Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Tuna99]

This just doesn’t wash. Why stop there, why aren’t you furious that the goal wasn’t to win the cup?

The reality is that most people understand that this young team was a few seasons away from being a playoff team due to the required natural development that is needed by its core players.


To set a goal that is unrealistic to meet would be setting the team up for failure before the season even started, and would serve no purpose for the team itself. Bitter fans would love the ammunition, but list fans would wonder why we would have set such unrealistic goals to begin with.

No, you stick with setting realistic and achievable goals, especially for young people, so that you can build on them.

Paul wasn’t a bad trade, the love affair in here by 5 people is over the top. He’s a bottom six guy, usually 4th line, who doesn’t put up many points and would have been a mistake to lock up for 7 years. Brown left of his own accord, and Gus, well, that love was debatable, and for the most part a hindsight argument. Lost in that minor trip of moves are the trio of huge moves we made this season, but hey, why focus on the impact of those moves.


It’s called a rebuild. They don’t happen over night, and not a single young team that we’re in the mix with (NJ, Buff, Det) have done it faster.

The simple reality is that it hasn’t been six years, there was a sell off, that’s not really part of the rebuild. After that you have to grow at the speed of the young stars you draft. Guys like Stammer made that clear he other day, talking about how it took him 5 years to make the playoffs after being drafted.

You simply can’t realistically rebuild a team from the ground up any faster.

Media experts - what does mean. Many had Boston taking a step back not being the best team of all time. Who had EK winning the Norris and getting 100 points or Giroux being as good as he is.

I set my own goals for this team - they should of been a playoff team or at least had the guts to admit that was their goal.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Media experts - what does mean. Many had Boston taking a step back not being the best team of all time. Who had EK winning the Norris and getting 100 points or Giroux being as good as he is.

I set my own goals for this team - they should of been a playoff team or at least had the guts to admit that was their goal.

Well that’s kind of what I mean. You set your own expectations and they weren’t met.

The questions is more about whether your expectations were reasonable or not.

EK hasn’t won the Norris, but you’re right, people didn’t expect Boston to set a wins record, or for G to get 1000 this year, or the Sens to make the playoffs.

The difference is that these other teams and players exceeded expectations, where as we seemed to have simply met ours, but with significant injuries.

 

[Sens Vader]

I’m really hoping the new ownership group bolsters the management and coaching staffs

Melnyk was never willing to commit funds to these areas.

Hoping the new leadership can take this to the next level

 

[GCK]

I’m really hoping the new ownership group bolsters the management and coaching staffs

Melnyk was never willing to commit funds to these areas.

Hoping the new leadership can take this to the next level

You can spend a lot and still hire the wrong people.

I just hope Darryl the Dinosaur never gets near this group.

 

[Knave]

Some fans just like to gripe at all times, and that will never change no matter what happens.

We are in Mike Milbury and Doug Maclean territory here.

You're implying it's an unreasonable thing to want a change with one of the longest GM playoff droughts in the history of modern sports?

It's weird how many people seem perfectly fine with failure. And make no mistake - this is a failure. This is practically unheard of in professional sports.

 

[Sens Vader]

You can spend a lot and still hire the wrong people.

I just hope Darryl the Dinosaur never gets near this group.

I mean you have a much greater chance of hiring the wrong people when you're cheap. But I meant it more in the sense of spending on the whole staff, not one individual.

is Sutter getting fired?

 

[GCK]

I mean you have a much greater chance of hiring the wrong people when you're cheap. But I meant it more in the sense of spending on the whole staff, not one individual.

is Sutter getting fired?

Word out of Calgary is Sutter is gone. New guys Huberdeau and Kadri hate him. Treliving likely toast as well.

I wonder if Bowness gets a bump. As far as coaches who may become available my top 3 are Sullivan, Cooper and Keefe, if any of them hit the market open the wallet.

 

[bicboi64]

This just doesn’t wash. Why stop there, why aren’t you furious that the goal wasn’t to win the cup?

The reality is that most people understand that this young team was a few seasons away from being a playoff team due to the required natural development that is needed by its core players.


To set a goal that is unrealistic to meet would be setting the team up for failure before the season even started, and would serve no purpose for the team itself. Bitter fans would love the ammunition, but list fans would wonder why we would have set such unrealistic goals to begin with.

No, you stick with setting realistic and achievable goals, especially for young people, so that you can build on them.

Paul wasn’t a bad trade, the love affair in here by 5 people is over the top. He’s a bottom six guy, usually 4th line, who doesn’t put up many points and would have been a mistake to lock up for 7 years. Brown left of his own accord, and Gus, well, that love was debatable, and for the most part a hindsight argument. Lost in that minor trip of moves are the trio of huge moves we made this season, but hey, why focus on the impact of those moves.

My guy, its cool to be a fan of the team's current direction and season, but what do you gain from making statements like this which factually aren't true?

Paul was literally Tampa's 2C for most of the season, and is a good third line player that can play throughout the top 9 at any position, on almost every team in the league. He's currently doing that for the best managed team over the last few years and a contender. Paul being a 4th liner is utter nonsense.

And yes, the goal should be the cup. Obviously you take into consideration where a team is in their development, but in the offseason, the team made several win now moves in trading high picks and prospects for players who aren't signed long term (Cat, Talbot, etc...), all while spending near the cap. Playoffs are an absolutely realistic expectation for a team that started giving up futures for win now players. Cat is not a long term move until an extension is signed. Talbot was brought in to 'stabilize' our goaltending. You don't acquire a 40g winger unless you're trying to make the dance.

 

[bicboi64]

We are in Mike Milbury and Doug Maclean territory here.

You're implying it's an unreasonable thing to want a change with one of the longest GM playoff droughts in the history of modern sports?

It's weird how many people seem perfectly fine with failure. And make no mistake - this is a failure. This is practically unheard of in professional sports.

I don't think Dorion is as bad as Milbury or Maclean. He knows how to give long term contracts, especially to youth, but his vision is certainly shite when it comes to evaluating established pro talent..

He literally spent more money this past off season, only for us to end up having less depth. The current plan is to hope that Chabot bounces back, Sanderson doesn't have a sophomore slump, and Chychrun can stay healthy enough to fill in whatever we might miss to injuries. We can literally end up in a Mark Stone situation with Cat, are hoping Joseph is better than he was this year, and don't have a plan for goaltending.

 

[Ice-Tray]

We are in Mike Milbury and Doug Maclean territory here.

You're implying it's an unreasonable thing to want a change with one of the longest GM playoff droughts in the history of modern sports?

It's weird how many people seem perfectly fine with failure. And make no mistake - this is a failure. This is practically unheard of in professional sports.

Come on, think about what you’re saying. The team has been rebuilding from scratch for the last several years. It has gotten better every year as the teams draft picks have developed.

Make no mistake, a rebuild that sees the team get better each year as the young players develop player after player into stars is not only NOT a failure, but something to be celebrated.

Complaining without context is the new thing online, I get it, but it’s ridiculous. No team would ever fire a GM in the middle of a rebuild that was going well. We haven’t really even had a notable hiccup, and with the death of the previous owner the pursestrings opened and we saw a flurry of long term deals and huge trades and signings for our squad.

It will be interesting to hear your explanation for how dumb and ‘fine with failure’ the next ownership group is when don’t fire the GM and coach when they arrive.

Things don’t have to go perfectly at all times to be an overall success, but this rebuild has been a success so far, make no mistake it’s only a few holdouts in here that don’t get it, or simply don’t want to get it because they have an overwhelming personal grudge against a stranger.

When the entire hockey world disagrees with your take, not just the bootlicking apologists in here, it’s time to take a hard look at your outlook on the team.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I think Dorion has enough ammo after this season to keep his job.

 

[Tuna99]

Well that’s kind of what I mean. You set your own expectations and they weren’t met.

The questions is more about whether your expectations were reasonable or not.

EK hasn’t won the Norris, but you’re right, people didn’t expect Boston to set a wins record, or for G to get 1000 this year, or the Sens to make the playoffs.

The difference is that these other teams and players exceeded expectations, where as we seemed to have simply met ours, but with significant injuries.

If you’re expectations after 5 years of not making the playoffs is to continue to not make the playoffs and be satisfied then you suck at your job

 

[Loach]

Come on, think about what you’re saying. The team has been rebuilding from scratch for the last several years. It has gotten better every year as the teams draft picks have developed.

Make no mistake, a rebuild that sees the team get better each year as the young players develop player after player into stars is not only NOT a failure, but something to be celebrated.

Complaining without context is the new thing online, I get it, but it’s ridiculous. No team would ever fire a GM in the middle of a rebuild that was going well. We haven’t really even had a notable hiccup, and with the death of the previous owner the pursestrings opened and we saw a flurry of long term deals and huge trades and signings for our squad.

It will be interesting to hear your explanation for how dumb and ‘fine with failure’ the next ownership group is when don’t fire the GM and coach when they arrive.

Things don’t have to go perfectly at all times to be an overall success, but this rebuild has been a success so far, make no mistake it’s only a few holdouts in here that don’t get it, or simply don’t want to get it because they have an overwhelming personal grudge against a stranger.

When the entire hockey world disagrees with your take, not just the bootlicking apologists in here, it’s time to take a hard look at your outlook on the team.

You have Stockholm syndrome.

 

[Tuna99]

Come on, think about what you’re saying. The team has been rebuilding from scratch for the last several years. It has gotten better every year as the teams draft picks have developed.

Make no mistake, a rebuild that sees the team get better each year as the young players develop player after player into stars is not only NOT a failure, but something to be celebrated.

Complaining without context is the new thing online, I get it, but it’s ridiculous. No team would ever fire a GM in the middle of a rebuild that was going well. We haven’t really even had a notable hiccup, and with the death of the previous owner the pursestrings opened and we saw a flurry of long term deals and huge trades and signings for our squad.

It will be interesting to hear your explanation for how dumb and ‘fine with failure’ the next ownership group is when don’t fire the GM and coach when they arrive.

Things don’t have to go perfectly at all times to be an overall success, but this rebuild has been a success so far, make no mistake it’s only a few holdouts in here that don’t get it, or simply don’t want to get it because they have an overwhelming personal grudge against a stranger.

When the entire hockey world disagrees with your take, not just the bootlicking apologists in here, it’s time to take a hard look at your outlook on the team.

This is hilarious, breaking down society and the internet to defend a coach who’s never made the playoffs and who’s team collapse on the face of any type of just win game - and then you come to the conclusion everyone agrees with you so I’m the problem and should be a sheep and get in line with you and “the entire hockey world”

EXCEPT When the Sens players yesterday were saying they are unsatisfied they didn’t make the playoffs and you obviously love the players - you should message them that they are wrong and their expectations and bullshit because the hockey world agrees with you

 

[GCK]

This is hilarious, breaking down society and the internet to defend a coach who’s never made the playoffs and who’s team collapse on the face of any type of just win game - and then you come to the conclusion everyone agrees with you so I’m the problem and should be a sheep and get in line with you and “the entire hockey world”

EXCEPT When the Sens players yesterday were saying they are unsatisfied they didn’t make the playoffs and you obviously love the players - you should message them that they are wrong and their expectations and bullshit because the hockey world agrees with you

Giroux didn’t expect playoffs. He stated when he signed this year was about building an identity and becoming a playoff team next year.

 

[bert]

I think Dorion has enough ammo after this season to keep his job.

I don't see how this is possible. Not if you're actually evaluating his body of work. There is no way he should be allowed to pick a new coach. This teams going to finish between 5 and 8 points out of a playoff spot. It was definitely attainable. Doesn't make the Talbot deal and they're likely in. Keeps Connor Brown and they're likely in. Gives Joseph's contract to Paul and they're likely in. All very simple deals that should have been obvious not to make and they're in. He isn't good at his job. 6 straight years bottom 10 finishes no firsts and no prospect depth. He's bad. Time for someone new. If Alfie is involved in ownership which I hope then he's a gonner. Also think about that for a second. Do you want a guy around that Alfie hates? Obviously not a high character individual. He's quite clearly not intelligent just need to listen to him attempt to articulate himself.

 

[Byron Bitz]

So you're upset that we had to rebuild? Or that it took longer than you wanted it to?

Basically I’m a year ahead of you on the timeline. Last year my expectations were to be in the playoff race til the end and this year was playoffs or bust.

 

[GCK]

I don't see how this is possible. Not if you're actually evaluating his body of work. There is no way he should be allowed to pick a new coach. This teams going to finish between 5 and 8 points out of a playoff spot. It was definitely attainable. Doesn't make the Talbot deal and they're likely in. Keeps Connor Brown and they're likely in. Gives Joseph's contract to Paul and they're likely in. All very simple deals that should have been obvious not to make and they're in. He isn't good at his job. 6 straight years bottom 10 finishes no firsts and no prospect depth. He's bad. Time for someone new. If Alfie is involved in ownership which I hope then he's a gonner. Also think about that for a second. Do you want a guy around that Alfie hates? Obviously not a high character individual. He's quite clearly not intelligent just need to listen to him attempt to articulate himself.

I remember JR telling me that everything coming out of Dorion is a lie and that’s why he didn’t bring him on air as much.

 

[Tuna99]

Giroux didn’t expect playoffs. He stated when he signed this year was about building an identity and becoming a playoff team next year.

Yesterday the first thing he said is he’s disappointed they didn’t make playoffs - need someone to get the message to Giroux that was never the goal and he has expectations way beyond reality. Giroux need to know being disappointed is stupid because the TSN panel predicted Sens wouldn’t make the playoffs so Giroux should STFU

 

[GCK]

Yesterday the first thing he said is he’s disappointed they didn’t make playoffs - need someone to get the message to Giroux that was énerver he goal and being dialointed is stupid because the TSN a panel predicted they wouldn’t make the playoffs so Giroux should STFU

Of course he’s disappointed but that’s different from his pre season expectations. I’m disappointed as well but I expected us to miss.

 

[BankStreetParade]

We are in Mike Milbury and Doug Maclean territory here.

You're implying it's an unreasonable thing to want a change with one of the longest GM playoff droughts in the history of modern sports?

It's weird how many people seem perfectly fine with failure. And make no mistake - this is a failure. This is practically unheard of in professional sports.

Say what????

 

[Do Make Say Think]

We are in Mike Milbury and Doug Maclean territory here.

You're implying it's an unreasonable thing to want a change with one of the longest GM playoff droughts in the history of modern sports?

It's weird how many people seem perfectly fine with failure. And make no mistake - this is a failure. This is practically unheard of in professional sports.

The contrarians are going to keep contrarianing

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I don't see how this is possible. Not if you're actually evaluating his body of work. There is no way he should be allowed to pick a new coach.

It’s a what have you done for me lately type business. I’m not saying he should. Or shouldn’t. It’s that I think he can point to the team. And say he built it.

I don't see how this is possible. Not if you're actually evaluating his body of work. There is no way he should be allowed to pick a new coach. This teams going to finish between 5 and 8 points out of a playoff spot. It was definitely attainable. Doesn't make the Talbot deal and they're likely in. Keeps Connor Brown and they're likely in. Gives Joseph's contract to Paul and they're likely in. All very simple deals that should have been obvious not to make and they're in. He isn't good at his job. 6 straight years bottom 10 finishes no firsts and no prospect depth. He's bad. Time for someone new. If Alfie is involved in ownership which I hope then he's a gonner. Also think about that for a second. Do you want a guy around that Alfie hates? Obviously not a high character individual. He's quite clearly not intelligent just need to listen to him attempt to articulate himself.

I don’t not want or want him around.

Also don’t care about Alfie. Who knows if Alfie will even be good at this

Looks like this trade was just very bad pro scouting again. Gus is doing much better in Minnesota than Talbot did there. He’s actually bailing them out when they need it. Talbot did not.

 

[Knave]

Say what????

It's like Elgin Baylor and the Clippers all over again. Thankfully we should have new ownership soon and they will want to put their stamp on the team. That's an excuse I can get. The Melnyk daughters are letting things play out and don't want to make waves, the new owners can make the changes when they successfully win with their bid and follow through.

Nothing against Dorion, I don't wish him ill or anything but he has had 6 full seasons since last making the playoffs. This is the first year of significant movement. And people are making excuses for why we once again missed the playoffs despite being near the cap this time.

In terms of NHL history - the drought, the length, the remaining the GM of the same team... it's nearly unprecedented. It's seriously Doug MacLean and Mike Milbury territory. You can argue Dorion had some extenuating circumstances or he's better than those two but the numbers are the numbers.

 

[Ice-Tray]

It's like Elgin Baylor and the Clippers all over again. Thankfully we should have new ownership soon and they will want to put their stamp on the team. That's an excuse I can get. The Melnyk daughters are letting things play out and don't want to make waves, the new owners can make the changes when they successfully win with their bid and follow through.

Nothing against Dorion, I don't wish him ill or anything but he has had 6 full seasons since last making the playoffs. This is the first year of significant movement. And people are making excuses for why we once again missed the playoffs despite being near the cap this time.

In terms of NHL history - the drought, the length, the remaining the GM of the same team... it's nearly unprecedented. It's seriously Doug MacLean and Mike Milbury territory. You can argue Dorion had some extenuating circumstances or he's better than those two but the numbers are the numbers.

Again, post without context.

There is a difference between a team toiling in mediocrity for 6 years, or a try and fail rebuild, vs a team that bottomed out, did a calculated sell off and ground up rebuild, and has now risen to just finishing outside the playoffs from the absolute bottom of the NHL in just a few seasons. Making the playoffs next season would signal an absolute successful rebuild.

I don’t know about you, but those two situations tell different tales about the team composition and the management.

I don’t much care what happens in the end to be honest, as I have zero control over it, but I do feel compelled to argue against the endless inaccuracies that get bandied around in here.