Prospect Info: Grand Rapids Griffins Discussion

[Rzombo4 prez]

I'm not suggesting a player has to be perfect to play for us. That couldn't be further from the case on our current roster. I'm not even saying I agree with management's evaluation of Edvinsson, I just think that's what they think. Personally, I haven't watched enough games of Edvinsson to come to a conclusion on that. What I do know is everyone in the organization has high praise for Albert, and while sure he's not perfect (nobody is) his whole appeal is his lack of mistakes. Like Mazur said, he does everything right. If there's a long term injury on D I could see Yzerman calling him up to slide into a 3rd pair role. Especially since we're pushing for a playoff spot, they're gonna be more picky with who they call up.

I don't think they hesitate to recall Ed if injuries give them the opportunity. My money says they only sent him down because they don't have a roster spot for him (not because of how he played during his two games this year). I personally, for the sake of curiosity would like to see what Albert looks like in the NHL. I still contend, however, that he is too much of a tweener for the NHL game and that it will be his undoing. I agree with those who have him above Wallinder on the current depth chart, though.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Moreover, if the reason he is in GR is "mistakes" (I am still waiting for someone to elaborate on what this meanings), 6/7 of the defensemen on the roster should be in GR. Why hold Ed to a different standard?

Because they want him playing #1D minutes instead of #6D minutes?

 

[norrisnick]

Because they want him playing #1D minutes instead of #6D minutes?

Then don't play him #6D minutes. Coach needs to get over his fear of the unknown and play the kids.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Because they want him playing #1D minutes instead of #6D minutes?

Then you are telling me he isn't in GR because of "mistakes"

 

[Pavels Dog]

Then don't play him #6D minutes. Coach needs to get over his fear of the unknown and play the kids.

Actually coach needs to win.

Then you are telling me he isn't in GR because of "mistakes"

The two aren’t mutually exclusive. He makes too many mistakes to play top 4 minutes in the NHL.

 

[izlez]

I very much disagree with this comment. He wasn't flawless, but he also wasn't totally out of place, especially during his two games this season. At this point I also don't see him acquiring NHL decision making and processing (on both sides of the puck) playing in the AHL. As for your AHL.tv question: he is without question the Griffins' best player night in and night out. It really isn't very close.

Moreover, if the reason he is in GR is "mistakes" (I am still waiting for someone to elaborate on what this meanings), 6/7 of the defensemen on the roster should be in GR. Why hold Ed to a different standard?

Lastly, don't pull stats based upon 11 games of NHL play. No one in their right mind would consider that an adequate sample size.

There is zero doubt in my mind that we can play Ed in the NHL today without hurting our chances of making the playoffs.

In the NHL, he makes mistakes. When I watch the games he's involved in, he makes good plays offensively and defensively. He also gives up way too many A+ scoring chances. That is a huge deal to me, and I think that is a huge thing that coaches look at as well. If you take "nothing" plays from the other team and turn them into high quality chances, that is a problem, and you won't get into the NHL until you correct it.

That is what I see when watching him play. To support this, while I understand it is a small sample size, here are some numbers I think are reflective of that:

	Goals Against/60	High Danger Chances Against/60
Edvinsson	4.82	12.73
Chiarot	3.3	12.17
Gostisbehere	2.68	11.13
Holl	2.63	11.26
Petry	2.55	9.48

As far as making the playoffs, the number of chances he lets up and goals against he lets up has led to a 3-7-1 record in games he's played. Yes, its a small sample size, but its what we have and I don't think it is pure coincidence


And again, I love him as a prospect. I just don't think he's ready as a 21 year old

 

[Michael Brand Eggs]

Well, he's also LOOKED like he's been making lots of mistakes in those games.

If we can't use his NHL games to gauge his NHL readiness, his AHL stats don't look too impressive to change my mind. Who has AHLtv?

Seems to me that you know what information you need to make a convincing argument, know that your current line of reasoning doesn't include it, and yet still want to keep going.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

In the NHL, he makes mistakes. When I watch the games he's involved in, he makes good plays offensively and defensively. He also gives up way too many A+ scoring chances. That is a huge deal to me, and I think that is a huge thing that coaches look at as well. If you take "nothing" plays from the other team and turn them into high quality chances, that is a problem, and you won't get into the NHL until you correct it.

That is what I see when watching him play. To support this, while I understand it is a small sample size, here are some numbers I think are reflective of that:

	Goals Against/60	High Danger Chances Against/60
Edvinsson	4.82	12.73
Chiarot	3.3	12.17
Gostisbehere	2.68	11.13
Holl	2.63	11.26
Petry	2.55	9.48

As far as making the playoffs, the number of chances he lets up and goals against he lets up has led to a 3-7-1 record in games he's played. Yes, its a small sample size, but its what we have and I don't think it is pure coincidence


And again, I love him as a prospect. I just don't think he's ready as a 21 year old

I appreciate you throwing out the numbers to support your argument, but it's also important to note the state of the team when Ed was on it.

9 games last season after the trade deadline while paired with Chiarot who was having the worst season of his career. On top of that, Detroit had traded away a top 4 defenseman and 3 top 9 wingers while dealing with other injuries in the lineup. That didn't help matters.

The two he played this year were December 23rd and 27th. That wasn't a very good showing by the team in general but Reimer and Michael Hutchinson were the team's goalies here.

Ed doesn't have great underlying numbers when you combine the two seasons and 11 game sample, but he's hardly the reason for Detroit's bad record in that span.

 

[norrisnick]

Actually coach needs to win.

The two aren’t mutually exclusive. He makes too many mistakes to play top 4 minutes in the NHL.

Who is the "He" there? Olli? Ben? Jeff? Ghost? Holl?

Edvinsson isn't going to get any more ready to play NHL defense outside of the NHL. At this stage he needs NHL reps. There are are ton of minutes being played by guys that make a ton of mistakes on our NHL roster right now. Ed might actually still learn from them. The guys we have are what they are at this point, with the exception of Mo who still has growing to do.

The analogy is this. Which would you rather have playing D for the Wings this season? Mo with 200+ games of NHL experience or Mo with 11 games of NHL experience? If the answer is Mo with 200+ games of NHL experience, why in the f*** are you ok with delaying Ed getting those reps?

We aren't winning shit this year. What's important is the next few, and a massive part of that is because ostensibly Ed, among others, will have been integrated into the lineup as well as guys like Mo and Ray ramping up in their prime. Developing our young core is exponentially more important than squeezing out a point or two on the backs of Holl or Maatta or Petry or Ghost, etc... None of them should be here when this team is ready to compete.

 

[Oddbob]

Who is the "He" there? Olli? Ben? Jeff? Ghost? Holl?

Edvinsson isn't going to get any more ready to play NHL defense outside of the NHL. At this stage he needs NHL reps. There are are ton of minutes being played by guys that make a ton of mistakes on our NHL roster right now. Ed might actually still learn from them. The guys we have are what they are at this point, with the exception of Mo who still has growing to do.

The analogy is this. Which would you rather have playing D for the Wings this season? Mo with 200+ games of NHL experience or Mo with 11 games of NHL experience? If the answer is Mo with 200+ games of NHL experience, why in the f*** are you ok with delaying Ed getting those reps?

We aren't winning shit this year. What's important is the next few, and a massive part of that is because ostensibly Ed, among others, will have been integrated into the lineup as well as guys like Mo and Ray ramping up in their prime. Developing our young core is exponentially more important than squeezing out a point or two on the backs of Holl or Maatta or Petry or Ghost, etc... None of them should be here when this team is ready to compete.

Because Mo was and is a lot better than Ed. The Ed we saw last year and this year, looks raw still. Not saying I don't want him up, as I do, but you act like he is ready for primetime minutes and I don't think he is. Right now, sheltered minutes are probably what would be best for him. He has lots of skill, but he also has lots of little things he doesn't do right. You can rag on the NHL vets like Maatta all you want, but they are solid, where you know what you are getting. Ed right now would be a mixed bag, and expecting any NHL coach that has their team in the playoffs currently to want to switch to a rookie is not something many NHL coaches will or would do.

When Mo played his first game, we could see this is a big time player, I haven't seen that from Ed yet.

Ed isn't exactly ripping up the AHL offensively either. If he was top 5 in offence from Dmen down there, I would get the complaints, but he is 23rd in offence from Dmen, and still has lots of space to grow defensively.

 

[norrisnick]

Because Mo was and is a lot better than Ed. The Ed we saw last year and this year, looks raw still. Not saying I don't want him up, as I do, but you act like he is ready for primetime minutes and I don't think he is. Right now, sheltered minutes are probably what would be best for him. He has lots of skill, but he also has lots of little things he doesn't do right. You can rag on the NHL vets like Maatta all you want, but they are solid, where you know what you are getting. Ed right now would be a mixed bag, and expecting any NHL coach that has their team in the playoffs currently to want to switch to a rookie is not something many NHL coaches will or would do.

When Mo played his first game, we could see this is a big time player, I haven't seen that from Ed yet.

Ed isn't exactly ripping up the AHL offensively either. If he was top 5 in offence from Dmen down there, I would get the complaints, but he is 23rd in offence from Dmen, and still has lots of space to grow defensively.

It's f***ing insanity to sit here and state someone isn't ready for NHL minutes... because they don't have NHL minutes. Insanity.

I'd argue that if just roll out Ed in a 20+ minutes per night with both specialty units role, a week or two he'd be running with it. Mo wouldn't be Mo if Blash just gave him 10-15 minutes here or there for a week and he got shipped back down to GR. These are guys that need to play and be pushed. The AHL isn't pushing him. He was lighting it up a month or two back and what good did it do him? More AHL games? Wowee... such motivation to push yourself in a shit league... The Wings have proven that they don't give two shits how well you play if the players with more NHL games on their resume are healthy. You're lying to yourself if you think he'd be up if he were a PPG. If two guys don't get hurt, he's not coming up. That's what the Wings are telling their prospects right now. Hope your teammates get hurt so you get a chance.

 

[Oddbob]

It's f***ing insanity to sit here and state someone isn't ready for NHL minutes... because they don't have NHL minutes. Insanity.

I'd argue that if just roll out Ed in a 20+ minutes per night with both specialty units role, a week or two he'd be running with it. Mo wouldn't be Mo if Blash just gave him 10-15 minutes here or there for a week and he got shipped back down to GR. These are guys that need to play and be pushed. The AHL isn't pushing him. He was lighting it up a month or two back and what good did it do him? More AHL games? Wowee... such motivation to push yourself in a shit league... The Wings have proven that they don't give two shits how well you play if the players with more NHL games on their resume are healthy.

He has played combined just over 1 full AHL season, maybe pump the brakes about how long he has been held in a "shit" league! If the league is so shitty, he should be putting up 2 pts a game, while playing Norris level defence, while coasting, cause he is so "bored"! If he can't motivate himself to play when he has barely been held back, if at all, then he won't amount to anything anyhow. Fortunately he isn't you, and I highly doubt he is pouting cause he had to spend 1-2 years in the AHL before making the NHL jump next year.

Also, your first paragraph is about how you respond to most people on here, putting your words or your own spin on what you think people posted.

 

[norrisnick]

He has played combined just over 1 full AHL season, maybe pump the brakes about how long he has been held in a "shit" league! If the league is so shitty, he should be putting up 2 pts a game, while playing Norris level defence, while coasting, cause he is so "bored"! If he can't motivate himself to play when he has barely been held back, if at all, then he won't amount to anything anyhow. Fortunately he isn't you, and I highly doubt he is pouting cause he had to spend 1-2 years in the AHL before making the NHL jump next year.

Also, your first paragraph is about how you respond to most people on here, putting your words or your own spin on what you think people posted.

My own spin? What other spin is there?

Ed isn't ready for NHL minutes?
Why?
Because he makes mistakes.
Why?
Because he's not used to playing against NHL competition.
Why?
Because he hasn't played against NHL competition.
Why?
Because he's not ready for NHL minutes.

No amount of AHL games will make someone ready to play NHL defense against NHL offenses. None. There will always be an adjustment period to NHL competition. Always. Why put it off?

It's the same bullshit like with Berggren. "Yeah, he can score at a point per game in the AHL but that doesn't mean anything in the NHL..." No f***ing shit... so get him up to the NHL so he can adjust and start scoring against the NHL.

The AHL can't both be the only way to prepare for the NHL as well as completely meaningless because it isn't the NHL. Pick a lane.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

In the NHL, he makes mistakes. When I watch the games he's involved in, he makes good plays offensively and defensively. He also gives up way too many A+ scoring chances. That is a huge deal to me, and I think that is a huge thing that coaches look at as well. If you take "nothing" plays from the other team and turn them into high quality chances, that is a problem, and you won't get into the NHL until you correct it.

That is what I see when watching him play. To support this, while I understand it is a small sample size, here are some numbers I think are reflective of that:

	Goals Against/60	High Danger Chances Against/60
Edvinsson	4.82	12.73
Chiarot	3.3	12.17
Gostisbehere	2.68	11.13
Holl	2.63	11.26
Petry	2.55	9.48

As far as making the playoffs, the number of chances he lets up and goals against he lets up has led to a 3-7-1 record in games he's played. Yes, its a small sample size, but its what we have and I don't think it is pure coincidence


And again, I love him as a prospect. I just don't think he's ready as a 21 year old

Putting aside the fool's errand that is attempting to quantify and isolate the impact of an individual player in a chaotic team sport, your sample size is 11 games, nine of which occurred last season. I am not about to pin a 3-7-1 record on him as you insinuate.

The bigger question you should be asking yourself is why do you love him as a prospect? He is already twenty-one, has already played almost 90 AHL games (plus another season of SHL hockey) and according to you has exhibited processing issues in the NHL game which cause nothing plays to become high danger scoring opportunities (though apparently playing more AHL games will somehow cause that to improve). If you don't think your cited stats will improve over a larger sample size, you are admitting that he hasn't improved or has no reasonable prospect of improving. None of this suggests that anyone should love the prospect.

 

[Gniwder]

My own spin? What other spin is there?

Ed isn't ready for NHL minutes?
Why?
Because he makes mistakes.
Why?
Because he's not used to playing against NHL competition.
Why?
Because he hasn't played against NHL competition.
Why?
Because he's not ready for NHL minutes.

No amount of AHL games will make someone ready to play NHL defense against NHL offenses. None. There will always be an adjustment period to NHL competition. Always. Why put it off?

It's the same bullshit like with Berggren. "Yeah, he can score at a point per game in the AHL but that doesn't mean anything in the NHL..." No f***ing shit... so get him up to the NHL so he can adjust and start scoring against the NHL.

The AHL can't both be the only way to prepare for the NHL as well as completely meaningless because it isn't the NHL. Pick a lane.

Burger is a completely different deal. He got sent down because he won't battle for pucks or play defense. He looked a lot better in his last call up than he did at any point last season, so it really goes against your argument that AHL doesn't make a player more ready for the NHL. He needed to develop a complete game or else he was going to get healthy scratched every season like Sprong.

Ed though.... yeah, I'd like to see him called up.

 

[norrisnick]

Burger is a completely different deal. He got sent down because he won't battle for pucks or play defense. He looked a lot better in his last call up than he did at any point last season, so it really goes against your argument that AHL doesn't make a player more ready for the NHL. He needed to develop a complete game or else he was going to get healthy scratched every season like Sprong.

Ed though.... yeah, I'd like to see him called up.

Then why didn't the other that don't do that get sent down? Waiver exemption... Not working hard enough, making mistakes, all that shit is just a cop out. Meaningless platitudes.

 

[Oddbob]

My own spin? What other spin is there?

Ed isn't ready for NHL minutes?
Why?
Because he makes mistakes.
Why?
Because he's not used to playing against NHL competition.
Why?
Because he hasn't played against NHL competition.
Why?
Because he's not ready for NHL minutes.

No amount of AHL games will make someone ready to play NHL defense against NHL offenses. None. There will always be an adjustment period to NHL competition. Always. Why put it off?

It's the same bullshit like with Berggren. "Yeah, he can score at a point per game in the AHL but that doesn't mean anything in the NHL..." No f***ing shit... so get him up to the NHL so he can adjust and start scoring against the NHL.

The AHL can't both be the only way to prepare for the NHL as well as completely meaningless because it isn't the NHL. Pick a lane.

Most of your rhetorical wasn't said by me. AHL scoring does mean little in the grand scheme, proved by players like Riley Barber or Teemu Pulkkinen scoring there but can't play in the NHL. There are lots of little things that don't show up on the scoresheet that players learn that make the AHL great for many.

 

[norrisnick]

Most of your rhetorical wasn't said by me. AHL scoring does mean little in the grand scheme, proved by players like Riley Barber or Teemu Pulkkinen scoring there but can't play in the NHL. There are lots of little things that don't show up on the scoresheet that players learn that make the AHL great for many.

We don't need these kids to learn how to do neat little things in the AHL. We need them to learn how to do those things in the NHL.

 

[Gniwder]

We don't need these kids to learn how to do neat little things in the AHL. We need them to learn how to do those things in the NHL.

On a team with a full NHL roster, those kids don't get promoted until they do. That's how it works, remember when the Wings were good? I know it's been a long time....

Then why didn't the other that don't do that get sent down? Waiver exemption... Not working hard enough, making mistakes, all that shit is just a cop out. Meaningless platitudes.

I don't see a compete issue with anyone currently on the team, even Sprong is backchecking this season. This is the first time in his career that he hasn't been healthy scratched. He's been healthy scratched 7 seasons in a row, and Burger would have suffered the same fate if he hadn't been sent down. I'll take an extra year in GR over 7 seasons of healthy scratches.

 

[norrisnick]

On a team with a full NHL roster, those kids don't get promoted until they do. That's how it works, remember when the Wings were good? I know it's been a long time....



I don't see a compete issue with anyone currently on the team, even Sprong is backchecking this season. This is the first time in his career that he hasn't been healthy scratched. He's been healthy scratched 7 seasons in a row, and Burger would have suffered the same fate if he hadn't been sent down. I'll take an extra year in GR over 7 seasons of healthy scratches.

You are confusing playing well with rostered vets getting injured. Easy mistake to make.

 

[Henkka]

We don't need these kids to learn how to do neat little things in the AHL. We need them to learn how to do those things in the NHL.

Learning at AHL makes the next step of learning at NHL easier.

Man you are wasting personal energy for this thing Yzerman operates.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Who is the "He" there? Olli? Ben? Jeff? Ghost? Holl?

Edvinsson isn't going to get any more ready to play NHL defense outside of the NHL. At this stage he needs NHL reps. There are are ton of minutes being played by guys that make a ton of mistakes on our NHL roster right now. Ed might actually still learn from them. The guys we have are what they are at this point, with the exception of Mo who still has growing to do.

I guess this is the fundamental point of disagreement.

My opinion, as perhaps this board's biggest fan of Edvinsson, is that there's still plenty of things he can learn at the AHL level. One of his biggest problems is consistency and there's NO reason he can't improve that at a lower level. If he can't put in consistent shift-to-shift and game-to-game performances there, what reason is there to believe he's ready to do it at the NHL level?

 

[Henkka]

Edvinsson just turned 21 yesterday.

When Seider turned 21 he had completed:
71 NHL games, 5+40 = 45 points, 0.63 ppg, -5, 23:07min.

Edvinsson under 21 so far:
11 NHL games, 2+1 = 3 points, 0.27 ppg, -7, 16:38min.

That -7 at 11 games is pretty alarming.

 

[ricky0034]

sometimes I wonder how many people on this forum would defend it if Raymond or Seider weren't already waiver eligible due to games played and Yzerman sent them down to the AHL just because

I don't think i'd like the answer

 

[izlez]

My own spin? What other spin is there?

Ed isn't ready for NHL minutes?
Why?
Because he makes mistakes.
Why?
Because he's not used to playing against NHL competition.
Why?
Because he hasn't played against NHL competition.
Why?
Because he's not ready for NHL minutes.

No amount of AHL games will make someone ready to play NHL defense against NHL offenses. None. There will always be an adjustment period to NHL competition. Always. Why put it off?

It's the same bullshit like with Berggren. "Yeah, he can score at a point per game in the AHL but that doesn't mean anything in the NHL..." No f***ing shit... so get him up to the NHL so he can adjust and start scoring against the NHL.

The AHL can't both be the only way to prepare for the NHL as well as completely meaningless because it isn't the NHL. Pick a lane.

Putting aside the fool's errand that is attempting to quantify and isolate the impact of an individual player in a chaotic team sport, your sample size is 11 games, nine of which occurred last season. I am not about to pin a 3-7-1 record on him as you insinuate.

The bigger question you should be asking yourself is why do you love him as a prospect? He is already twenty-one, has already played almost 90 AHL games (plus another season of SHL hockey) and according to you has exhibited processing issues in the NHL game which cause nothing plays to become high danger scoring opportunities (though apparently playing more AHL games will somehow cause that to improve). If you don't think your cited stats will improve over a larger sample size, you are admitting that he hasn't improved or has no reasonable prospect of improving. None of this suggests that anyone should love the prospect.

I checked out after I posted yesterday. So there's a lot to reply to and I'm just going to keep it simple:

You guys seems to think he can't learn to be a better NHL player by playing in the AHL. I'm not so sure you have used anything other than opinions to support that, and I disagree with it.

NorrisNick's little 5 Why experiment conveniently took a left turn into "because he hasn't played against NHL competition" when it just could have easily took a right turn to "because he needs more time improving/perfecting his game against AHL competition".