couldn’t produce well on a lesser team.

In general, better teammates probably help, but there’s diminishing returns. I think it’s unlikely Karlsson would improve his points much with a better team while playing like this. Where the better team helps is probably to keep getting him points when he’s not playing at his best.

There's a huge difference in being on the ice without the big guns and the big guns not being on the roster at all. It changes the whole way the opposing team uses their players against you and most likely the role you play as a prominent player. The absolute best players step up and excell when being put behind the wheel. When Karlsson was able to run Ottawa's game is when he was at his absolute peak. Now, when he's finally back in that spot and can run San Jose's game, this season happens. He just seems to be a notch above the rest when he's at his best.