Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

But complaining about the complainers is totally different?

I'd say the complaining about the complainer who complained about the complainer complaining about others complaining is the worst.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Since 2015.. top 10 picked defensemen, with only 3 exceptions, have developed into star D men.

from 2015-2020... 6 years.. 16 dmen taken in the top 10...3 failed...13 are stars.. of the 3 failures, 2 have actually played games, but are seen as 5/6 dmen.

Korch.
has a 13 in 16 chance of being a star. ~ 81.25%
has a 2/16 chance of becoming a 5-6 Dman ~ 12.5%
has a 1/16 chance of being a complete bust ~ 6.25%

Essentially the debate on what the Sens gave up is no debate. They, for all intensive purposes, traded a star D man for DBc.

If DBC stays, he better, and I mean better become a consistent 40 goal man,,,, and does well in the playoffs. If he is traded away, he better fetch a quality player, on par with a star Dman.

otherwise that trade will be a huge mistake.

We’ll find out in 3-5 years if Korch is one of those guys.

 

[Beech]

“why trade for Debrincart when you're not in your window?”

Because he was available and to hopefully have him, when your team‘s window opens.

Are you suggesting that GMs should only make trades, when they’re “in their window”?
If yes, how would a team get into their window?

——————————————————

Are you suggesting that Ottawa would have better off with Kevin Korchinski, Paul Ludwinski and next year‘s third rounder, instead of having DBC in the lineup for the past season?
——————————————————

How do you know IF DBC is traded, it will be for a loss? (assume you meant loss)
PD is not trading a 40 goal scorer….think DBC had 27 goals.
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was he available or was he dumped on a sucker.

Chicago traded him and Kirby Doch to Montreal. A 22 and a 24 year old.. Makes no sense.. at 22 and 24, both had 6-7 years and could be kept around for the rebuild. Most rebuilds are 3-4 years. Chicago started in 2018...Doch came in 2019.

These were dumps. Chicago knew they were crap.

WE AND Montreal DID THEM ONE HUGE FAVOUR. TOOK THEIR SALARIES, THEIR POOR PLAY, GAVE Chicago BACK high picks.... sorry about the caps . big fingers

 

[Golden_Jet]

was he available or was he dumped on a sucker.

Chicago traded him and Kirby Doch to Montreal. A 22 and a 24 year old.. Makes no sense.. at 22 and 24, both had 6-7 years and could be kept around for the rebuild. Most rebuilds are 3-4 years. Chicago started in 2018...Doch came in 2019.

These were dumps. Chicago knew they were crap.

WE AND Montreal DID THEM ONE HUGE FAVOUR. TOOK THEIR SALARIES, THEIR POOR PLAY, GAVE Chicago BACK high picks.... sorry about the caps . big fingers

They wanted best chance at Bedard and it worked.

 

[Beech]

We’ll find out in 3-5 years if Korch is one of those guys.

try next year.

everyone of the 13, showed his promise in his rookie year. Most were rookies by year 2 (past draft... I think, I will have to look again to be sure). Jake Sanderson was year 3 past draft..

It may be possible that come next May, Mr. Korch. is a top 4 d man, heading towards 1/2 status.

Ouch... for a 5' 7" one way player, who is overpaid, may not want to be here. He will make Bobby Ryan look good.

 

[Beech]

They wanted best chance at Bedard and it worked.

Stick Dach and DBC on the 4th line and you achieve the same thing. Bring up some ECHL goalie and same thing.

Dumps and we and Montreal are chumps.

Like Matt Murray being available at 26!!! 2 time cup winner, just entering his prime.. we now see. At least Murray was a second round pick.. not a possible 1-2 D man.

 

[Tuna99]

the poster seems to know the original trade was a massive mistake, and if traded away, it will be a loss (he said “lose” but assume he meant loss).

So he is slagging PD for making the trade, even before we know where DBC ends up long term, and for whatever return from a trade he also assumes in going to be made.

It also seems that he expected PD to have known, a year ago, when the trade was made, that DBC would not have as good of a season as he did in Chicago, and the reasons (injuries) why.

Not sure if you've heard of Mark Stone but was traded and a $76 million contract was announced 3 seconds after the trade was made.

Let's see what the ADB return is, I'm just going off of Dorion's inability to fix his mistakes. Dorion gets rid of his mistakes, he does not fix them.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Stick Dach and DBC on the 4th line and you achieve the same thing. Bring up some ECHL goalie and same thing.

Dumps and we and Montreal are chumps.

Like Matt Murray being available at 26!!! 2 time cup winner, just entering his prime.. we now see. At least Murray was a second round pick.. not a possible 1-2 D man.

No coach plays DBC on fourth line.

 

[Tuna99]

You can but a lot of players won’t commit to 8 years until , you know what city is like, teammates are like, etc.

have you heard of Matthew Tkachuk or Mark Stone?

 

[Golden_Jet]

have you heard of Matthew Tkachuk or Mark Stone?

Did you read a “lot of” , never said everyone.
2 no tax southern teams vs Ottawa hmmm

 

[Knave]

Again more obfuscation.

The problem isn't that Dorion gambled and might lose. The problem is he has traded away the majority of our "future" assets, the majority of our "build" assets.

And what was the result of Dorion betting everything on right here and right now? We missed the playoffs.

A GM normally doesn't sell out his future until he believes he has a playoff team and he needs extra pieces to make a deep run. The Ottawa Senators have sold out their future to fail to make the playoffs and we might be trading away a top 6 forward in the offseason. LMAO. Emphasis on away. We are not gaining another piece for right here right now, we might be losing one.

You know what this looks like? This is like Brian Burke trading away all Toronto's 1st round picks for that Phil Kessel offersheet. He was fired a few years later. Meanwhile we're done with our 6th season of missed playoffs with Dorion at the helm and people want to pretend this is some masterclass in being a general manager. Unbelievable.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Again more obfuscation.

The problem isn't that Dorion gambled and might lose. The problem is he has traded away the majority of our "future" assets, the majority of our "build" assets.

And what was the result of Dorion betting everything on right here and right now? We missed the playoffs.

A GM normally doesn't sell out his future until he believes he has a playoff team and he needs extra pieces to make a deep run. The Ottawa Senators have sold out their future to fail to make the playoffs and we might be trading away a top 6 forward in the offseason. LMAO. Emphasis on away. We are not gaining another piece for right here right now, we might be losing one.

You know what this looks like? This is like Brian Burke trading away all Toronto's 1st round picks for that Phil Kessel offersheet. He was fired a few years later. Meanwhile we're done with our 6th season of missed playoffs with Dorion at the helm and people want to pretend this is some masterclass in being a general manager. Unbelievable.

Maybe if Norris doesn’t miss the season they manage to get 3 more wins and make playoffs.

 

[redbrick98]

Again more obfuscation.

The problem isn't that Dorion gambled and might lose. The problem is he has traded away the majority of our "future" assets, the majority of our "build" assets.

And what was the result of Dorion betting everything on right here and right now? We missed the playoffs.

A GM normally doesn't sell out his future until he believes he has a playoff team and he needs extra pieces to make a deep run. The Ottawa Senators have sold out their future to fail to make the playoffs and we might be trading away a top 6 forward in the offseason. LMAO. Emphasis on away. We are not gaining another piece for right here right now, we might be losing one.

You know what this looks like? This is like Brian Burke trading away all Toronto's 1st round picks for that Phil Kessel offersheet. He was fired a few years later. Meanwhile we're done with our 6th season of missed playoffs with Dorion at the helm and people want to pretend this is some masterclass in being a general manager. Unbelievable.

Honestly can't believe how so many people give Dorion a free pass


Pierre Dorion will be the 1st GM in the Salary Cap Era to go 6 straight seasons - miss the playoffs - and still not be fired.

Missed Playoffs
Missed Playoffs
Missed Playoffs
Missed Playoffs
Missed Playoffs
Missed Playoffs ...... and he should still have a job? Gimme a break.

Time to give someone else a chance. Plenty of deserving hockey people out there.

 

[Beech]

No coach plays DBC on fourth line.

fine, why pay a #7.. and 2 other picks. Their backs were to the wall. All the while, pay his 9 M. Possibly for 2 years.

Chicago GM Davidson must have been peeing in his pants...

At least Montreal gave a 13th overall... 7th!!!!!!

Suzuki for an often injured, now traded Max. P. to Vegas
Branie and Sok. for Stone... their captain and heart and soul.

OHHH f*** Pierre. They wanted a fourth, we didn't have a fourth, so we gave them a third!!!!

 

[Hockeysawks]

why trade away so many assets when your plan isn't to make the playoffs and you have no guarantee of an extension? Espeaciily when the GM moved the goals for the rebuild (which we all remember he's followed iron clad fist) he changed the goals of the team from 22/23 being a playoff team to 22/23 being a non-playoff team - so why trade for Debrincart when you're not in your window?

I don't think I have to defend myself - Pierre Dorion makes massive mistakes every summer. Stone trade, Zabinejed trade, Murray trade, Matt Duchene trade both ways, this is just off the top of my head.

Debrincat has done nothing for this team and he will be traded for a lose. That's Dorion's track record. He's the one without a playoff team and has to trade a 40 goal scorer

Fill the seats and make a buzz to increase the value of the team.
It was a marketing plan not a hockey move

 

[swiftwin]

Again more obfuscation.

The problem isn't that Dorion gambled and might lose. The problem is he has traded away the majority of our "future" assets, the majority of our "build" assets.

And what was the result of Dorion betting everything on right here and right now? We missed the playoffs.

A GM normally doesn't sell out his future until he believes he has a playoff team and he needs extra pieces to make a deep run. The Ottawa Senators have sold out their future to fail to make the playoffs and we might be trading away a top 6 forward in the offseason. LMAO. Emphasis on away. We are not gaining another piece for right here right now, we might be losing one.

You know what this looks like? This is like Brian Burke trading away all Toronto's 1st round picks for that Phil Kessel offersheet. He was fired a few years later. Meanwhile we're done with our 6th season of missed playoffs with Dorion at the helm and people want to pretend this is some masterclass in being a general manager. Unbelievable.

He hasn't traded the majority of our future assets. The majority of our future assets are playing for the team right now.

Your suggestion that the team will never improve unless we add more players to the roster is really really bizarre. The team is VERY young and has tons of room to grow. Not only is the team very young, but the two players with the most potential (Stutzle and Sanderson) were the two youngest players on the team.

Honestly can't believe how so many people give Dorion a free pass


Pierre Dorion will be the 1st GM in the Salary Cap Era to go 6 straight seasons - miss the playoffs - and still not be fired.

Missed Playoffs
Missed Playoffs
Missed Playoffs
Missed Playoffs
Missed Playoffs
Missed Playoffs ...... and he should still have a job? Gimme a break.

Time to give someone else a chance. Plenty of deserving hockey people out there.

Hol up, was he supposed to make the playoffs during a rebuild?

 

[Ouroboros]

Again more obfuscation.

The problem isn't that Dorion gambled and might lose. The problem is he has traded away the majority of our "future" assets, the majority of our "build" assets.

And what was the result of Dorion betting everything on right here and right now? We missed the playoffs.

A GM normally doesn't sell out his future until he believes he has a playoff team and he needs extra pieces to make a deep run. The Ottawa Senators have sold out their future to fail to make the playoffs and we might be trading away a top 6 forward in the offseason. LMAO. Emphasis on away. We are not gaining another piece for right here right now, we might be losing one.

You know what this looks like? This is like Brian Burke trading away all Toronto's 1st round picks for that Phil Kessel offersheet. He was fired a few years later. Meanwhile we're done with our 6th season of missed playoffs with Dorion at the helm and people want to pretend this is some masterclass in being a general manager. Unbelievable.

It's easy for people on the internet - with no skin in the game - to say that the Senators should have kept building, but that's not what the key players on the team wanted.

What do you do when Tkachuk and Chabot show up to their 2022 exit interviews with a list of demands? Those guys don't want to hear about how Marco Kasper or Kevin Korchinski might be pretty good 3 or 4 years down the road. They want to win now, so Dorion tried his best to facilitate that.

There was an attempt to jumpstart the process, and it made some sense to do so. The top guys wanted it, and we had nothing in the system worth waiting around for even prior to trading the 2022 and 2023 1sts. It looks like it won't work out, but that's how she goes some times.

 

[redbrick98]

He hasn't traded the majority of our future assets. The majority of our future assets are playing for the team right now.

Your suggestion that the team will never improve unless we add more players to the roster is really really bizarre. The team is VERY young and has tons of room to grow. Not only is the team very young, but the two players with the most potential (Stutzle and Sanderson) were the two youngest players on the team.


Hol up, was he supposed to make the playoffs during a rebuild?

Rebuild was over 2 seasons ago ... Pierre Dorion said so himself.

GMs don't have unlimited time to be in charge, produce or get out.

 

[bicboi64]

There were so many better uses of the assets we gave for Cat than acquiring him without an extension. Given how many star forwards are signed to extensions within days of being acquired, its a safe bet that Dorion simply gambled. Dorion gambling when we are still not an established playoff team is simply awful.

If you know you can't sign Cat:
-Keep the pick and draft a Korchinski, Kaspar, Savoie, Nazar, etc... any of whom would be our best prospect and give us some cheap ELC talent in a year or two
-Trade the pick for a defender. See if you can get Chychrun for a package surrounding the 7th overall, at that point trading a top 10 pick for someone like Chychrun would've made sense since we badly needed a defender.
-Keep the pick, draft whomever and take advantage of teams moving forwards for cheap (Bjorkstrand, Haula, Pacioretty, Monahan, etc...).
-Draft whomever, and see if one of our prospects can make the jump. If they can't, at least we have capspace to make a move in the season and a bluechip prospect drafted.

 

[swiftwin]

Rebuild was over 2 seasons ago ... Pierre Dorion said so himself.

GMs don't have unlimited time to be in charge, produce or get out.

Whatever you say...

 

[redbrick98]

Whatever you say...

Just give him 1000 more years

 

[swiftwin]

Just give him 1000 more years

You're about 3 orders of magnitude off there, bud.

Maybe give him one year based on how much the team improved last year despite so many key injuries?

 

[bicboi64]

It's easy for people on the internet - with no skin in the game - to say that the Senators should have kept building, but that's not what the key players on the team wanted.

What do you do when Tkachuk and Chabot show up to their 2022 exit interviews with a list of demands? Those guys don't want to hear about how Marco Kasper or Kevin Korchinski might be pretty good 3 or 4 years down the road. They want to win now, so Dorion tried his best to facilitate that.

There was an attempt to jumpstart the process, and it made some sense to do so. The top guys wanted it, and we had nothing in the system worth waiting around for even prior to trading the 2022 and 2023 1sts. It looks like it won't work out, but that's how she goes some times.

Dorion is this teams leader, if Brady and Chabot walk in tomorrow and demand anything, Dorion better listen, but he should also be the voice of reason if any player wants a rushed move.

Tell the players you will do your best, but its not like Dorion has to make a blockbuster move because Brady and Chabot have a gun to his head. You trade top 10 picks for cost controlled guys that have term or someone you know you can extend, not gamble on. We literally couldn't afford to gamble and Dorion did.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Tons of hind sight views now on Cat, when most really liked it at the time.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

call his agent long distance on the free company phone

Do you honestly believe that a GM can call a player or their agent, of another team, that they’re interested in trading for, and ask them anything?

was he available or was he dumped on a sucker.

Chicago traded him and Kirby Doch to Montreal. A 22 and a 24 year old.. Makes no sense.. at 22 and 24, both had 6-7 years and could be kept around for the rebuild. Most rebuilds are 3-4 years. Chicago started in 2018...Doch came in 2019.

These were dumps. Chicago knew they were crap.

WE AND Montreal DID THEM ONE HUGE FAVOUR. TOOK THEIR SALARIES, THEIR POOR PLAY, GAVE Chicago BACK high picks.... sorry about the caps . big fingers

don’t forget, that Ottawa dumped a big salary on Chicago right around the same time.