Proposal: Habs rebuild

[ole ole]

pass.

Picks and prospects only

Exactly.

 

[John Mandalorian]

If you saying that you would play Kuemper over Price on your team in the upcoming playoffs, Than the talk stops here.

It's a moot point. Kuemper is who the Avs have and currently, Price isn't even playing. And if the Avs were to look into another goalie, it's not likely Price is the only option considered. In fact, it's a strong possibility he's not considered at all.

Good GMs are forward looking. And for that reason, the expectations of what he should get back in trade are entirely unrealistic. Maybe Montreal fans should look to sell a different used car?

 

[HuGort]

1st 2nd and Pitlick for cap

I don't know Pitlick that we'll. But looking at his stats looks like serviceable 4th liner.

I would pass on this offer. It is close. But was hoping more than a first and second for Toffoli with 50% retained.

 

[Baksfamous112]

It's a moot point. Kuemper is who the Avs have and currently, Price isn't even playing. And if the Avs were to look into another goalie, it's not likely Price is the only option considered. In fact, it's a strong possibility he's not considered at all.

Good GMs are forward looking. And for that reason, the expectations of what he should get back in trade are entirely unrealistic. Maybe Montreal fans should look to sell a different used car?

It isn’t when the guy flat out said Kuemper was a better goaltender than Price. That’s where it all started

 

[John Mandalorian]

It isn’t when the guy flat out said Kuemper was a better goaltender than Price. That’s where it all started

The regular season must count for something. There are 15 threads a day about players who perform a lot better in the regular season but under-perform in the post season.

 

[McSuper]

Of course, Price isn't the same player he was 8 years ago, but it's just as egregious that people in this thread are forgetting his playoff run last year.

People in this thread can diminish the payer and his inflated contract all they want, but he carried the Habs to the finals. He turns up when it counts, which holds a lot of weight with most GMs

In 2017 Kassian was great in the playoffs . It didn't increase his value . Fans use short term play to justify a high asking price and his contract fact is he has been average in the regular season for a number of years . I posted Koskinen numbers on here the other day and they are very similar to Price numbers over the last 3 years . Koskinen makes less then 1/2 and only has 50 games left on his contract . Fans and it's a lot of Montreal fans think it cost a first to move Koskinen and yet they think Price is going to get them a big return .

 

[McSuper]

When exactly? Except maybe on a few stretches here and there when he was hot

That’s just simply irrelevant since we are discussing who’s the better goalie between Price and Kuemper. Regardless of cap space and contract, do you really think anyone in their right mind would choose Kuemper as their #1 goalie right now instead of Price?

All things consider I would . This is base on contract and other factors

 

[malcb33]

In 2017 Kassian was great in the playoffs . It didn't increase his value . Fans use short term play to justify a high asking price and his contract fact is he has been average in the regular season for a number of years . I posted Koskinen numbers on here the other day and they are very similar to Price numbers over the last 3 years . Koskinen makes less then 1/2 and only has 50 games left on his contract . Fans and it's a lot of Montreal fans think it cost a first to move Koskinen and yet they think Price is going to get them a big return .

Good for Kassian, but did he drag his average team to the finals? No, he didn't.

It's great you can compare Koskinen's regular numbers to Prices, but how does Koskinen's playoff numbers compare? Because the playoffs are the reason you go Price, not his regular season.

Like it or not, goalies are the one position in hockey that can sink a good team or float a bad team's playoff run based on their play.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

My math is fine.
-31 million doesn't include the buried portion of Valimaki's contract, so assuming he replaces Zad, we'll start at 30. He won't be playing with a league minimum partner, so we resign Gudbranson or replace him with another veteran right shot D, either way, it's around 2 million(28).
-28 million minus your proposed Toffoli deal equals 23.75 million.
-19 million for Tkachuk and Johnny leaves 4.75 million.
-If Mangi continues on his 50+ point pace, best case is 5 million. He turns 26 in April and has already signed a bridge deal, so that's-250k.
-Kylington will be bridged at around 3.5 million but it could very well be higher.
-That leaves us sitting at -3.75 million, plus 5 roster spots to fill out a 22 man roster @800k, equals -7.75 million.
-trade Lucic and fill his roster spot 5.25-.8=4.45 million. 4.45 million minus 7.75 equals -3.3 million. That's basically best case scenario on the Mangi and Kylington deals, as far as I'm concerned.

That leaves your plan about 3.5 million short, assuming we'd want a couple hundred thousand in capspace.

Genuinely curious what I'm missing here. A lot more teams have to do way more difficult cap gymnastics than this. And this is only assuming 1 offseason move

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

I don't know Pitlick that we'll. But looking at his stats looks like serviceable 4th liner.

I would pass on this offer. It is close. But was hoping more than a first and second for Toffoli with 50% retained.

My proposal is zero retention

 

[Sparky93]

Genuinely curious what I'm missing here. A lot more teams have to do way more difficult cap gymnastics than this. And this is only assuming 1 offseason move

Well number 1, you've got Johnny making less than Tkachuk and that's just not happening. If they're both on the team, it'll be about 19 million.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Montreal might have been gifted a playoff/play-in spot due to covid but the year before they would have been 6th in the West (Yes ahead of Colorado) and would have made the playoff but didn’t, so it all balances out. Also, correct me if I’m wrong but last year Montreal had Covid issues and had to play half of their seasons - 26 or 27 games - over 42 days with a diminished roster due to injury and tons of fatigue but before that they were top 10 team in terms of points.

Are you honestly suggesting that Montreal would have finished with the exact same point total in 2018-19, despite playing a completely different schedule in the Western Conference? As it was, they got to play 17 games against the worst 5 teams in the NHL, compared to the Avs only playing those 5 teams 11 times. Do you think maybe those 6 extra games might have led to 6 (or more) extra points in the standings? I certainly have my doubts. Or do you have something other than bad logic to suggest the results would be the same?

And, everyone had covid issues last year. The Avs got shut down for Covid twice, and only played like 5 games all season with a mostly healthy roster (they were still missing a top 4D and their backup G), and still managed to win the Presidents' Trophy. Do you really want extra credit for failing to do what other teams did? Or is it just based on playing Vancouver and Ottawa 12 times in your first 25 games and padding your point totals early before failing?

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

If you saying that you would play Kuemper over Price on your team in the upcoming playoffs, Than the talk stops here.

Kuemper is actively playing NHL hockey while Price is out for the foreseeable future after knee surgery/drug rehab/therapy with no solid timetable on when/if he's actually going to return this season. Plus, we already have Kuemper on the roster and don't need to deplete our prospect pool or potentially ruin our cap structure to acquire him. Why exactly would I have any interest in Price? For that matter, why would anyone pick him right now?

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Well number 1, you've got Johnny making less than Tkachuk and that's just not happening. If they're both on the team, it'll be about 19 million.

Zero chance Flames pay Johnny 9.5M, no more than 8.75M max. I even doubt Tkachuk gets 9, probably ~8.5M. Gaudreau either takes a team friendly discount or goes somewhere else to get paid like every UFA. 1 or the other, never both.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Who cares?

when it matters most he is money in the bank. The players themselves vote for him nearly every year.

Does the banker get confused when Price shows up without the Cup? Because, that's the only thing that really matters.

 

[Sparky93]

Zero chance Flames pay Johnny 9.5M, no more than 8.75M max. I even doubt Tkachuk gets 9, probably ~8.5M. Gaudreau either takes a team friendly discount or goes somewhere else to get paid like every UFA. 1 or the other, never both.

I don't think so, Johnny is proving his value this year. If he isn't the highest paid Flame, next year, then he won't be a Flame. Teams will offer him 10, I mean Dougie and Nurse got 9+. Zero chance Johnny takes less this time.

And just for the record, a one timer is pass to shot, without establishing control. The moment you receive the pass before shooting, it's no longer a one timer. Monahan actually very rarely one times it.

I'm saying 9.75 for Johnny and 9.25 for Tkachuk

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

I don't think so, Johnny is proving his value this. If he isn't the highest paid Flame, next year, then he won't be a Flame. Teams will offer him 10, I mean Dougie and Nurse got 9+. Zero chance Johnny takes less this time.

And just for the record, a one timer is pass to shot, without establishing control. The moment you receive the pass before shooting, it's no longer a one timer. Monahan actually very rarely one times it.

I'm saying 9.75 for Johnny and 9.25 for Tkachuk

In the exact same off season a similar level player that plays the exact same position in Gabriel Landeskog signed for 8 years at 7M. He was reported to be asking for 9M on the market. Furthermore Tayler Hall re-signed for 4 years at 6M. Nurse was an outlier, he is well considered be overpaid the instant that deal was submitted. Dougie falls right in for what I was talking about, if you want to just get paid you go somewhere else. Jones did a sign and trade so he was signing his upcoming new deal with a new team too. Panarin went to the market to get paid, same with Pietrangelo. Look at Parako, 6.5M for someone who is arguably better than Nurse. Pelech and Pulock, 5.75 and 6.175 respectively.

This is a really simple concept, if you just want to get paid you go to the market, the team you were previously on is the only team that can offer you an 8th year but they are not going to overpay you to stay. GM's have learned their lesson since the EK65 contract. I am telling you right now, there is zero chance Johnny gets anywhere north of 8.75M from Calgary. That's 70M for 8 years, on the market a team would have to offer him 10M just to match it. And in a flat cap that is not at all realistic

Tkachuk might get 9 but I still expect him to fall around 8.5M, he hasn't proven he is worth more than 2 time Stanley cup champ Brayden Point by any means.

Anyways this is a just cluttering a thread not at all about the Flames or their cap space so I'm going to drop the conversation here. If you want to continue start a separate thread

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

I don't think so, Johnny is proving his value this year. If he isn't the highest paid Flame, next year, then he won't be a Flame. Teams will offer him 10, I mean Dougie and Nurse got 9+. Zero chance Johnny takes less this time.

And just for the record, a one timer is pass to shot, without establishing control. The moment you receive the pass before shooting, it's no longer a one timer. Monahan actually very rarely one times it.

I'm saying 9.75 for Johnny and 9.25 for Tkachuk

$9.75m would make Gaudreau the 4th highest paid winger in the NHL. He could get it and there's an argument that he's worth it, but it seems very risky for a soon to be 29 year old guy who struggled the last couple of years, especially if it's full term (7 or 8 years).

 

[Sparky93]

$9.75m would make Gaudreau the 4th highest paid winger in the NHL. He could get it and there's an argument that he's worth it, but it seems very risky for a soon to be 29 year old guy who struggled the last couple of years, especially if it's full term (7 or 8 years).

Sounds right about where he should be. Whether it's the Flames or not, he'll get it. It's pretty comparable to the Giroux contract in today's market and a 7 year would take Johnny to 35.

 

[Sparky93]

In the exact same off season a similar level player that plays the exact same position in Gabriel Landeskog signed for 8 years at 7M. He was reported to be asking for 9M on the market. Furthermore Tayler Hall re-signed for 4 years at 6M. Nurse was an outlier, he is well considered be overpaid the instant that deal was submitted. Dougie falls right in for what I was talking about, if you want to just get paid you go somewhere else. Jones did a sign and trade so he was signing his upcoming new deal with a new team too. Panarin went to the market to get paid, same with Pietrangelo. Look at Parako, 6.5M for someone who is arguably better than Nurse. Pelech and Pulock, 5.75 and 6.175 respectively.

This is a really simple concept, if you just want to get paid you go to the market, the team you were previously on is the only team that can offer you an 8th year but they are not going to overpay you to stay. GM's have learned their lesson since the EK65 contract. I am telling you right now, there is zero chance Johnny gets anywhere north of 8.75M from Calgary. That's 70M for 8 years, on the market a team would have to offer him 10M just to match it. And in a flat cap that is not at all realistic

Tkachuk might get 9 but I still expect him to fall around 8.5M, he hasn't proven he is worth more than 2 time Stanley cup champ Brayden Point by any means.

Anyways this is a just cluttering a thread not at all about the Flames or their cap space so I'm going to drop the conversation here. If you want to continue start a separate thread

Johnny produced the same amount of point as Landeskog in a 150 less games. You wanna talk about flawed logic, you're literally talking about nickel and diming Gaudreau, in order to acquire Toffoli. Backlund has out produced Toffoli over the last 6 years. Do you honestly think someone would offer us a 1st + a 2nd if we retained a million on Backs, because I don't. That's with Backlund being a center and much better defensively. Your entire evaluation of talent is so off I just don't know where to begin, but 2 Tyler Toffoli's wouldn't replace what he means to this team or fill the seats like Johnny does.

I even like Toffoli but the time to figure out how to fit him was two offseasons ago, prior to the Coleman signing.

 

[McPhees Moustache]

Avs last three playoffs ended thusly. They lost in seven to a superior sharks team. Avs were an 8th seed.

then they lost in the bubble as a 2 seed to a 3 seed in seven games where their roster was gutted by injures. Hardly a sign they underachieved. They were unlucky to have such a diminished roster.

last season they lost to a number 2 OA seed that finished the regular season with the same point total as the Avs. A team that’s been to a finals and two wester conference finals in their last/only four seasons. Tough second round draw when you don’t play a typical lower seed but the second best regular season team.

Be glad the Avs and Wild beat them up for you vs the cakewalk that was the Canadian path to the final four.

You rail on Price as being a has been and how he's done nothing lately and yet he single-handedly carried a subpar team all the way to the Stanley Cup finals beating a team that the Avs were unable to beat with their vastly superior team and what I can only assume is als0 superior goalie as well based on your Price rhetoric.....

Say what you will about Price's inflated contract and inconsistent regular season performances in recent seasons I think anyone who watched last seasons playoffs would at least acknowledge that he still has the potential to be one of the best goalies in the league, regardless of any issues currently surrounding him

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Johnny produced the same amount of point as Landeskog in a 150 less games. You wanna talk about flawed logic, you're literally talking about nickel and diming Gaudreau, in order to acquire Toffoli. Backlund has out produced Toffoli over the last 6 years. Do you honestly think someone would offer us a 1st + a 2nd if we retained a million on Backs, because I don't. That's with Backlund being a center and much better defensively. Your entire evaluation of talent is so off I just don't know where to begin, but 2 Tyler Toffoli's wouldn't replace what he means to this team or fill the seats like Johnny does.

I really don't get your logic, acquiring Toffoli has absolutely nothing to do with Gaudreau's next contract, similarly Gaudreau has nothing to do with wanting to acquire Toffoli. I am not saying Gaudreau will get less than your number so that we can fit in Toffoli, I am saying Gaudreau will get less because historically that's how resigns work.

Year after year other teams (ie Tampa, Toronto, Vegas) go through much worse cap gymnastics to fit their main core in. Why are you so hung up on arguing that?

Where is my evaluation of talent so far off? In my proposal Toffoli is literally getting only a 2nd more than 1 month of Palmieri returned, less than what Coleman returned for 2 years, a little bit more than Nick Foligno as a rental.

 

[HogtownSabresfan]

Hoffman is signed up to 2025 with a decent contrat.
This guy is still really good and a great sniper.

You can wave Hoffman and no one takes him. Dream on.

 

[HogtownSabresfan]

You rail on Price as being a has been and how he's done nothing lately and yet he single-handedly carried a subpar team all the way to the Stanley Cup finals beating a team that the Avs were unable to beat with their vastly superior team and what I can only assume is als0 superior goalie as well based on your Price rhetoric.....

Say what you will about Price's inflated contract and inconsistent regular season performances in recent seasons I think anyone who watched last seasons playoffs would at least acknowledge that he still has the potential to be one of the best goalies in the league, regardless of any issues currently surrounding him

At a $10.5 M for 4.5 years, you need a sure thing,

 

[McPhees Moustache]

At a $10.5 M for 4.5 years, you need a sure thing,

I’m not claiming that Price is worth his current contract- if he gets traded retention will surely be involved. Im simply questioning a poster who is claiming that Price can’t still be one of the best goaltenders in the league only months removed from carrying a bubble team to the Stanley Cup finals.