HF Habs: Goaltending Prospects/Young Players - Who to Keep Who to Trade

[Cournoyer12]

More like Vézina to Hainsworth to Durnan to Plante to Worsley to Dryden to Roy to Price

Don’t forget Rogie!!

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Goalies are voodoo and irrelevant. You can win a cup with Matt Murray, Jordan Binnington, Brayden Holtby or Corey Crawford.

Last position you have to worry about.

Tell that to the many great teams who went nowhere because of netminding. How the Sens didn’t win a cup is beyond insane. But they went the “good enough” route and got clobbered repeatedly by Belfour.

On the flip side elite goaltending can take you a long way even with a bad team. Is there an elite goalie in the past 30 years who hasn’t at least made it to the finals? The list would be short.

 

[Vachon23]

Idk, I would correlate it more with an aging core but I guess spending their 2015 1st on a goalie didnt help either.

Toronto/Edmonton there is many exemple of teams that could win but they didn't had the goalie

 

[Kent Nilsson]

Tell that to the many great teams who went nowhere because of netminding. How the Sens didn’t win a cup is beyond insane. But they went the “good enough” route and got clobbered repeatedly by Belfour.

On the flip side elite goaltending can take you a long way even with a bad team. Is there an elite goalie in the past 30 years who hasn’t at least made it to the finals? The list would be short.

lol do you have more recent examples than Belfour ? I would be all for 10M goalies if we were allowed unlimited spending.

Most great goalies of the cap era dont have cups

Price
Lundqvist
Rinne
Rask
Bobrovsky
Ryan Miller
Luongo
Bishop
Varlamov

I believe the cap% allowed to these goalies ended up hurting their teams more than having the roster player they cost.

Toronto/Edmonton there is many exemple of teams that could win but they didn't had the goalie

Andersen/Campbell are fine.

Edmonton is a tire fire on defense.

 

[Vachon23]

lol do you have more recent examples than Belfour ? I would be all for 10M goalies if we were allowed unlimited spending.

Most great goalies of the cap era dont have cups

Price
Lundqvist
Rinne
Rask
Bobrovsky
Ryan Miller
Luongo
Bishop
Varlamov

I believe the cap% allowed to these goalies ended up hurting their teams more than having the roster player they cost.



Andersen/Campbell are fine.

Edmonton is a tire fire on defense.

only Varlamov Miller and Bobrovsky haven’t bring there team to the Stanley cup in your list though. Every other goalie have bring there team to the finals

Anderson/Campbell are fine but they are not elite and it’s a reason why Toronto haven’t won anything. If EDM had a good goalie there defence would look way better

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

lol do you have more recent examples than Belfour ? I would be all for 10M goalies if we were allowed unlimited spending.

Most great goalies of the cap era dont have cups

Price
Lundqvist
Rinne
Rask
Bobrovsky
Ryan Miller
Luongo
Bishop
Varlamov

I believe the cap% allowed to these goalies ended up hurting their teams more than having the roster player they cost.



Andersen/Campbell are fine.

Edmonton is a tire fire on defense.

No they don’t have cups but many took crap teams to the finals. Roy, Brodeur, Hasek, Rask, Lundqvist, Price, Kiprusoff, Vasi, Luongo, Fleury, Thomas, Rinne, Holtby… all made it. Some with great teams, some not so much.

Campbell’s good enough? Okay… why’d they lose? Because Vasi showed up in OT game 6 and game 7. I don’t think Campbell lost them the series… but he wasn’t good enough to win it either. Vasi is though. And that’s a big reason why Tampa’s a multi cup winner.

Yes a Matt Murray can get hot. But you can’t count on that. More times than not you’re going to waste a good core.

Do not cheap out on goaltending.

 

[Kent Nilsson]

only Varlamov Miller and Bobrovsky haven’t bring there team to the Stanley cup in your list though. Every other goalie have bring there team to the finals

Anderson/Campbell are fine but they are not elite and it’s a reason why Toronto haven’t won anything. If EDM had a good goalie there defence would look way better

I dug up bad goalies who went to cup finals just for fun.

Anton Khudobin
MARTIN JONES
40 years old Dwayne Roloson
Michael Leighton
Chris Osgood

But then youre gonna tell me its no wonder their teams lost. To me, Antti Niemi is a more valuable goalie than Carey Price. Cheap and gets the job done.

 

[Habs]

Goalies are voodoo and irrelevant. You can win a cup with Matt Murray, Jordan Binnington, Brayden Holtby or Corey Crawford.

Last position you have to worry about.

Just not Price lol

 

[Vachon23]

No they don’t have cups but many took crap teams to the finals. Roy, Brodeur, Hasek, Rask, Lundqvist, Price, Kiprusoff, Vasi, Luongo, Fleury, Thomas, Rinne, Holtby… all made it. Some with great teams, some not so much.

Campbell’s good enough? Okay… why’d they lose? Because Vasi showed up in OT game 6 and game 7. I don’t think Campbell lost them the series… but he wasn’t good enough to win it either. Vasi is though. And that’s a big reason why they’re a multi cup winner.

Yes a Matt Murray can get hot. But you can’t count on that. More times than not you’re going to waste a good core.

Do not cheap out on goaltending.

And without his father death, I'm sure Murray would have become a stud goalie.

He was a stud everywhere he pass before (OHL/AHL) and was on the good track to become a really goalie good goalie before the tragic event and his game as fallen badly since that

 

[Kent Nilsson]

No they don’t have cups but many took crap teams to the finals. Roy, Brodeur, Hasek, Rask, Lundqvist, Price, Kiprusoff, Vasi, Luongo, Fleury, Thomas, Rinne, Holtby… all made it. Some with great teams, some not so much.

Campbell’s good enough? Okay… why’d they lose? Because Vasi showed up in OT game 6 and game 7. I don’t think Campbell lost them the series… but he wasn’t good enough to win it either. Vasi is though. And that’s a big reason why Tampa’s a multi cup winner.

Yes a Matt Murray can get hot. But you can’t count on that. More times than not you’re going to waste a good core.

Do not cheap out on goaltending.

Other than Price and Hasek (best goalie of all time) which of those were on crap teams exactly …? Also what is it with you guys and lowering the bar to cup finals.

Vasi is literally generationnal. You dont aim to find a guy like that.

 

[Vachon23]

I dug up bad goalies who went to cup finals just for fun.

Anton Khudobin
MARTIN JONES
40 years old Dwayne Roloson
Michael Leighton
Chris Osgood

But then youre gonna tell me its no wonder their teams lost. To me, Antti Niemi is a more valuable goalie than Carey Price. Cheap and gets the job done.

Ask Tampa Bay if they would let go their 9m goalie for a cheaper option

 

[bobholly39]

Between Roy and Price was over 10 years. No one in the pipe right now to be the next Price, but you never know, maybe in a few years.

Also - you're forgetting Theodore. He may not have had the career of Roy or Price - but for peak, with his hart season, he was pretty spectacular.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Other than Price and Hasek (best goalie of all time) which of those were on crap teams exactly …? Also what is it with you guys and lowering the bar to cup finals.

Vasi is literally generationnal. You dont aim to find a guy like that.

Vasi is not generational... He's a great goalie on a stacked team. If Lunqvist or Price were on those teams they'd be winning cups.

Stop trying to move the goalposts. First you said it doesn't happen and asked for a more recent example. I show you pretty much every elite goalie in the past 30 years has made the finals and now it's: "Which ones were on bad teams?" You laugh and say "Have you got a more recent example"... for God's sakes look at last year: Price vs Vasi. And Price stole two series for us on the way. He also stole another one the year before against Crosby and Malkin.

Dude... great teams with great goalies will usually beat great teams with mediocre ones... that's common sense. Does it mean that you HAVE to have an elite goalie to win? Of course not. Chicago did it, Pittsburgh... others will do it again in the future. But look what happened in the 70s with Montreal. Dryden won multiple cups with us. He leaves we don't win. He comes back we win again. We win four straight... then we don't win again until '86. Think about the huge upsets over the years... usually it's a goalie leading the way.

A mediocre goalie can win on a great team. But more often than not... they lose. Detroit had some insanely good teams that couldn't win because they had junk and would go up against Brodeur or Roy or some other great goalie and get knocked out. The Sens are another great example. How many strong Philly teams might've made it with great goaltending?

Want to know what pain is? Having a stacked team and losing because the guy you have in net loses the series for you.

It matters.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Ask Tampa Bay if they would let go their 9m goalie for a cheaper option

Ask Steve Yzerman how many more cups Detroit would've won if they had a great goalie in the 90s. As Ottawa if goaltending is important.... Stacked, stacked, stacked... and they still didn't win. That is true pain.

 

[ujju2]

Goalies are voodoo and irrelevant. You can win a cup with Matt Murray, Jordan Binnington, Brayden Holtby or Corey Crawford.

Last position you have to worry about.

Those 4 all either are or were fantastic goaltenders...

 

[Vachon23]

Ask Steve Yzerman how many more cups Detroit would've won if they had a great goalie in the 90s. As Ottawa if goaltending is important.... Stacked, stacked, stacked... and they still didn't win. That is true pain.

No need to ask him, in both team he assembles he choose a goalie in the 1st round to be sure he got a good one.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

No need to ask him, in both team he assembles he choose a goalie in the 1st round to be sure he got a good one.

Excellent point.

And btw, goalies drafted in the first round have a much higher success rate than those taken later. People like to point to goalies taken later on and say it's a crapshoot... it's not. You can get lucky but it's like finding a needle in a haystack.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

One of these goaltenders is not like the other hahaha

Solid goaltending is definitely relevant. There's not a lot of separation between starters/elite goalies today, but having bad goaltending can really kill a season, if not a window.

Going forward, I'd rather go with a tandem of two average starters than 1 elite like Price. They're also not that difficult to find even on the FA market. Pick a solid one on discount from a big name org that gave up on them (like Andersen), or a goaltender that did well in a shitty market and is "underground" because they did not win much on their shitty org (like Kuemper, Raanta).

Some who watch Laval might have a better handle on Primeau, but he has not impressed me...

Primeau has been impressive since the start of the playoffs.

Goalie development is highly unpredictable and takes a lot of time.

People doubted Price too, early on, even after he had won the Butterfield trophy and followed that with a strong NHL rookie season.

 

[Kent Nilsson]

Vasi is not generational... He's a great goalie on a stacked team. If Lunqvist or Price were on those teams they'd be winning cups.

Stop trying to move the goalposts. First you said it doesn't happen and asked for a more recent example. I show you pretty much every elite goalie in the past 30 years has made the finals and now it's: "Which ones were on bad teams?" You laugh and say "Have you got a more recent example"... for God's sakes look at last year: Price vs Vasi. And Price stole two series for us on the way. He also stole another one the year before against Crosby and Malkin.

Dude... great teams with great goalies will usually beat great teams with mediocre ones... that's common sense. Does it mean that you HAVE to have an elite goalie to win? Of course not. Chicago did it, Pittsburgh... others will do it again in the future. But look what happened in the 70s with Montreal. Dryden won multiple cups with us. He leaves we don't win. He comes back we win again. We win four straight... then we don't win again until '86. Think about the huge upsets over the years... usually it's a goalie leading the way.

A mediocre goalie can win on a great team. But more often than not... they lose. Detroit had some insanely good teams that couldn't win because they had junk and would go up against Brodeur or Roy or some other great goalie and get knocked out. The Sens are another great example. How many strong Philly teams might've made it with great goaltending?

Want to know what pain is? Having a stacked team and losing because the guy you have in net loses the series for you.

It matters.

What goal posts am I moving. Your post literally starts with “No they don’t have cups but many took crap teams to the finals”, then proceed to name a bunch of goalies who played on stacked teams.

Again, I live in the cap era. Not sure what lessons can be yield from Ken Dryden.

No need to ask him, in both team he assembles he choose a goalie in the 1st round to be sure he got a good one.

True clearly Stevie Y believes in goaltending but I’m not high on his odds of hitting a completely out of norm goalie twice. We’ll see.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

What goal posts am I moving. Your post literally starts with “No they don’t have cups but many took crap teams to the finals”, then proceed to name a bunch of goalies who played on stacked teams.

Again, I live in the cap era. Not sure what lessons can be yield from Ken Dryden.

In the past ten years:

Rinne, Price, Lundqvist would be the three that come to mind. None of those teams were very good. Thomas also won with a club that wasn't great and upset a much better roster. Bruins would go on to become a much better team later but 2011 they overachieved.

And again, look at the flipside... how many teams would've won with better goaltending? How many rosters were wasted? Imagine if Colorado had Price over the past few years. How many cups would they have? Imagine if Lundqvist had been on Philly during his prime... those teams squandered great years because they lacked the great goalie to put them over the top.

 

[Kent Nilsson]

In the past ten years:

Rinne, Price, Lundqvist would be the three that come to mind. None of those teams were very good. Thomas also won with a club that wasn't great and upset a much better roster. Bruins would go on to become a much better team later but 2011 they overachieved.

And again, look at the flipside... how many teams would've won with better goaltending? How many rosters were wasted? Imagine if Colorado had Price over the past few years. How many cups would they have? Imagine if Lundqvist had been on Philly during his prime... those teams squandered great years because they lacked the great goalie to put them over the top.

The Rinne team had possibly the best defense of the cap era.

Boston had two Hall of Famers in their prime along with beast mode Lucic, prime Krejci, young Marchand. Ive seen worse to say the least.

Saying “what if you add Price to team X” is the whole point. You have to gut $10M in cap and then its not the same team.

 

[Vachon23]

The Rinne team had possibly the best defense of the cap era.

Boston had two Hall of Famers in their prime along with beast mode Lucic, prime Krejci, young Marchand. Ive seen worse to say the least.

Saying “what if you add Price to team X” is the whole point. You have to gut $10M in cap and then its not the same team.

Rinne Rask are still top 5 goalies of there area

You need a good team around those goalies, but it’s important to have a good goalie. Like you can’t only have a #1 C or a #1 Dmen, you need to surround them

 

[abo9]

Holtby was good for a short span and ended up an overpaid anchor. Typical voodoo goalie. The caps would have won the cup with a bunch of equivalent cheaper guys.

If youre spending >10% of your cap on goaltending youre wasting efficiency on more important roster spots.

Holtby was amazing, one of the best goalies in the league, for 5-6 years, then hit by age and injuries. It happens. It's not voodoo goalie, Caps moved on once they realized that he had issues. Guys like Hammond who go on a crazy 20-30 games stretch, or even Binnington, are "Voodoo" goalies.

Holtby was also a beast in the playoffs, Washington doesn't win with a "bunch of cheaper guys".

That's ridiculous. Yes, the separation between goaltenders is uber-tight. But no, you're not giving yourself the best chances of winning by hoping that Jaroslav Halak has a career year during your team's window. And even Halak was paid at 7% of the cap for a while.

It's funny because you mention Vasilevskiy as a generational goaltender too... he's just as "voodoo" as any other elite goaltender. He just happened to play on the most successful team of the modern era. Put Holtby age 22-27 on those Tampa teams and they probably win as much or more than with Vasilevskiy.

If Vasi suddenly turns to poop at age 30, does he suddenly loses the "generational" tag you label him with?

 

[Paddyjack]

And without his father death, I'm sure Murray would have become a stud goalie.

He was a stud everywhere he pass before (OHL/AHL) and was on the good track to become a really goalie good goalie before the tragic event and his game as fallen badly since that

Sometimes I wonder if there isn't something else underlying this fall from grace. Maybe a nagging injury that slow him down a little. But anyway I don't think he qualifies as "winning the Cup with a bad goalie" category as others in this thread classify him. He was pretty good those years and something happened afterward.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The Rinne team had possibly the best defense of the cap era.

And no forwards…

Boston had two Hall of Famers in their prime along with beast mode Lucic, prime Krejci, young Marchand. Ive seen worse to say the least.

It was weak by cup team standards. They won because of goaltending.

Saying “what if you add Price to team X” is the whole point. You have to gut $10M in cap and then its not the same team.

Who do you think would help TO more? Prime Price or prime Marner? Price beat 40 million in cap space tied to four players last year. I know who I’d take. And they just lost another series where goaltending was the margin of difference… again.