Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Knave]

Again, post without context.

There is a difference between a team toiling in mediocrity for 6 years, or a try and fail rebuild, vs a team that bottomed out, did a calculated sell off and ground up rebuild, and has now risen to just finishing outside the playoffs from the absolute bottom of the NHL in just a few seasons. Making the playoffs next season would signal an absolute successful rebuild.

I don’t know about you, but those two situations tell different tales about the team composition and the management.

I don’t much care what happens in the end to be honest, as I have zero control over it, but I do feel compelled to argue against the endless inaccuracies that get bandied around in here.

The inaccuracy here is you think what we are experiencing is something normal. One GM for 6+ years of missed playoffs.

It's not the norm. It was not normal for the New Jersey Devils, it was not normal for the Buffalo Sabres, it was not normal for the Edmonton Oilers, it was not normal for the Toronto Maple Leafs.

In the modern post-lockout NHL it is only the Ottawa Senators. Only the Ottawa Senators who stuck with one GM.

 

[Micklebot]

Yesterday the first thing he said is he’s disappointed they didn’t make playoffs - need someone to get the message to Giroux that was never the goal and he has expectations way beyond reality. Giroux need to know being disappointed is stupid because the TSN panel predicted Sens wouldn’t make the playoffs so Giroux should STFU

There's a difference between expectations going in and being disappointed when you felt like you were in a position to surpass expectations but ultimately failed to do so.

We went into the season with a goal in mind

We got close enough that late in the season it looked like if we got some bounces and played well, playoffs were a possibility

Injuries and some bad games resulted in us ultimately coming 5-7 pts short of a playoff berth

So, ya, right now he's disappointed we couldn't pull it off. That doesn't mean he's unhappy with the season as a whole, or that we didn't meet expectations.

You can bet every player on the team was disappointed we couldn't beat the pens in game 7 OT against the Pens, but the sure as hell were disappointed with the season, nor did theyfail to meet expectations.

 

[NyQuil]

Yesterday the first thing he said is he’s disappointed they didn’t make playoffs - need someone to get the message to Giroux that was never the goal and he has expectations way beyond reality. Giroux need to know being disappointed is stupid because the TSN panel predicted Sens wouldn’t make the playoffs so Giroux should STFU

I don't want a Claude Giroux who isn't disappointed we missed the playoffs.

EDIT: Ok, I realize you were being very sarcastic, so apologies for the meme.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I don't want a Claude Giroux who isn't disappointed we missed the playoffs.

And they should be disappointed. No need to beat anyone up over it or that the sky is falling, but regardless of expectations they had their chance and couldn't do it. On to the next one.

 

[swiftwin]

The inaccuracy here is you think what we are experiencing is something normal. One GM for 6+ years of missed playoffs.

It's not the norm. It was not normal for the New Jersey Devils, it was not normal for the Buffalo Sabres, it was not normal for the Edmonton Oilers, it was not normal for the Toronto Maple Leafs.

In the modern post-lockout NHL it is only the Ottawa Senators. Only the Ottawa Senators who stuck with one GM.

The major difference is that many teams unwillingly fall into a rebuild. That means the old GM likely started amassing young assets/picks towards the end of their tenure, before a rebuild is "declared" and a new GM is brought in to do the rebuild.

Thanks in large part to Melnyk, we skipped that gradual decline phase, and went straight from an ECF finish to a scorched earth rebuild. This is the part that was abnormal. The vast majority of owners would not tolerate the alienation of the fan base and reduced ticket sales that we went through as a result of this.

The fact is that a rebuild plan was clearly engaged in 2018, with our sights set on the 2020 draft, and we are here in 2023, with the end of the rebuild in clear sight. Saying "we missed x amount of years, we must fire the GM" is incredibly narrow minded. Everyone knows the buzz this team has right now, and the great job Dorion has done.

 

[swiftwin]

The contrarians are going to keep contrarianing

I thought I was the contrarian?

 

[Byron Bitz]

As far as current GM’s without a contract for next season the two biggest names available are Brad Treliving and Kyle Dubas ( who grew up a Sens fan). I think Treliving is probably the better option of the two.

 

[swiftwin]

As far as current GM’s without a contract for next season the two biggest names available are Brad Treliving and Kyle Dubas ( who grew up a Sens fan). I think Treliving is probably the better option of the two.

Dorion is the best option of the three.

 

[Senator Stanley]

As far as current GM’s without a contract for next season the two biggest names available are Brad Treliving and Kyle Dubas ( who grew up a Sens fan). I think Treliving is probably the better option of the two.

Really? Calgary is a total mess and Toronto is about to finish 4th in the league.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

As far as current GM’s without a contract for next season the two biggest names available are Brad Treliving and Kyle Dubas ( who grew up a Sens fan). I think Treliving is probably the better option of the two.

I would like Treliving. He's put together good squads in Calgary under tough circumstances and they've underachieved badly this year.

 

[Very Stable Genius]

I would like Treliving. He's put together good squads in Calgary under tough circumstances and they've underachieved badly this year.

Huberdeau and Kadri contracts were a complete disaster that could have been seen from a mile away.

 

[GCK]

Huberdeau and Kadri contracts were a complete disaster that could have been seen from a mile away.

And he hired Darryl the Dinosaur

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Huberdeau and Kadri contracts were a complete disaster that could have been seen from a mile away.

They'll be fine and were reasonable bets to make in their position imo. He was put in a tough spot with both Gudreau and Tkachuk leaving. Rebuilds are not fun and that was basically their alternative. Everything else on their team is expiring in the next couple years, so it's only those two and Weegar long term.

If they rebuild, the contracts can be weathered since they won't really matter and having quality vets around is actually a really good thing throughout a rebuild, as we know from not having them during ours and how detrimental it was. We took 5 years of basement years before looking remotely competitive, which would eat up almost all of their remaining years, expecially considering they haven't even gone down the shedding road yet.

If they don't rebuild, they'll keep playing there and will contribute for at least half of their deals and be on the back half and inconsequential to the budget when they do rebuild. They have a ton of desirable assets to sell off like we did either way.


I also want to see both under a new coach before writing either off. We all knew the backend of those deals would be tough, but no reason they can't be ppg players for half or more of them and as much as I love Daryl Sutter and his interviews, I think he needs to go.

 

[Byron Bitz]

Really? Calgary is a total mess and Toronto is about to finish 4th in the league.

Right but why does Dubas deserve all the credit for that? Was it him who acquired Matthews, Marner, Rielly and Nylander?

 

[BankStreetParade]

It's like Elgin Baylor and the Clippers all over again. Thankfully we should have new ownership soon and they will want to put their stamp on the team. That's an excuse I can get. The Melnyk daughters are letting things play out and don't want to make waves, the new owners can make the changes when they successfully win with their bid and follow through.

Nothing against Dorion, I don't wish him ill or anything but he has had 6 full seasons since last making the playoffs. This is the first year of significant movement. And people are making excuses for why we once again missed the playoffs despite being near the cap this time.

In terms of NHL history - the drought, the length, the remaining the GM of the same team... it's nearly unprecedented. It's seriously Doug MacLean and Mike Milbury territory. You can argue Dorion had some extenuating circumstances or he's better than those two but the numbers are the numbers.

What an arcane statistic to present. The Buffalo Sabres haven't made the playoffs in 10 years, what does it matter if they had 1 GM during that time or 3? When Sakic took over Colorado, they had missed the playoffs 3 years in a row and missed 3 out of his first 4 years as GM. He already had Duchene [3OA, 2009], O'Reilly [33OA, 2009], Landeskog [2OA, 2011] and MacKinnon [1OA, 2013] when he took over and then some of his seasons were bad enough that they landed him Makar [4OA, 2017] and Rantanen [10OA, 2015].

So he missed the playoffs 3 out of his first 4 season on a team brimming with young talent. It'd be like the next GM of the Sens missing the playoffs 3 out of their first 4 seasons with the roster we have now. You'd probably call it outrageous.

And these are just a couple of examples from hockey. You said this was virtually "unprecedented in modern sports history", which is an outrageously stupid claim to make.

And none of this makes mention of who Dorion's boss was during the majority of his tenure as GM. A fickle, cheap, micromanaging, narcissistic, sociopathic buffoon who was obsessed with cost-cutting and penny-pinching for every year of Dorion's time as GM, with the exception of this year.

 

[JD1]

The inaccuracy here is you think what we are experiencing is something normal. One GM for 6+ years of missed playoffs.

It's not the norm. It was not normal for the New Jersey Devils, it was not normal for the Buffalo Sabres, it was not normal for the Edmonton Oilers, it was not normal for the Toronto Maple Leafs.

In the modern post-lockout NHL it is only the Ottawa Senators. Only the Ottawa Senators who stuck with one GM.

I would argue that all 4 of the teams you mentioned went thru multiple try/fail cycles. What happened here was not similar. We had the ECF year, the following year we made a big move, it backfired and we've since had a full tear down and rebuild. We've not built it up only to fail.

Imo next year it's playoffs or clean house.

I think it's kind of funny that you've got the internet experts all up in arms because we didn't make the playoffs, but you've got the hockey experts predicting a close but no cigar finish, the GM establishing a close but no cigar finish and our biggest Ufa addition (perhaps ever) saying playoffs might be out of reach because it takes time to gel and build culture.

As far as current GM’s without a contract for next season the two biggest names available are Brad Treliving and Kyle Dubas ( who grew up a Sens fan). I think Treliving is probably the better option of the two.

Isn't traveling the architect of the hot mess in Calgary? A team blessed with a great season health wise, missed the playoffs, terrible contracts with aging players....you want that guy?

 

[bicboi64]

Isn't traveling the architect of the hot mess in Calgary? A team blessed with a great season health wise, missed the playoffs, terrible contracts with aging players....you want that guy?

Apparently Murray Edwards isn't down for a full rebuild. I briefly checked out flames forums and althought not as meddling as Melnyk, Edwards annoying and probably had a hand in having Trevling make moves to stay competitive as oppose to even doing a retool

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Apparently Murray Edwards isn't down for a full rebuild. I briefly checked out flames forums and althought not as meddling as Melnyk, Edwards annoying and probably had a hand in having Trevling make moves to stay competitive as oppose to even doing a retool

Well it was an attempt at a retool or am I misunderstanding the term? It seems like it's more that it just hasn't worked out, but that's what I thought a Retool basically was what they did. Statistically, they were plugging 2 guys in to try to equalize 2 lost, while gaining Weegar on D. Unfortunately for them, it looks like Tkachuk and Gudreau were much better players than the 2 they brought in to replace them, and Huberdeau had his worst season in the league.

I think the team itself is not the issue for the most part either. They lack enough at center to really contend, but they went from Markstrom giving them a .922 save% to .892. That's an insane .30 drop year on year, which would sink any team in the league. Guy looked absolutely awful this year. And for all the hype Vladar got early, he sucks this year too and his save % is only .895. Nobody is winning anything with that kind of shit goaltending.

Then there's the Sutter issue. I was always a big fan, but maybe his time has passed. Do they really want to enter in to at least half a decade of miserable, unentertaining hockey after two Sutter seasons? And while trying to secure a new arena they're going to turn the team into something nobody wants to watch?

I don't think Edwards is wrong here, yet at least. I'd try again one more year if I were them and they can start tearing down at the deadline if they suck. Then they can ride out those 3 contracts through the rebuild or take it in the groin to move one or two. They have a shit ton of assets, arguably even more than we did, that still carry good value if they go down that road.

 

[bicboi64]

Well it was an attempt at a retool or am I misunderstanding the term? It seems like it's more that it just hasn't worked out, but that's what I thought a Retool basically was what they did. Statistically, they were plugging 2 guys in to try to equalize 2 lost, while gaining Weegar on D. Unfortunately for them, it looks like Tkachuk and Gudreau were much better players than the 2 they brought in to replace them, and Huberdeau had his worst season in the league.

I think the team itself is not the issue for the most part either. They lack enough at center to really contend, but they went from Markstrom giving them a .922 save% to .892. That's an insane .30 drop year on year, which would sink any team in the league. Guy looked absolutely awful this year. And for all the hype Vladar got early, he sucks this year too and his save % is only .895. Nobody is winning anything with that kind of shit goaltending.

Then there's the Sutter issue. I was always a big fan, but maybe his time has passed. Do they really want to enter in to at least half a decade of miserable, unentertaining hockey after two Sutter seasons? And while trying to secure a new arena they're going to turn the team into something nobody wants to watch?

I don't think Edwards is wrong here, yet at least. I'd try again one more year if I were them and they can start tearing down at the deadline if they suck. Then they can ride out those 3 contracts through the rebuild or take it in the groin to move one or two.

Honestly not sure, its hard for me to get a gist of what their management was trying. I do feel it was a bit premature to give Huberdeau $10 million, at least given his age. Treliving hasn't had too many bad contracts up until then (Neal was probably the only one) and $10 million to anyone who willl play most of those years on the wrong side of 30 seems horrid.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Honestly not sure, its hard for me to get a gist of what their management was trying. I do feel it was a bit premature to give Huberdeau $10 million, at least given his age. Treliving hasn't had too many bad contracts up until then (Neal was probably the only one) and $10 million to anyone who willl play most of those years on the wrong side of 30 seems horrid.

It is certainly a tough spot he was in.

Just like Weegar, Huberdeau wasn't staying without that contract, so you have to go back and reverse the trade itself more so than the contract. Then what direction do they go with Tkachuk? The main reason they got so much perceived value was because of the expiring contracts on those players and Tkachuk's willingness to sign there, but if they'd gone for youth or to another team, it would likely have had a minimal impact if any on this season. Tkachuk forced their hand to Florida and it put them in a tough spot. They were essentially faced with starting the rebuild or trying something bold.

I can't help but wonder how much the attempt at a badly needed, team will move without it, new arena deal plays in to it. Can they put a product on the ice the next half a decade or more that could lead to attendance issues? I don't live in Ottawa, but I would have much rather watched from the couch, if at all, than to go and watch the rosters they were sending out there and getting spanked.

And again, I think the goaltending is not getting nearly enough attention here. It is by far the biggest reason that team is not in the playoffs, not anyone they lost or brought in. Kind of telling that their big prospect tryout to end the season is a goaltender.

 

[Hale The Villain]

I don't see how this is possible. Not if you're actually evaluating his body of work. There is no way he should be allowed to pick a new coach. This teams going to finish between 5 and 8 points out of a playoff spot. It was definitely attainable. Doesn't make the Talbot deal and they're likely in. Keeps Connor Brown and they're likely in. Gives Joseph's contract to Paul and they're likely in. All very simple deals that should have been obvious not to make and they're in. He isn't good at his job. 6 straight years bottom 10 finishes no firsts and no prospect depth. He's bad. Time for someone new. If Alfie is involved in ownership which I hope then he's a gonner. Also think about that for a second. Do you want a guy around that Alfie hates? Obviously not a high character individual. He's quite clearly not intelligent just need to listen to him attempt to articulate himself.

Any defense of Dorion's work has to rely on the flimsiest of arguments that fall apart upon the smallest inspection.

What has he done recently to make up for his awful moves during the rebuild and keep his job?

Dude took what we should have ponied up to re-sign Brown and Paul and gave it and an extra 3M or so to DeBrincat and Joseph, losing us the 7th overall pick in the process. Awful set of moves that were completely unnecessary.

Also dealt away Gustavsson for Talbot, which is one of the worst trades that has been made all year and may be the biggest reason the team didn't make the playoffs this year.

The Chychrun trade was good but you have to have the memory of a goldfish to think it makes up for yet another off-season of short-sighted moves.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Any defense of Dorion's work has to rely on the flimsiest of arguments that fall apart upon the smallest inspection.

What has he done recently to make up for his awful moves during the rebuild and keep his job?

Dude took what we should have ponied up to re-sign Brown and Paul and gave it and an extra 3M or so to DeBrincat and Joseph, losing us the 7th overall pick in the process. Awful set of moves that were completely unnecessary.

Also dealt away Gustavsson for Talbot, which is one of the worst trades that has been made all year and may be the biggest reason the team didn't make the playoffs this year.

The Chychrun trade was good but you have to have the memory of a goldfish to think it makes up for yet another off-season of short-sighted moves.

I think his biggest issue is goaltending in general. It started with bad contracts to Condon and Anderson and his bets in that area have been not worked out since he was hired other than arguably Forsberg. It's still a question mark.

 

[NyQuil]

I think his biggest issue is goaltending in general. It started with bad contracts to Condon and Anderson and his bets in that area have been not worked out since he was hired other than arguably Forsberg. It's still a question mark.

Not a lot of GMs have a great record of handing out contracts to goalies.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Not a lot of GMs have a great record of handing out contracts to goalies.

Ya I can believe that. So many up and down these days that it's a hard position to fill and get consistency. I just hope he can figure it out going forward because I think for all the hand wringing about Dorion done here, I think that's the most concerning.

 

[Hale The Villain]

I think his biggest issue is goaltending in general. It started with bad contracts to Condon and Anderson and his bets in that area have been not worked out since he was hired other than arguably Forsberg. It's still a question mark.

Forsberg was a great pickup. Condon saved our season in 2016/17 and then flopped. Nilsson was surprisingly good too before getting injured.

Obviously the early extension to Anderson was incredibly shortsighted and I said so at the time. Can't say the same about the Gustavsson/Talbot swap, but that's been a disaster. Murray also proved to be a terrible acquisition.

It says something when the Sens' pro scouting staffs record on goaltending is mixed at best, but still better than their history of acquisitions at forward and on D