Proposal: Habs rebuild

[McJedi]

Really dude? I know you hate all Habs fans and players or whatever but like chill dude.

Many of you guys actually believe Drouin is better than a player like Nichushkin. When Nuke is such a superior player in nearly every sense and will be backed up by all analytics that aren’t just counting secondary assists on PP chances.

It’s shocking how little certain Habs fans know about hockey. Which is why HF Habs proposals are so routinely panned by other fan bases.

 

[Baksfamous112]

Kuemper has proven to be a substantially better regular season goalie than Price over the past few seasons.

With Price, you’re rolling the dice his regular season suck and indifference to those 82 games doesn’t bleed into his post season play.

I don’t see any GM making that bet on Price.

When exactly? Except maybe on a few stretches here and there when he was hot

That’s just simply irrelevant since we are discussing who’s the better goalie between Price and Kuemper. Regardless of cap space and contract, do you really think anyone in their right mind would choose Kuemper as their #1 goalie right now instead of Price?

 

[member 334057]

People in this thread can diminish the payer and his inflated contract all they want, but he carried the Habs to the finals. He turns up when it counts, which holds a lot of weight with most GMs

I think the bigger risk is his regular season performance. If a team has to reach the playoffs for Price to turn it on then they need him to perform better than he did last season prior to the playoffs. Additionally there's no guarantee that he will still even be able to perform to that level following knee surgery. Obviously he needs to come back and show he's healthy, but with the way the Habs have been playing this season and his recent non playoff history what are the chances he looks good enough for a team to take that gamble?

 

[Baksfamous112]

Many of you guys actually believe Drouin is better than a player like Nichushkin. When Nuke is such a superior player in nearly every sense and will be backed up by all analytics that aren’t just counting secondary assists on PP chances.

It’s shocking how little certain Habs fans know about hockey. Which is why HF Habs proposals are so routinely panned by other fan bases.

Oh okay I get it now. Whoever play for Colorado is a better hockey player because.. Colorado? Better prospects, better goalie, better defense, better overall players. Funny you play the “No one is watching Colorado” card. I’m sure you’re out there watching 60-70 habs game a year and have a great understanding of our players. Colorado is just one big synergy with a full team of god-like players who’s other teams can’t compete with, right?

 

[McJedi]

Oh okay I get it now. Whoever play for Colorado is a better hockey player because.. Colorado? Better prospects, better goalie, better defense, better overall player. It’s just one big synergy with a full team of god-like players who can’t seem to get out of the second round though

Or it’s that guys like Drouin and Price are players that lack dynamic qualities and are overpaid relative to their abilities and performances. And in these two, they have issues well beyond hockey that are clearly so serious they kept them off the ice.

the Habs have several bad contracts on their books. Two of the worst or Price and Drouin.

 

[McJedi]

Oh okay I get it now. Whoever play for Colorado is a better hockey player because.. Colorado? Better prospects, better goalie, better defense, better overall players. Funny you play the “No one is watching Colorado” card. I’m sure you’re out there watching 60-70 habs game a year and have a great understanding of our players. Colorado is just one big synergy with a full team of god-like players who’s other teams can’t compete with, right?

Or this issue is really that Drouin is significantly overpaid for being a player that is limited, one dimensional and inconsistent. And has some off the ice problems that are significant enough to cause him to walk away from the sport.

teams aren’t in the market for overpaid head cases. Avs included.

 

[Baksfamous112]

Or it’s that guys like Drouin and Price are players that lack dynamic qualities and are overpaid relative to their abilities and performances. And in these two, they have issues well beyond hockey that are clearly so serious they kept them off the ice.

the Habs have several bad contracts on their books. Two of the worst or Price and Drouin.

Price is such an overrated player on a bad contract that even though he hasn’t played a single game this year he was still a lock to be Canada #1 goalie ahead of Fleury, Jarry, Hart and... Kuemper who probably wouldn’t even have gotten an invite to the olympics.

 

[McJedi]

When exactly? Except maybe on a few stretches here and there when he was hot

That’s just simply irrelevant since we are discussing who’s the better goalie between Price and Kuemper. Regardless of cap space and contract, do you really think anyone in their right mind would choose Kuemper as their #1 goalie right now instead of Price?

When exactly? Price has been pretty terrible 3 of his last four seasons. That doesn’t include this season where he’s not even available to play yet due to some major off ice issues. So it looks like 4 of his last five seasons will be grossly underperformance based on his $10.5mm AAV.

Over the arch of their entire careers, they have a virtually identical save % using the entire sample size. I’d agree Price has played on better teams than Kuemper.

 

[Baksfamous112]

Or this issue is really that Drouin is significantly overpaid for being a player that is limited, one dimensional and inconsistent. And has some off the ice problems that are significant enough to cause him to walk away from the sport.

teams aren’t in the market for overpaid head cases. Avs included.

I guess they rather hand out long terms contracts to guys like Rantanan, Landeskog, Girard (lol) who can’t seem to be able to defend anymore when it really matters in the playoff. That’s what happens when you’re all offense and can’t defend to save your life. It gives you nice regular season numbers to look at (lol again) and then it all disappears when you’re down to 8 teams and it start to really matter.

 

[McJedi]

Price is such an overrated player on a bad contract that even though he hasn’t played a single game this year he was still a lock to be Canada #1 goalie ahead of Fleury, Jarry, Hart and... Kuemper who probably wouldn’t even have gotten an invite to the olympics.

Guess what. Price didn’t play in the 2022 Olympics just like he hasn’t played this season.

So this idea he’s some lock to play on a team that doesn’t exist in games that never happen isn’t compelling. It’s some nonsensical argument that has no basis whatsoever.

 

[Baksfamous112]

When exactly? Price has been pretty terrible 3 of his last four seasons. That doesn’t include this season where he’s not even available to play yet due to some major off ice issues. So it looks like 4 of his last five seasons will be grossly underperformance based on his $10.5mm AAV.

Over the arch of their entire careers, they have a virtually identical save % using the entire sample size. I’d agree Price has played on better teams than Kuemper.

WJC gold medal, AHL playoff MVP. AHL champion. 2 Olympics gold medals. Art trophy winner and more. Overall seen like the best goalie of his generation.

2.77 GAA and .907 Save % on what’s supposed to be the best overall (offensive + defensive) team in the league.

As I said in my previous post, that’s what happens when you open up hockeyDB and look at points. You get a hot take like yours with no context. It fits exactly what I explained earlier about the “success” Colorado had this past 3 years. It’s all about personal stats in Colorado over team success. Who cares if we can’t get out of the second round as long as we have had good regular season stats to pat ourselves in the back, right I’ll leave it at that.

Guess what. Price didn’t play in the 2022 Olympics just like he hasn’t played this season.

So this idea he’s some lock to play on a team that doesn’t exist in games that never happen isn’t compelling. It’s some nonsensical argument that has no basis whatsoever.

Yeah other than the fact team Canada GM literally said Price would have been his go-to guy regardless of how many games he played this season.

 

[McJedi]

WJC gold medal, AHL playoff MVP. AHL champion. 2 Olympics gold medals. Art trophy winner and more. Overall seen like the best goalie of his generation.

2.77 GAA and .907 Save % on what’s supposed to be the best overall (offensive + defensive) team in the league.

As I said in my previous post, that’s what happens when you open up hockeyDB and look at points. You get a hot take like yours with no context. It fits exactly what I explained earlier about the “success” Colorado had this past 3 years. It’s all about personal stats in Colorado over team success. Who cares if we can’t get out of the second round as long as we have had good regular season stats to pat ourselves in the back, right I’ll leave it at that.



Yeah other than the fact team Canada GM literally said Price would have been his go-to guy regardless of how many games he played this season.

Price was a hell of a goalie in his 20s. Worthy of his 5th OA status. Truly elite.

He’s not remotely the same consistent star goalie in his 30s. He’s basically a subpar starter the last four seasons. Canada isn’t playing in the Olympics. Price isn’t playing in the Olympics. He’ll probably never play for team Canada again in a highly competitive format like that.

 

[Baksfamous112]

Price was a hell of a goalie in his 20s. Worthy of his 5th OA status. He’s not remotely the same consistent star player in his 30s.

Yes - Last two playoff run by Montreal clearly showed that

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

WJC gold medal, AHL playoff MVP. AHL champion. 2 Olympics gold medals. Art trophy winner and more. Overall seen like the best goalie of his generation.

2.77 GAA and .907 Save % on what’s supposed to be the best overall (offensive + defensive) team in the league.

As I said in my previous post, that’s what happens when you open up hockeyDB and look at points. You get a hot take like yours with no context. It fits exactly what I explained earlier about the “success” Colorado had this past 3 years. It’s all about personal stats in Colorado over team success. Who cares if we can’t get out of the second round as long as we have had good regular season stats to pat ourselves in the back, right I’ll leave it at that.



Yeah other than the fact team Canada GM literally said Price would have been his go-to guy regardless of how many games he played this season.

Which of Price's accolades are from the NHL regular season since 2017? Because since then, over a more than 135 game sample for each, Price has a 0.909 SV%, compared to a 0.921 for Kuemper. Kuemper also has more shutouts (in 58 fewer games played), and pretty much better numbers across the board. Even this year, when Kuemper's numbers aren't great, I think every competent GM would easily take Kuemper over the guy who isn't even playing.

There's also absolutely zero context that would suggest that Carey Price would make any difference for the Avs. Would he have magically prevented Landeskog from getting called for a phantom offside on a game 7 tying goal? Or stayed healthy so we didn't have our 3rd string goalie in net for the last 3 games against Dallas? Or would he have somehow made the offense score more than 5 goals in the first 3 losses to Vegas?

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Yes - Last two playoff run by Montreal clearly showed that

You mean the 2 playoff runs that Montreal only got to play in because of special covid rules, and not because Price was good enough in the regular season to actually earn it?

 

[McJedi]

WJC gold medal, AHL playoff MVP. AHL champion. 2 Olympics gold medals. Art trophy winner and more. Overall seen like the best goalie of his generation.

2.77 GAA and .907 Save % on what’s supposed to be the best overall (offensive + defensive) team in the league.

As I said in my previous post, that’s what happens when you open up hockeyDB and look at points. You get a hot take like yours with no context. It fits exactly what I explained earlier about the “success” Colorado had this past 3 years. It’s all about personal stats in Colorado over team success. Who cares if we can’t get out of the second round as long as we have had good regular season stats to pat ourselves in the back, right I’ll leave it at that.



Yeah other than the fact team Canada GM literally said Price would have been his go-to guy regardless of how many games he played this season.

Avs last three playoffs ended thusly. They lost in seven to a superior sharks team. Avs were an 8th seed.

then they lost in the bubble as a 2 seed to a 3 seed in seven games where their roster was gutted by injures. Hardly a sign they underachieved. They were unlucky to have such a diminished roster.

last season they lost to a number 2 OA seed that finished the regular season with the same point total as the Avs. A team that’s been to a finals and two wester conference finals in their last/only four seasons. Tough second round draw when you don’t play a typical lower seed but the second best regular season team.

Be glad the Avs and Wild beat them up for you vs the cakewalk that was the Canadian path to the final four.

 

[Chainshot]

What would the ask be on Savard? He has no movement clause protection and he seems to have become a 3rd pairing, defensive defenseman.

 

[1909]

Gorton and the new GM have to be very careful in their 'demolition-reconstruction' moves. Get rid on the non-leaders first: Hoffman, Drouin, Toffoli, Pertry, Armia. Lots of money for no impact and production. Give a hard look at the Carey Price situation. If he is willing to be traded: go for it !

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Oh okay I get it now. Whoever play for Colorado is a better hockey player because.. Colorado? Better prospects, better goalie, better defense, better overall players. Funny you play the “No one is watching Colorado” card. I’m sure you’re out there watching 60-70 habs game a year and have a great understanding of our players. Colorado is just one big synergy with a full team of god-like players who’s other teams can’t compete with, right?

If we are specifically talking about Nuke vs Drouin here it isn't remotely close. The gap between the 2 players is pretty massive. Nuke is closer to Mangiapane and Drouin is around the same as DeBrusk

 

[Baksfamous112]

You mean the 2 playoff runs that Montreal only got to play in because of special covid rules, and not because Price was good enough in the regular season to actually earn it?

Montreal might have been gifted a playoff/play-in spot due to covid but the year before they would have been 6th in the West (Yes ahead of Colorado) and would have made the playoff but didn’t, so it all balances out. Also, correct me if I’m wrong but last year Montreal had Covid issues and had to play half of their seasons - 26 or 27 games - over 42 days with a diminished roster due to injury and tons of fatigue but before that they were top 10 team in terms of points.

Avs last three playoffs ended thusly. They lost in seven to a superior sharks team. Avs were an 8th seed.

then they lost in the bubble as a 2 seed to a 3 seed in seven games where their roster was gutted by injures. Hardly a sign they underachieved. They were unlucky to have such a diminished roster.

last season they lost to a number 2 OA seed that finished the regular season with the same point total as the Avs. A team that’s been to a finals and two wester conference finals in their last/only four seasons. Tough second round draw when you don’t play a typical lower seed but the second best regular season team.

Be glad the Avs and Wild beat them up for you vs the cakewalk that was the Canadian path to the final four.

Though second round draw? You mean the same team that Price put in his back pocket? Haha, right. FYI, Toronto was a much, much harder and tighter series than Vegas, so your Cakewalk path to the final four you’re talking about doesn’t make any sense.

The only teams Colorado has taken out since they became a powerhouse were a broken St-Louis and Calgary the year before. Both team came in the playoff with a very bad end of season and losing streak/injuries.

I don’t even count Arizona as a win as even my beer hockey league would have beaten them

 

[ole ole]

Seems a little steep and there could be some serious cap implications beyond this year. I really don't see the Habs rebuilding either. As horrible as it has been, they're not even a year removed from the finals and as hard as it is for me to admit, I liked the make up of that team, they just lack star power. If the woes continue this year, they could very well add that missing star power at the draft. What about a hockey trade?

Backlund + Zadorov for Toffoli + Chiarot

Montreal gets the veteran, defensive center, who can still put up 40 points, while sheltering and mentoring the kids.
Flames run a Mangi-Dube-Toffoli 2nd line, which should be tough to handle and keep our deadline currency for a bonified center upgrade.

Just terrible for the Habs. Wouldn't trade Toffoli alone for those 2 let alone throw in Chiarot
We are going into a rebuilt stage. We'll easily take the Draft picks we can get over Backlund + Zadorov .

 

[General Fanager]

You mean the 2 playoff runs that Montreal only got to play in because of special covid rules, and not because Price was good enough in the regular season to actually earn it?

Who cares?

when it matters most he is money in the bank. The players themselves vote for him nearly every year.

 

[ole ole]

Which of Price's accolades are from the NHL regular season since 2017? Because since then, over a more than 135 game sample for each, Price has a 0.909 SV%, compared to a 0.921 for Kuemper. Kuemper also has more shutouts (in 58 fewer games played), and pretty much better numbers across the board. Even this year, when Kuemper's numbers aren't great, I think every competent GM would easily take Kuemper over the guy who isn't even playing.

There's also absolutely zero context that would suggest that Carey Price would make any difference for the Avs. Would he have magically prevented Landeskog from getting called for a phantom offside on a game 7 tying goal? Or stayed healthy so we didn't have our 3rd string goalie in net for the last 3 games against Dallas? Or would he have somehow made the offense score more than 5 goals in the first 3 losses to Vegas?

If you saying that you would play Kuemper over Price on your team in the upcoming playoffs, Than the talk stops here.

 

[Sparky93]

I think you should try that math again.

Assuming the cap goes up rhe 1M its projected to increase that leaves Calgary with anout 31M cap space to work with this offseason without any moves. After the main FA signings they probably have just around 5M in cap to sign 6-7 depth players/promote players. Trade out Lucic and add Toffoli and its 6M for the depth players.

Chiarot vs Zad is pretty irrelevant since both players are horrible defensively, bottom pair, and just hit hard.

My math is fine.
-31 million doesn't include the buried portion of Valimaki's contract, so assuming he replaces Zad, we'll start at 30. He won't be playing with a league minimum partner, so we resign Gudbranson or replace him with another veteran right shot D, either way, it's around 2 million(28).
-28 million minus your proposed Toffoli deal equals 23.75 million.
-19 million for Tkachuk and Johnny leaves 4.75 million.
-If Mangi continues on his 50+ point pace, best case is 5 million. He turns 26 in April and has already signed a bridge deal, so that's-250k.
-Kylington will be bridged at around 3.5 million but it could very well be higher.
-That leaves us sitting at -3.75 million, plus 5 roster spots to fill out a 22 man roster @800k, equals -7.75 million.
-trade Lucic and fill his roster spot 5.25-.8=4.45 million. 4.45 million minus 7.75 equals -3.3 million. That's basically best case scenario on the Mangi and Kylington deals, as far as I'm concerned.

That leaves your plan about 3.5 million short, assuming we'd want a couple hundred thousand in capspace.

 

[General Fanager]

Seems a little steep and there could be some serious cap implications beyond this year. I really don't see the Habs rebuilding either. As horrible as it has been, they're not even a year removed from the finals and as hard as it is for me to admit, I liked the make up of that team, they just lack star power. If the woes continue this year, they could very well add that missing star power at the draft. What about a hockey trade?

Backlund + Zadorov for Toffoli + Chiarot

Montreal gets the veteran, defensive center, who can still put up 40 points, while sheltering and mentoring the kids.
Flames run a Mangi-Dube-Toffoli 2nd line, which should be tough to handle and keep our deadline currency for a bonified center upgrade.

pass.

Picks and prospects only