Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part VIII

[LuckyPierre]

We did it last year with Norris as our #1C, and had even less experience than Pinto. We were asking Pinto to be a #2 or #3, along with White.

I get that it's important to have a plan B, C, D and E when you're a contender. But should you really spend the assets for a plan D and E when you're not contending in any way?

Seeing as the GM who left us dangerously thin and inexperienced at a crucial position is the same GM that dealt Zibanejad away and planned this rebuild for years.. and then proclaimed it was over.. yes.

 

[Masked]

Not me. I remember noting that the top team from the previous year was Edmonton who placed 12th (iirc) and the next best was Toronto that placed 14th (iirc). Didn't look like a strong division to me before the season began.

It was a balanced division with only the Senators expected to be a bottom feeder. It didn't have any of the best teams in the league but there was only one team that didn't make the playoffs the previous season.

Assen na yo.

 

[Micklebot]

We did it last year with Norris as our #1C, and had even less experience than Pinto. We were asking Pinto to be a #2 or #3, along with White.

I get that it's important to have a plan B, C, D and E when you're a contender. But should you really spend the assets for a plan D and E when you're not contending in any way?

We didn't really do it last year with Norris, we had Stepan, White and Tierney as insulation, heck Anisimov was even coming off a 15 goal season. Norris forced his way onto the team and took a spot, we didn't rely on him going in we had backup plans, and that's before even considering L.Brown

Pinto was getting pencilled into the top 6 before the season started, zero thought to him starting in Belleville.

I emphasize with the team because White was our insulation for Pinto, and that really thrust him into a key role, but the difference between our plan with him and with Norris is we we put obstacles in his path. We didn't really do much of that with Pinto, and the ones that were there got hurt.

 

[RyCam]

So confused.

When things are going not well, and your manager says the buck stops with me, and how we should be better.....shouldn't the next words be, ..." I submit my resignation immediately.."?

how is simply saying you screwed this up, all the repercussions that's are coming.

It's just a roundabout way of saying "Everyone and their mother knows it's my fault and I'm going to kind of admit to it but not take any responsibility and instead try to spread the blame"

I have zero respect for Dorion as a GM.

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

It's just a roundabout way of saying "Everyone and their mother knows it's my fault and I'm going to kind of admit to it but not take any responsibility and instead try to spread the blame"

I have zero respect for Dorion as a GM.

Yep. A direct quote from the press conference:

“I’m not going to name players, but a lot of players on this team have underperformed this year. The players have to step up. The coaching staff has to step up. The general manager has to step up. We all have to be better.”

Deflecting some of the responsibility even as he claims to be taking total responsibility is so par for the course.

 

[swiftwin]

We didn't really do it last year with Norris, we had Stepan, White and Tierney as insulation, heck Anisimov was even coming off a 15 goal season. Norris forced his way onto the team and took a spot, we didn't rely on him going in we had backup plans, and that's before even considering L.Brown

Pinto was getting pencilled into the top 6 before the season started, zero thought to him starting in Belleville.

I emphasize with the team because White was our insulation for Pinto, and that really thrust him into a key role, but the difference between our plan with him and with Norris is we we put obstacles in his path. We didn't really do much of that with Pinto, and the ones that were there got hurt.

Tierney was penciled in as the #2C at the start of training camp. Followed by White, Bishop and Pinto. But we all knew there was a very good chance Pinto would steal a spot, but I wouldn't say it was penciled in.

No matter how you slice it, we lost 3 of our top 5 centers right at the start of the season.

 

[Micklebot]

Tierney was penciled in as the #2C at the start of training camp. Followed by White, Bishop and Pinto. But we all knew there was a very good chance Pinto would steal a spot, but I wouldn't say it was penciled in.

No matter how you slice it, we lost 3 of our top 5 centers right at the start of the season.

According to who?

The Senators didn’t even have Chris Tierney pencilled into this group when the season got under way but with little trade value, he’s back and, by all accounts, determined to push for more time. If that’s the case, he’ll be in the mix for the second line with Colin White and Shane Pinto.

They were literally trying to trade Tierney and couldn't. They most certainly were not counting on him to be their 2nd line center.

 

[Joeyjoejoe]

Since he has taken over the team, the team's winning percentage is .430, 2nd worse only to Buffalo .422 who has gone through multiple regime changes.

Detroit is .443.

It is not his 6th season as the GM and this season's winning percentage is worse than the previous 5 years.

 

[TheDebater]

 

[Wondercarrot]

Tierney was penciled in as the #2C at the start of training camp. Followed by White, Bishop and Pinto. But we all knew there was a very good chance Pinto would steal a spot, but I wouldn't say it was penciled in.

No matter how you slice it, we lost 3 of our top 5 centers right at the start of the season.

i thought they were pencilling in the top 6 Center they said they needed and we’re going to acquire?
Seems like that plan they said they were going to follow would have been helpful to follow.

 

[Alfie11]

The questions I wish someone would ask about the off-season, even if they would probably go unanswered:

-Did the team think they could move Tierney in order to bring someone new and and found no takers?
-Did they wait to see where Bradys number ended up before making any moves and then found themselves out of money and available players to acquire?

 

[Senator Stanley]

According to who?


They were literally trying to trade Tierney and couldn't. They most certainly were not counting on him to be their 2nd line center.

IIRC Tierney was given the first shot at the 2nd line centre spot during training camp.

Senators camp Day 1: What's up with Brady Tkachuk? Who will be captain? Who's the No. 2 center?

 

[swiftwin]

According to who?


They were literally trying to trade Tierney and couldn't. They most certainly were not counting on him to be their 2nd line center.

What? It was widely publicized that Tierney started camp as the #2C. There was lots on consternation on whether Pinto would even make the team or get sent down. It wasn't until the end of training camp that it became clear that Pinto was here to stay based on his performance in the pre-season games.

Here's DJ Smith on day 1 of training camp:

Chris Tierney will get the first look on the second line at centre. Tierney who was injured prior to the start of last season, never really got it going. Heading the final year of his contract, the 27-year old certainly has something to prove.
“Chris Tierney right now will start training camp in that spot,” Smith announced. “The best players are going to play. The player that can help us win the most is going to play there. If you call Nick Paul essentially a left winger, and that’s what he really is – any given night he could be the best player and they can be the best line. Ultimately, it’s whomever gives us the best chance of winning. Chris has the most experience, obviously of the group. He’s had an injury-free summer. He was injured in the summer before, so he was able to train. He’s come in, in much better shape. We’ll see how he looks. We know “Whitey” (Colin White) finished really well in the second half last year and he’ll get looks. We don’t want to put too much on Shane Pinto‘s plate. He played 12 games at the end of the year. Coming back in your second year, training camp and exhibition games will dictate if hw belongs at the National Hockey League level. We’ve got other players, Logan Brown who you know, now has an opportunity to prove he’s a NHL player. It’s fair to say the position is wide open. The best player will get that job.”

Day One of Senators Training Camp, No Brady, But Reasons For Optimism

Also, some other notes:

Last year, there was a real focus on making sure the young players earned their spots in the lineup. And while the team has successfully integrated a bunch of those key youngsters into the lineup, there are more on the way. And those guys will have to earn it too. Shane Pinto, in particular, seems like he’s going to have beat out some of the vets for a job rather than just have it handed to him. Chris Tierney has been playing on what looks like a second line with Tim Stützle and Connor Brown and it seems like that’s his spot to lose, at this point. We’ll see if one of the younger guys, as in Shane Pinto and Logan Brown, can take it away from him in Camp and through the preseason.

- Training Camp Continues in Ottawa

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

I know people are all like "Sens pinned their hopes on a kid with 12 NHL games." So what. No one complained around here. The guy is that type of player, clearly evident in everything he does. He is that type of guy, and yeah, he has 12 games, but when you know...you know. It is so funny, or sad, that people all of a sudden, who know what the Senators have in Shane Pinto, the disrespect, because they step on Pinto's head to get to their keyboard to blast Dorion. They are all out there, Mendes, Nichols, Stevenson, Lloyd, etc... lining up saying in hindsight, bad move. Well, any 2nd line center is going to be a big hole. But at least there is Colin White? Nope. He gone too

If people are saying the Sens were wrong to have "pinned their hopes on a kid with 12 NHL games" (Pinto) and that therefore they are "stepping on Pinto's head", well those people are wrong.

What reasonable people are saying is that even if the Sens team had both Pinto and White in the lineup, that probably wouldn't be enough for them to have a significantly better record than they have. Slightly better maybe, but probably still very disappointing.

 

[cudi]

they gave Tierney a shot at 2C in training camp due to their failure to bring in a top6 C and the fact they really had no better options besides Pinto who shouldnt be thrust into that role without some insulation.

 

[Micklebot]

What? It was widely publicized that Tierney started camp as the #2C. There was lots on consternation on whether Pinto would even make the team or get sent down. It wasn't until the end of training camp that it became clear that Pinto was here to stay based on his performance in the pre-season games.

Here's DJ Smith on day 1 of training camp:



Also, some other notes:

There is a difference between giving a guy the first look and pencilling them in. They were literally trying to trade the guy, he wasn't part of the plan. The coach gave the vet the first shot at it when he really didn't have much in the way of options which isn't a surprise, nor is saying the rookie needs to earn it, but the stark reality is Tierney wasn't in the plans for a reason. They didn't keep him to insulate Pinto, they tried to send him out just like they did with Dadonov.

 

[DrEasy]

Even the owner himself said we needed a top 6 centre. All off-season posters here were coming up with trade proposals to acquire someone, so it's not like we were content with going in with Pinto as our #2. A properly built team shouldn't start the season with the centre depth we had, even with a healthy Pinto and White.

 

[swiftwin]

Going into training camp, this was the center depth chart:

Full time NHLers
Norris
Tierney
White

Rookies (Playing for a top 9 role)
Pinto
LBrown

Part Time NHLers (Playing for a 4th line if neither rookie makes the team / 13th forward role if one of Brown/Pinto makes the team)
Bishop
Kelly (Rookie)

AHLers
Shaw
Agozzino
Kastelic

As training camp progressed, it looked clear that Pinto was easily going to beat out Logan Brown, so we traded Brown for Sanford on Sept 25 to help shore up the RW depth, effectively causing us to lose 4 centers in the span of a few weeks:

Sept 25: Lost Brown to trade
Sept 29: Lost Bishop to injury
Oct 4: Lost White to injury
Oct 20: Lost Pinto to injury

We probably would of held onto Brown if we had known these injures were coming.

 

[swiftwin]

There is a difference between giving a guy the first look and pencilling them in. They were literally trying to trade the guy, he wasn't part of the plan. The coach gave the vet the first shot at it when he really didn't have much in the way of options which isn't a surprise, nor is saying the rookie needs to earn it, but the stark reality is Tierney wasn't in the plans for a reason. They didn't keep him to insulate Pinto, they tried to send him out just like they did with Dadonov.

This is purely speculation on your part. If we had moved out Tierney, we likely would have brought in a different center in his place to help insulate Pinto.

 

[Micklebot]

This is purely speculation on your part. If we had moved out Tierney, we likely would have brought in a different center in his place to help insulate Pinto.

It amazes me that you accuse me of speculation when I provide a quote from Garrioch that we were trying to trade Tierney, then follow it with completely unsubstantiated speculation of your own that had we traded him we surely would have acquired someone else.

 

[Micklebot]

Even the owner himself said we needed a top 6 centre. All off-season posters here were coming up with trade proposals to acquire someone, so it's not like we were content with going in with Pinto as our #2. A properly built team shouldn't start the season with the centre depth we had, even with a healthy Pinto and White.

Agreed. And Tierney was not cutting it.

We didn't have insulation in place like we did for Norris a year earlier, and injuries exacerbated the situation

 

[swiftwin]

I know people are all like "Sens pinned their hopes on a kid with 12 NHL games." So what. No one complained around here. The guy is that type of player, clearly evident in everything he does. He is that type of guy, and yeah, he has 12 games, but when you know...you know. It is so funny, or sad, that people all of a sudden, who know what the Senators have in Shane Pinto, the disrespect, because they step on Pinto's head to get to their keyboard to blast Dorion. They are all out there, Mendes, Nichols, Stevenson, Lloyd, etc... lining up saying in hindsight, bad move. Well, any 2nd line center is going to be a big hole. But at least there is Colin White? Nope. He gone too

Yeah, it's kind of insane how everyone that was in love with having Pinto as a 2C, are now suddenly flipping on him now that it's convenient for their narrative. The worst part is that it's not even because of his play. He's injured.

 

[cudi]

Yeah, it's kind of insane how everyone that was in love with having Pinto as a 2C, are now suddenly flipping on him now that it's convenient for their narrative. The worst part is that it's not even because of his play. He's injured.

maybe, just maybe, some of us didnt flipflop because we thought Pinto should be a #3C to start his career and still think that now. But everything has to be black and white right

 

[swiftwin]

It amazes me that you accuse me of speculation when I provide a quote from Garrioch that we were trying to trade Tierney, then follow it with completely unsubstantiated speculation of your own that had we traded him we surely would have acquired someone else.

Two can play at the "quote Garrioch for what-if scenarios" game:

Garrioch went on to say, the Senators have held talks with the San Jose Sharks about centre Tomas Hertl. New York Rangers centre Ryan Strome may make sense if the Rangers trade for Eichel. Chicago is also trying to move centre Dylan Strome and Ottawa has shown mild interest there.

Ottawa Senators looking to trade for a forward - NHL Trade Rumors

 

[Micklebot]

Yeah, it's kind of insane how everyone that was in love with having Pinto as a 2C, are now suddenly flipping on him now that it's convenient for their narrative. The worst part is that it's not even because of his play. He's injured.

Which is why everyone was discussing trade proposals all offseason for guys to push Pinto to the third line or Belleville?