Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Micklebot]

We missed the playoffs. Though we were mathematically eliminated late in the season, the mirage of "meaningful games" ended long before then. We were not the only team dealing with injuries, that's a part of the game.

But we do have a solid core and a promising future. I'm all for giving Dorion another year to show that his unshackled-from-Melnyk power moves weren't a fluke, but like... can we stop making excuses? It's awkward and ignores the reality that we've dealt with these past few years.

I think that's underselling the impact injuries can and does have, yes everyone deals with injuries, but you can't equate the NYR, TB, NYI, Det, or Buf injuries with ours or Was, the difference is massive.

When you break it down to a game by game basis using lost WAR to judge the impact of missing players, we were more impacted than our opponents in all but 15 games,

 

[Burrowsaurus]

HF list for Dorion.
Trade chabot And debrincat to shore up the fourth line

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Gambrell 9 points in 59 games. That’s actually not bad.

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

I think that's underselling the impact injuries can and does have, yes everyone deals with injuries, but you can't equate the NYR, TB, NYI, Det, or Buf injuries with ours or Was, the difference is massive.

When you break it down to a game by game basis using lost WAR to judge the impact of missing players, we were more impacted than our opponents in all but 15 games,

Not doubting this, necessarily – losing a Josh Norris for a full season obviously stings more than losing a current-day Wayne Simmonds, for instance – but do you know where I can find such a breakdown? I can only find man-games lost in the season, which has us decidedly in the middle of the pack.

I'm not trying to undersell injuries, more to make a point – we are where we thought we would be. We didn't make the playoffs but we're on the rise and well-positioned to make it next year. With that context, I don't understand or agree with making excuses as to why we didn't make it this year. In the grand scheme of things, we weren't ~supposed to~. So why does it need to be explained away?

 

[Micklebot]

Not doubting this, necessarily – losing a Josh Norris for a full season obviously stings more than losing a current-day Wayne Simmonds, for instance – but do you know where I can find such a breakdown? I can only find man-games lost in the season, which has us decidedly in the middle of the pack.

I'm not trying to undersell injuries, more to make a point – we are where we thought we would be. We didn't make the playoffs but we're on the rise and well-positioned to make it next year. With that context, I don't understand or agree with making excuses as to why we didn't make it this year. In the grand scheme of things, we weren't ~supposed to~. So why does it need to be explained away?

Index

Explainer Team injury breakdowns 2023/24 : 2022/23 : 2021/22 : 2020/21 : 2019/20 : 2018/19 : 2017/18 : 2016/17 : 2015/...

nhlinjuryviz.blogspot.com

Wrt making excuses, I'm not sure I agree that's what is being done. If I'm to evaluate where we are moving forward, and how much we need to do to attain our overall goal, I think it's important to understand the variables that impacted this season and assess how likely they are to occur in future seasons.

There's no explaining awaywhy we missed, rather it's about clearly identying what lead to us being where we are so that we can decide what changes need to be made.

 

[swiftwin]

Pierre Dorion is a pretty good general manager.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Saying this team would have been better with Norris and Formenton in the lineup, Zub healthy and even league average goaltending from our tandem this year isn't an excuse, it's reality.

Let me put it this way: if I said we need to upgrade the 4th line next year, it wouldn't make sense to say "oh, that's just an excuse, the team needed to find a way to get more out of their 4th line". Most people would say "yeah, no shit, Sherlock".

 

[Ice-Tray]

Even having Forsberg and Talbot healthy for the season would have likely made the difference, just Forsberg even.

The margins was very close for us this year, just a handful of games, 5 or 6 goals either way.

Painful, but also surprisingly positive given how tough our division and conference is.

 

[JD1]

Gambrell 9 points in 59 games. That’s actually not bad.

Considering he had 1 thru the first 40, he's been producing to close out the season

 

[Cosmix]

No drama here over the debrincat news. Damn I’m dissapointed

What "news"?

 

[JD1]

I think that's underselling the impact injuries can and does have, yes everyone deals with injuries, but you can't equate the NYR, TB, NYI, Det, or Buf injuries with ours or Was, the difference is massive.

When you break it down to a game by game basis using lost WAR to judge the impact of missing players, we were more impacted than our opponents in all but 15 games,

Does that include Formenton's absence? I suspect not considering he's not injured

 

[Cosmix]

I'd put the odds of Dorion firing DJ at 0%.

If DJ is retained and does not get playoff bound results in the first 20 or so games next season (24 points over 20 games), Dorion will have to dump him to save his own ass.

Pierre Dorion is a pretty good general manager.

Yup, his record is impeccable!

 

[LevelingSolo]

If DJ is retained and does not get playoff bound results in the first 20 or so games next season (24 points over 20 games), Dorion will have to dump him to save his own ass.

Will see, we all said that this year as well lol

I'm starting to think they are a package combo

 

[Cosmix]

Will see, we all said that this year as well lol

I'm starting to think they are a package combo

Dorion was an understudy to Murray and saw how coaches would get canned when the heat starts rising. We have a seen a carousel of coaches with this team and the GM survives when performance is bad.

Dorion and DJ could well be a package combo that gets canned together if and when: a) a new owner pulls into town, or b) the team falls out of playoff contention with another bad start next season. I don't think new owners will want to be associated with losers.

 

[Micklebot]

Does that include Formenton's absence? I suspect not considering he's not injured

Not an injury so no, not included. At least with Formenton we were able to go out and try and mitigate the loss by signing Motte, had he been injured a few game in we'd have been a little tougher a situation, but either sucks.

 

[JD1]

Not an injury so no, not included. At least with Formenton we were able to go out and try and mitigate the loss by signing Motte, had he been injured a few game in we'd have been a little tougher a situation, but either sucks.

Ya, Motte was more of a warm body that could play 12-15 a night without hurting you. That's different than being a contributor which Formenton was.

 

[Byron Bitz]

Looks like the pick going to Arizona is gonna be 12th overall. I like Chychrun and think it’s a solid trade value wise but I also think it when you trade back to back 1sts 7th overall and 12th overall it means you are very much in win now mode which makes missing the playoffs a big time failure. Can’t imagine new ownership will keep Dorion.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Looks like the pick going to Arizona is gonna be 12th overall. I like Chychrun and think it’s a solid trade value wise but I also think it when you trade back to back 1sts 7th overall and 12th overall it means you are very much in win now mode which makes missing the playoffs a big time failure. Can’t imagine new ownership will keep Dorion.

Or we had could get second overall if we finish 12th

 

[Ice-Tray]

Looks like the pick going to Arizona is gonna be 12th overall. I like Chychrun and think it’s a solid trade value wise but I also think it when you trade back to back 1sts 7th overall and 12th overall it means you are very much in win now mode which makes missing the playoffs a big time failure. Can’t imagine new ownership will keep Dorion.

We are not in ‘win now mode’ we traded for young players that are in our core age group. People seem to want to attach their own meaning to the trades, but he team has already told us what they expected, it’s not a mystery, and it’s not really open to interpretation.

Folks may not like it, but anything different is a personal spin.

We absolutely want to take a step forward and stop waiting for draft picks, so we traded for some young stars, and we have taken a step forward.

Playoffs was never a realistic expectation this season even without injuries to key players and all the goalies, but next year we’ll be looking to take another step and be a real threat to get in.

I doubt new ownership makes any personnel changes right away, which is going to lead to many in here to start next season bitter and resentful even with new ownership.

 

[Tuna99]

We are not in ‘win now mode’ we traded for young players that are in our core age group. People seem to want to attach their own meaning to the trades, but he team has already told us what they expected, it’s not a mystery, and it’s not really open to interpretation.

Folks may not like it, but anything different is a personal spin.

We absolutely want to take a step forward and stop waiting for draft picks, so we traded for some young stars, and we have taken a step forward.

Playoffs was never a realistic expectation this season even without injuries to key players and all the goalies, but next year we’ll be looking to take another step and be a real threat to get in.

I doubt new ownership makes any personnel changes right away, which is going to lead to many in here to start next season bitter and resentful even with new ownership.

We’re not in a win now mode in the sense the GM doesn’t want to be held accountable for making the playoffs - his goal was to just not be in last place, so mission accomplished

That’s the competitive spirit of our NHL GM. No wonder the fan base doesn’t think we are in win now mode (even though we’ve trade Gus and all our top picks in the next 2 drafts)

 

[Ice-Tray]

We’re not in a win now mode in the sense the GM doesn’t want to be held accountable for making the playoffs - his goal was to just be in last place.

That’s the competitive spirit of an NHL GM. No wonder the fan base doesn’t think we are in win now mode (even though we’ve trade Gus and all our top picks in the next 2 drafts)

lol, Naw, that’s hoseshit. To me it reads more like you being bitter because the team met it’s goals for taking steps forward and that makes bashing management and coaching more difficult. Now it’s all about salivating for some grand vengeance from new ownership.

The truth is that before the season we were expected to finish exactly where we did by virtually every publication and pundit, along with our management, coaching staff, and players. The fact that we did it without Norris, and without stable goaltending is a testament to the guys finding ways to get it done. Even a rough November didn’t stop us from battling back as one of the leagues best teams for the following few months.

No, most fans enjoyed the season when it’s all said and done, and packed the house on the last home date to bid farewell for the season.

Some fans just like to gripe at all times, and that will never change no matter what happens.

 

[Tuna99]

lol, Naw, that’s hoseshit. To me it reads more like you being bitter because the team met it’s goals for taking steps forward and that makes bashing management and coaching more difficult. Now it’s all about salivating for some grand vengeance from new ownership.

The truth is that before the season we were expected to finish exactly where we did by virtually every publication and pundit, along with our management, coaching staff, and players. The fact that we did it without Norris, and without stable goaltending is a testament to the guys finding ways to get it done. Even a rough November didn’t stop us from battling back as one of the leagues best teams for the following few months.

No, most fans enjoyed the season when it’s all said and done, and packed the house on the last home date to bid farewell for the season.

Some fans just like to gripe at all times, and that will never change no matter what happens.

It’s great to see the talent but I still think with some better trades in the summer (or don’t trade a Paul and Brown) then this is a playoff team. When your goal is “don’t hold me accountable for my team” then it’s easy to meet your goals.

How the goal this year wasn’t to make the playoffs to me is the biggest cop-out - just weak. Don’t make a bad trades and keep Brown, Gus and Paul and you make the playoffs IMO

 

[Byron Bitz]

lol, Naw, that’s hoseshit. To me it reads more like you being bitter because the team met it’s goals for taking steps forward and that makes bashing management and coaching more difficult. Now it’s all about salivating for some grand vengeance from new ownership.

The truth is that before the season we were expected to finish exactly where we did by virtually every publication and pundit, along with our management, coaching staff, and players. The fact that we did it without Norris, and without stable goaltending is a testament to the guys finding ways to get it done. Even a rough November didn’t stop us from battling back as one of the leagues best teams for the following few months.

No, most fans enjoyed the season when it’s all said and done, and packed the house on the last home date to bid farewell for the season.

Some fans just like to gripe at all times, and that will never change no matter what happens.

It’s been six years man…six years

 

[Ice-Tray]

It’s great to see the talent but I still think with some better trades in the summer (or don’t trade a Paul and Brown) then this is a playoff team. When your goal is “don’t hold me accountable for my team” then it’s easy to meet your goals.

How the goal this year wasn’t to make the playoffs to me is the biggest cop-out - just weak. Don’t make a bad trades and keep Brown, Gus and Paul and you make the playoffs IMO

This just doesn’t wash. Why stop there, why aren’t you furious that the goal wasn’t to win the cup?

The reality is that most people understand that this young team was a few seasons away from being a playoff team due to the required natural development that is needed by its core players.


To set a goal that is unrealistic to meet would be setting the team up for failure before the season even started, and would serve no purpose for the team itself. Bitter fans would love the ammunition, but list fans would wonder why we would have set such unrealistic goals to begin with.

No, you stick with setting realistic and achievable goals, especially for young people, so that you can build on them.

Paul wasn’t a bad trade, the love affair in here by 5 people is over the top. He’s a bottom six guy, usually 4th line, who doesn’t put up many points and would have been a mistake to lock up for 7 years. Brown left of his own accord, and Gus, well, that love was debatable, and for the most part a hindsight argument. Lost in that minor trip of moves are the trio of huge moves we made this season, but hey, why focus on the impact of those moves.

It’s been six years man…six years

It’s called a rebuild. They don’t happen over night, and not a single young team that we’re in the mix with (NJ, Buff, Det) have done it faster.

The simple reality is that it hasn’t been six years, there was a sell off, that’s not really part of the rebuild. After that you have to grow at the speed of the young stars you draft. Guys like Stammer made that clear he other day, talking about how it took him 5 years to make the playoffs after being drafted.

You simply can’t realistically rebuild a team from the ground up any faster.

 

[BankStreetParade]

It’s been six years man…six years

So you're upset that we had to rebuild? Or that it took longer than you wanted it to?