HF Habs: Goaltending Prospects/Young Players - Who to Keep Who to Trade

[bobholly39]

And no forwards…

It was weak by cup team standards. They won because of goaltending.

Who do you think would help TO more? Prime Price or prime Marner? Price beat 40 million in cap space tied to four players last year. I know who I’d take. And they just lost another series where goaltending was the margin of difference… again.

I definitely take Price ahead of Marner for a playoff series (not sure there are 5 people in the whole league I take above Price - and "5" might be generous) - but goalies aren't reliable year to year.

Even Carey Price himself - very unreliable. Injuries, off-year, etc. Marner is one of the most consistent performers in the league imo - and he actually had a good playoff run finally. So if it's for more than one playoff run, Marner is the obvious choice to add to your team.

If Price was healthy and playing for the Leafs this playoffs instead of Marner - good chance Toronto fares better than they did and might beat Tampa. Flipside is - Tampa is such a great team - if they faced an even better Toronto team powered by Carey Price - not so sure they still don't find a way to win. Whether it's Vasi stepping up, or Kucherov, or all of them together.

 

[Kent Nilsson]

And no forwards…

It was weak by cup team standards. They won because of goaltending.

Who do you think would help TO more? Prime Price or prime Marner? Price beat 40 million in cap space tied to four players last year. I know who I’d take. And they just lost another series where goaltending was the margin of difference… again.

Nashville is maybe arguable (they lost anyway) but that Boston team was absolutely great. It was a cup contender for a long time afterwards. I made you go from “crap” to “weak by cup standards” I guess

Price + 1.6M player or Marner + Campbell ? Yea I know who I’m taking too. Youre talking as if Price had been 2015 or 2021 playoffs Price his whole career.

 

[Kent Nilsson]

Something around Nylander for Gibson is a trade they could entertain tho.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I definitely take Price ahead of Marner for a playoff series (not sure there are 5 people in the whole league I take above Price - and "5" might be generous) - but goalies aren't reliable year to year.

Even Carey Price himself - very unreliable. Injuries, off-year, etc. Marner is one of the most consistent performers in the league imo - and he actually had a good playoff run finally. So if it's for more than one playoff run, Marner is the obvious choice to add to your team.

If Price was healthy and playing for the Leafs this playoffs instead of Marner - good chance Toronto fares better than they did and might beat Tampa. Flipside is - Tampa is such a great team - if they faced an even better Toronto team powered by Carey Price - not so sure they still don't find a way to win. Whether it's Vasi stepping up, or Kucherov, or all of them together.

Price has been highly reliable in the playoffs in the latter part of his career. Despite bad teams, he leads all goalies for cummulative save% over the last 7 years (before this season).

 

[bobholly39]

Price has been highly reliable in the playoffs in the latter part of his career. Despite bad teams, he leads all goalies for cummulative save% over the last 7 years (before this season).

like I said - I don't know if there are 5 players in the NHL today I'd take above Price entering a playoff run if he were healthy (and, maybe less than 5). So I agree, he's great for playoffs.

But in a "who do you take moving forward" situation, Marner has been one of the most consistent performers in the league for 4 straight years. Price had an off year, missed all of one year to injuries, etc. He's not been reliable in that sense is what I meant.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I dug up bad goalies who went to cup finals just for fun.

Anton Khudobin
MARTIN JONES
40 years old Dwayne Roloson
Michael Leighton
Chris Osgood

But then youre gonna tell me its no wonder their teams lost. To me, Antti Niemi is a more valuable goalie than Carey Price. Cheap and gets the job done.

Again, you can win with a mediocre goalie. Never said otherwise. But your team better be really good and you’re taking a serious risk of him losing a series for you.

Again, I’d much rather have prime Price than Marner on the Leafs. I think they’d win multiple cups.

And you're right... I am going to say those teams lost because of goaltending. Some of those teams were stacked. We've already talked about Detroit... how many cups could they have won? Tons more. Imagine building a team with Lidstrom, Yzerman, Fedorov and then not winning because you cheaped out on the goalie? That is just absolute madness.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Nashville is maybe arguable (they lost anyway) but that Boston team was absolutely great. It was a cup contender for a long time afterwards. I made you go from “crap” to “weak by cup standards” I guess

Price + 1.6M player or Marner + Campbell ? Yea I know who I’m taking too. Youre talking as if Price had been 2015 or 2021 playoffs Price his whole career.

Don't use the strawman garbage. I didn't say they were crap. But Boston was a mediocre club with otherworldy goaltending. They were just under a 50 on puck possession on the season and it’s not good. That's really rare for a cup winning team. They weren't your typical cup winning team. And oddly enough, they had great teams later on but couldn't win. Rask was solid but he was no Thomas. And they got smoked by... Carey Price in 2014 despite being cup favourites.

As for Price, since taking the starter's role in 2011 he was a machine. If the club scored more than 2 goals it was an automatic win. He took a poor team to the finals last year and almost did it in 2014 before getting hurt. As for Marner, he's been a playoff choker his whole career. Does that mean he'll always be one? Of course not. But it's a no brainer to take Price. For Pete's sakes Price beat much better teams while on bad clubs. Imagine him in TO with Matthews, Tavares, Reilly.... they'd have beaten the crap out of Tampa this year. And that would go for Lundqvist as well... he'd have won cups with those guys too.

 

[salbutera]

You can add Huet and Halak as very short term stop gaps. We’ve been extremely lucky with goaltenders. I think the spotlight on goaltending gives whoever comes here a large boost short term until the media and fans inevitably turns on them. Montreal is the best place in the league to play when things are going well, the absolute worst when they’re not.

Don’t agree it’s “luck” - the Habs system since Lemaire took over as coach w Butterfly Penney was built around the G

 

[26Mats]

Notice how long it took to go from Roy to Price...

Let's be ready to wait a while...

 

[cphabs]

We've been lucky over the decades of having some elite goaltending. Now with the uncertainty with Carey's health moving forward, so we have anyone in the system to take over the starters role of so we gave to go outside the organization to find the next.

Is Primeau showing enough in Laval? Any other prospects in the system that looks like a serious contending to take over the throne or is it finally time where the franchise doesn't rely so heavily on goaltending to win games?

Price should not be used in the same sentence as Dryden and Roy. Price was an above average tender that had the franchise playing defensively. Who the hell builds a team around a goalie? Stupid people that’s who. Not a slam on Price, but seriously?!

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Notice how long it took to go from Roy to Price...

Let's be ready to wait a while...

What’s scary is that Price will be our first HOFer since Roy. That’s a long time to wait. Fortunately I think this new generation should yield at least one other. I think CC will be a legit superstar. Then there’s Wright who hopefully becomes one.

 

[26Mats]

What’s scary is that Price will be our first HOFer since Roy. That’s a long time to wait. Fortunately I think this new generation should yield at least one other. I think CC will be a legit superstar. Then there’s Wright who hopefully becomes one.

If we do a full, proper rebuild, look out...

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Don’t agree it’s “luck” - the Habs system since Lemaire took over as coach w Butterfly Penney was built around the G

We never built shit around Price though. And that’s a shame.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Price should not be used in the same sentence as Dryden and Roy. Price was an above average tender that had the franchise playing defensively. Who the hell builds a team around a goalie? Stupid people that’s who. Not a slam on Price, but seriously?!

This is the worst post in the thread.

Swap teams and Price wins cups and the others don't. And Price was more than just an "above average goalie" he's a HOFer who in his prime was one of the best PLAYERS in the league. And as good as he was in the regular season, he was even better in the playoffs.

People think Roy is better than Dryden because Dryden played on a powerhouse. Roy was inconsistent and LOST some playoff series for us. He had two brilliant runs against sub par competition and played most of his career in Montreal on ACTUAL great defensive teams. Then when the team was being dismantled his numbers sunk like a stone and he bolted to Colorado. Price could only dream of playing on those clubs, never mind the ones Dryden played on.

And at least Dryden and Price won series they weren't supposed to. For all the accolades Roy gets for his miracle runs, he never faced a powerhouse and won. We got extremely lucky in '86 and '93 missing the Oilers and Pens. He never won an upset series in his career.

Price did it repeatedly and Ken Dryden beat one of the best teams ever assembled with perhaps the biggest upset win ever in '71. And for all the talk of him being on a powerhouse, that powerhouse was NEVER able to win without him.

As for your "who the hell builds a team around a goalie" nonsense we didn't build shit around him. David Desharnais was his first line center. How the hell is that building anything around him? Absolutely assinine. It's like blaming McDavid for all those years of him not making the playoffs. Was that his fault? Of course not.

 

[Deebs]

This is the worst post in the thread.

Correct

 

[salbutera]

We never built shit around Price though. And that’s a shame.

Agreed - but that’s been an org weakness for over 40-years

People talk about 86 & 93 teams around St Patrick - they weren’t exactly superpowers either and both would’ve been blown out of the water by Oilers & Pens those respective playoffs, combined w a league that was nowhere close to having parity from top to bottom as the NHL post 2004-lockout, and players having no autonomy.

Ever since Lemaire was brought in as coach by Savard the org strategically decided a goalie can win it all as long as you can score the first goal, since Habs were in a league of their own with goaltending advantage over every other team, because of the Allaire brothers butterfly / hybrid system which Steve Penney then St Patrick adopted - recall in the 80s & prior goalies had no prescriptive technique of playing resulting in mediocre goaltending or needing superhuman athletic ability to make saves.

Goaltending advantage, combined w Lemaire’s neutral zone trap strategy was viewed as a sizable differentiator vs the other NHL teams

When goaltending technique became the focus and norm across the league, Habs lost that huge advantage and had no other advantage to fall back on, since there was never a parallel focus on how to properly identify & develop offensive skill which at least 8-10 other teams had put significant focus on - led by proper identification of those skill sets at the draft table.

Hence, Naslund being the only top-23 Habs offensive player in a season over the last 40-years (@ 8OA in 85-86 season) - Damphousse was 24th in 92-93 season and Richer despite scoring 50G twice couldn’t crack top-36 for reference

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Agreed - but that’s been an org weakness for over 40-years

People talk about 86 & 93 teams around St Patrick - they weren’t exactly superpowers either and both would’ve been blown out of the water by Oilers & Pens those respective playoffs, combined w a league that was nowhere close to having parity from top to bottom as the NHL post 2004-lockout, and players having no autonomy.

Ever since Lemaire was brought in as coach by Savard the org strategically decided a goalie can win it all as long as you can score the first goal, since Habs were in a league of their own with goaltending advantage over every other team, because of the Allaire brothers butterfly / hybrid system which Steve Penney then St Patrick adopted - recall in the 80s & prior goalies had no prescriptive technique of playing resulting in mediocre goaltending or needing superhuman athletic ability to make saves.

Goaltending advantage, combined w Lemaire’s neutral zone trap strategy was viewed as a sizable differentiator vs the other NHL teams

When goaltending technique became the focus and norm across the league, Habs lost that huge advantage and had no other advantage to fall back on, since there was never a parallel focus on how to properly identify & develop offensive skill which at least 8-10 other teams had put significant focus on - led by proper identification of those skill sets at the draft table.

Hence, Naslund being the only top-23 Habs offensive player in a season over the last 40-years (@ 8OA in 85-86 season) - Damphousse was 24th in 92-93 season and Richer despite scoring 50G twice couldn’t crack top-36 for reference

Mgmt has been incompetent for a long time. Price was able to cover a lot of that up. We finally seemed to have turned the corner on that front. I just hope they don’t treat goaltending as an afterthought when they rebuild this team.

In fantasy land, it’d be great if Price took another year. We’d tank, get a great pick and then Price comes back the year after and we try to win… unfortunately that’s not very realistic.

So… we should be Lookin for goalie prospects now to build with going forward. Hopefully Primeau pans out.

 

[salbutera]

Mgmt has been incompetent for a long time. Price was able to cover a lot of that up. We finally seemed to have turned the corner on that front. I just hope they don’t treat goaltending as an afterthought when they rebuild this team.

In fantasy land, it’d be great if Price took another year. We’d tank, get a great pick and then Price comes back the year after and we try to win… unfortunately that’s not very realistic.

So… we should be Lookin for goalie prospects now to build with going forward. Hopefully Primeau pans out.

There’s no corner that’s been turned IMO… proof as always will be in the pudding

And Primeau ain’t the answer either IMO…

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

There’s no corner that’s been turned IMO… proof as always will be in the pudding

And Primeau ain’t the answer either IMO…

We’ll, we made some great rebuilding trades. I see a clear direction anyway. I don’t think we’ve ever done a full rebuild and I see that happening now.

 

[salbutera]

We’ll, we made some great rebuilding trades. I see a clear direction anyway. I don’t think we’ve ever done a full rebuild and I see that happening now.

The value of draft picks is only realized once there’s an actual asset to evaluate on the Habs - Gorton’s track record is about on par w Habs of the last 49-years at the draft table….

 

[cphabs]

What’s scary is that Price will be our first HOFer since Roy. That’s a long time to wait. Fortunately I think this new generation should yield at least one other. I think CC will be a legit superstar. Then there’s Wright who hopefully becomes one.

Price? HOF? Lmfao

 

[Adriatic]

Price should not be used in the same sentence as Dryden and Roy. Price was an above average tender that had the franchise playing defensively. Who the hell builds a team around a goalie? Stupid people that’s who. Not a slam on Price, but seriously?!

Expert analysis here

 

[cphabs]

This is the worst post in the thread.

Swap teams and Price wins cups and the others don't. And Price was more than just an "above average goalie" he's a HOFer who in his prime was one of the best PLAYERS in the league. And as good as he was in the regular season, he was even better in the playoffs.

People think Roy is better than Dryden because Dryden played on a powerhouse. Roy was inconsistent and LOST some playoff series for us. He had two brilliant runs against sub par competition and played most of his career in Montreal on ACTUAL great defensive teams. Then when the team was being dismantled his numbers sunk like a stone and he bolted to Colorado. Price could only dream of playing on those clubs, never mind the ones Dryden played on.

And at least Dryden and Price won series they weren't supposed to. For all the accolades Roy gets for his miracle runs, he never faced a powerhouse and won. We got extremely lucky in '86 and '93 missing the Oilers and Pens. He never won an upset series in his career.

Price did it repeatedly and Ken Dryden beat one of the best teams ever assembled with perhaps the biggest upset win ever in '71. And for all the talk of him being on a powerhouse, that powerhouse was NEVER able to win without him.

As for your "who the hell builds a team around a goalie" nonsense we didn't build shit around him. David Desharnais was his first line center. How the hell is that building anything around him? Absolutely assinine. It's like blaming McDavid for all those years of him not making the playoffs. Was that his fault? Of course not.

Just to be clear? You are not only advocating that Price should be in the HOF, but also in the same class as Dryden and Roy… fantastic!
Oh, building a team around a tender is not only players, but a team philosophy and coaching/development.
“worst post in the tread”? Just my opinion and thanks for the feedback!

 

[Cournoyer12]

This is the worst post in the thread.

Swap teams and Price wins cups and the others don't. And Price was more than just an "above average goalie" he's a HOFer who in his prime was one of the best PLAYERS in the league. And as good as he was in the regular season, he was even better in the playoffs.

People think Roy is better than Dryden because Dryden played on a powerhouse. Roy was inconsistent and LOST some playoff series for us. He had two brilliant runs against sub par competition and played most of his career in Montreal on ACTUAL great defensive teams. Then when the team was being dismantled his numbers sunk like a stone and he bolted to Colorado. Price could only dream of playing on those clubs, never mind the ones Dryden played on.

And at least Dryden and Price won series they weren't supposed to. For all the accolades Roy gets for his miracle runs, he never faced a powerhouse and won. We got extremely lucky in '86 and '93 missing the Oilers and Pens. He never won an upset series in his career.

Price did it repeatedly and Ken Dryden beat one of the best teams ever assembled with perhaps the biggest upset win ever in '71. And for all the talk of him being on a powerhouse, that powerhouse was NEVER able to win without him.

As for your "who the hell builds a team around a goalie" nonsense we didn't build shit around him. David Desharnais was his first line center. How the hell is that building anything around him? Absolutely assinine. It's like blaming McDavid for all those years of him not making the playoffs. Was that his fault? Of course not.

Absolutely agree on your comments on Mr. Dryden! For those of us old enough to remember 73-74 when Ken took his sabbatical we were left with Wayne Thomas, Bunny, and Michel Plasse. All good goalies but not of Drydens caliber! If Dryden had stayed that year there never would have been Philadelphia. Took him a year after to get his game back together. Probably could have been a run of 7 consecutive Cups! You cannot nickel and dime his contributions to the DYNASTY! His only drawback was that he had problems with the Russians, but so did alot of great tenders “Except for Rogie “ people have to get over the New Years Eve game and give him the respect he deserves!!

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Just to be clear? You are not only advocating that Price should be in the HOF, but also in the same class as Dryden and Roy… fantastic!
Oh, building a team around a tender is not only players, but a team philosophy and coaching/development.
“worst post in the tread”? Just my opinion and thanks for the feedback!

I’d discuss it with you but… you’re just not worth the time.