Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part VIII

[Micklebot]

Two can play at the "quote Garrioch for what-if scenarios" game:


Ottawa Senators looking to trade for a forward - NHL Trade Rumors

What are you even trying to prove? That we all knew that center was a problem? Nobody is denying that. Tierney being on the block was not tied to us needing a center, him being in our top 12 was evidence that center was a problem

It was never Tierney or acquire a top 6 center like Hertl, it was we need a top 6 center, also Tierney sucks so we need to dump him

 

[swiftwin]

What are you even trying to prove? That we all knew that center was a problem? Nobody is denying that. Tierney being on the block was not tied to us needing a center, him being in our top 12 was evidence that center was a problem

All I'm trying to say is that losing 3 of our top 5 centers was a huge blow no matter how you slice it.

Everyone is acting like Pinto shouldn't count because he's a rookie, but that's BS. He absolutely was a top 5 center on this team. As was White. The team would be much better with those two in the lineup instead of Shaw and Gambrell.

 

[Micklebot]

All I'm trying to say is that losing 3 of our top 5 centers was a huge blow no matter how you slice it.

Everyone is acting like Pinto shouldn't count because he's a rookie, but that's BS. He absolutely was a top 5 center on this team. As was White. The team would be much better with those two in the lineup instead of Shaw and Gambrell.

Well no, everyone isn't acting like that. They are suggesting that we went into the season vulnerable because we only had one proven top 6 center. We were fortunate that Pinto was playing well in a top 6 role, but shouldn't have been relying on him in the first place because everybody knew we lacked at center. Tierney was on the trading block because he wasn't cutting, people were questioning White's ability to play in the top 9 and saw this as a make or break season potentially leading to a buyout if he didn't do well, and then there was Pinto and Brown.

 

[DrEasy]

Well no, everyone isn't acting like that. They are suggesting that we went into the season vulnerable because we only had one proven top 6 center. We were fortunate that Pinto was playing well in a top 6 role, but shouldn't have been relying on him in the first place because everybody knew we lacked at center. Tierney was on the trading block because he wasn't cutting, people were questioning White's ability to play in the top 9 and saw this as a make or break season potentially leading to a buyout if he didn't do well, and then there was Pinto and Brown.

Not to mention that with Dadonov being traded we had a new hole at RW, and White was also a consideration to play RW to make up for that hole. Only of course if we could acquire a centre to make that move possible.

 

[topshelf15]

All I'm trying to say is that losing 3 of our top 5 centers was a huge blow no matter how you slice it.

Everyone is acting like Pinto shouldn't count because he's a rookie, but that's BS. He absolutely was a top 5 center on this team. As was White. The team would be much better with those two in the lineup instead of Shaw and Gambrell.

Yep there is no team in the league that could replace that...It still doesnt excuse the lack of finding better talent in the offseason ,but taking two nhl calibre top 9 centers off any team would sink them

 

[swiftwin]

Well no, everyone isn't acting like that. They are suggesting that we went into the season vulnerable because we only had one proven top 6 center. We were fortunate that Pinto was playing well in a top 6 role, but shouldn't have been relying on him in the first place because everybody knew we lacked at center. Tierney was on the trading block because he wasn't cutting, people were questioning White's ability to play in the top 9 and saw this as a make or break season potentially leading to a buyout if he didn't do well, and then there was Pinto and Brown.

So, what you're saying is that we had 3 players capable of stepping into a 2nd line role going into the season (but with question marks)? That's exactly what we should be doing as a rebuilding team. You roll the dice and hope one of those three takes over that role. Unfortunately two of them got hurt.

We had two young players with the potential of stepping into that role (White and Pinto), with Tierney as an insulation fallback (he has played in a top 6 role in the past, both in Ottawa and San Jose). I don't see the point in going out and getting another established top 6 center to clutter things up when it's clear we're not contending this season. We wanted one of White or Pinto to step up as a 2C, with Tierney as a benchmark to pass (or fallback to fall onto).

Edit: I'm also not even including Brown. You could easily say that we had 4 potential options at 2C going into the season. White, Brown and Pinto, with Tierney as the fallback. When we saw Pinto was the real deal, we traded Brown, then White and Pinto got hurt. Really shitty luck.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Can we please just leave Clark Bishop out of the conversation. That's a role that should be easily replaceable on the fly.

 

[swiftwin]

Can we please just leave Clark Bishop out of the conversation. That's a role that should be easily replaceable on the fly.

I agree, and it has been replaced on the fly by Gambrell.

 

[topshelf15]

Even White who is generally a brick on offense,would be better than anything else we could throw out there after Norris

 

[Micklebot]

So, what you're saying is that we had 3 players capable of stepping into a 2nd line role going into the season (but with question marks)? That's exactly what we should be doing as a rebuilding team. You roll the dice and hope one of those three takes over that role. Unfortunately two of them got hurt.

We had two young players with the potential of stepping into that role (White and Pinto), with Tierney as an insulation fallback (he has played in a top 6 role in the past, both in Ottawa and San Jose). I don't see the point in going out and getting another established top 6 center to clutter things up when it's clear we're not contending this season. We wanted one of White or Pinto to step up as a 2C, with Tierney as a benchmark to pass (or fallback to fall onto).

Good lord that's a generous description...

We lacked a 2nd line center, and if we're being honest, it was really a #1we lacked. We had 2 guys who were failing at being 2nd line centers when give the chance previously to the point that we were trying to trade one and are contemplating a buyout of the other, oh and a rookie with 12 games to his name, but yeah, exactly what you want. Glad you aren't in charge...

 

[Wondercarrot]

So, what you're saying is that we had 3 players capable of stepping into a 2nd line role going into the season (but with question marks)? That's exactly what we should be doing as a rebuilding team. You roll the dice and hope one of those three takes over that role. Unfortunately two of them got hurt.

We had two young players with the potential of stepping into that role (White and Pinto), with Tierney as an insulation fallback (he has played in a top 6 role in the past, both in Ottawa and San Jose). I don't see the point in going out and getting another established top 6 center to clutter things up when it's clear we're not contending this season. We wanted one of White or Pinto to step up as a 2C, with Tierney as a benchmark to pass (or fallback to fall onto).

Edit: I'm also not even including Brown. You could easily say that we had 4 potential options at 2C going into the season. White, Brown and Pinto, with Tierney as the fallback. When we saw Pinto was the real deal, we traded Brown, then White and Pinto got hurt. Really shitty luck.

when the organization itself states we need a top 6 Center and that were going to go out and get a top Center, I think it’s safe uncontroversial ground to say we needed a top 6 Center.

 

[Bileur]

Don’t forget about Pontus Aberg and Kole Sherwood, they were supposed to be the Sens #6 and 8 RW. Had they performed to expectation they’re probably scratching for the playoffs.

 

[swiftwin]

Good lord that's a generous description...

We lacked a 2nd line center, and if we're being honest, it was really a #1we lacked. We had 2 guys who were failing at being 2nd line centers when give the chance previously to the point that we were trying to trade one and are contemplating a buyout of the other, oh and a rookie with 12 games to his name, but yeah, exactly what you want. Glad you aren't in charge...

You know what the funny thing is? This could all be a turning point in the rebuild if Stutzle keeps playing well at center and ends up staying there permanently. Otherwise, I don't think DJ tries Stutzle at center this season (if ever).

 

[swiftwin]

when the organization itself states we need a top 6 Center and that were going to go out and get a top Center, I think it’s safe uncontroversial ground to say we needed a top 6 Center.

You're mixing up Melnyk and Dorion.

 

[topshelf15]

You know what the funny thing is? This could all be a turning point in the rebuild if Stutzle keeps playing well at center and ends up staying there permanently. Otherwise, I don't think DJ tries Stutzle at center this season (if ever).

I wish he would put Bath and Formenton with him,Move Brown up to the first line, move Paul in a better slot for him on the 3rd line

 

[Wondercarrot]

You're mixing up Melnyk and Dorion.

im not mixing them up, you think Melnyk floated that out and hadn’t had conversations with Dorion?
I think in the end they decided not to do it and hoped what they had was enough.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

If he had no intention to compete and was expecting another lottery finish, he didn't do a bad job.

If he wanted the team to compete more and potentially aim to be a bubble team, there's no way around needing multiple quality additions, even with Pinto in the lineup.

You can't say it's going to be option 2 if you don't do any of what it takes to get to option 2. That's the confusing part as he seems genuinely surprised and disappointed with the results, but he followed through on option 1, not 2, so why the surprise?

 

[swiftwin]

im not mixing them up, you think Melnyk floated that out and hadn’t had conversations with Dorion?
I think in the end they decided not to do it and hoped what they had was enough.

Yes. This is Melnyk we're talking about here.

 

[swiftwin]

If he had no intention to compete and was expecting another lottery finish, he didn't do a bad job.

If he wanted the team to compete more and potentially aim to be a bubble team, there's no way around needing multiple quality additions, even with Pinto in the lineup.

You can't say it's going to be option 2 if you don't do any of what it takes to get to option 2. That's the confusing part as he seems genuinely surprised and disappointed with the results, but he followed through on option 1, not 2, so why the surprise?

Let's wait until the end of the season before making declarations like this?

Last year, we came close to being a bubble team after a similarly slow start. Had it been a full 82 games, there was a small chance we could have made the playoffs, or at the very least just a couple points outside.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Let's wait until the end of the season before making declarations like this?

Last year, we came close to being a bubble team after a similarly slow start. Had it been a full 82 games, there was a small chance we could have made the playoffs, or at the very least just a couple points outside.

Shortened season in a crappy Canadian division long after playoff hopes were gone. Way too many variables involved there to be relying on that as your assessment to move forward with any sort of confidence.

Based on it not carrying over to this season, it appears to be a bit of an outlier. If some are telling you that they predicted it, then it happened, what are you arguing?

 

[Wondercarrot]

Yes. This is Melnyk we're talking about here.

lol sure, I still think that comment elicits conversations with Pierre.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

lol sure, I still think that comment elicits conversations with Pierre.

Probably not

 

[Beech]

Let's wait until the end of the season before making declarations like this?

Last year, we came close to being a bubble team after a similarly slow start. Had it been a full 82 games, there was a small chance we could have made the playoffs, or at the very least just a couple points outside.

a playoff team needs 95 points to capture 8th spot. 95 points in a 82 game season is a 0.58 point ratio.

So the Sens need to get ~ 72 points from games 21 to 82 to "play at a level indicative of a playoff bubble team"....So far, 4 points. They will need 62-68 more.

A point percentage of 58% should be easy to track. By game 41, we should be able to see if they are close. By game 41, they need to be at around 30-35 points. By game 61, 51-58 points. And by season's end, 74-82 points.

Measurables....

 

[coladin]

Come on. Talent wise and hockey IQ wise, Pinto looked ready to all, sure.

But management ought to be able to assume that a rookie with tough assignments is likely to get banged up here and there, and have a contingency plan in place based on that elevated risk. Can't foresee that he'd miss the season, but would be prudent to assume you aren't getting 82 high quality starts in the top 6 out of a rookie.

It's a fumble from a team building perspective, plain and simple.

No, management ought not to assume that. That is again, revisionist and quite frankly too convenient. The contingency was White. The contingency plan was Bishop. You take 3 of your top 5 ceters out, what do people expect? Ottawa did not lose a RW, LW and a C. Three centers

 

[coladin]

If people are saying the Sens were wrong to have "pinned their hopes on a kid with 12 NHL games" (Pinto) and that therefore they are "stepping on Pinto's head", well those people are wrong.

What reasonable people are saying is that even if the Sens team had both Pinto and White in the lineup, that probably wouldn't be enough for them to have a significantly better record than they have. Slightly better maybe, but probably still very disappointing.

Without those injuries we will never know, but Pinto is a special player who simply earned everything he got last year, came to camp and pushed his way up to the 2nd line, and we don't know how good he could have been. Don't forget there was Calder talk. Hard to say without Covid, but I have no problem believeing that they would be .500 right now