Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[GCK]

I’d like to see Dorion ascend into a VP type position and the org acquire a new GM who could put his own crew in place.

Dorion should be fired not promoted

 

[JD1]

Ridiculous speculation based on one event. And that one event hardly gives the "cheese" a leg up on any other potential buyer.

For sure it is speculation... That's why I started this thread using the word speculate

 

[coladin]

I will let you know from the Ferrari paddock on Saturday

See you there! I will be wearing the Dr. Seuss chequered flag hat!

 

[Bileur]

I’d like to see Dorion ascend into a VP type position and the org acquire a new GM who could put his own crew in place.

Why would you give him even more power, over areas even further from scouting (the only thing he does well), rather than fire him?

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Why would you give him even more power, over areas even further from scouting (the only thing he does well), rather than fire him?

what do you like about his scouting? I think its kind of mixed personally. Obviously Karlsson was a big pick when Dorion was running the draft. Mann has run the draft since 2017 with the possible exception of intervention last year where he would have been directed to look for a type of player , Dorion wanted to insert into the roster. Mann would not be making the calls on roster building.

 

[Boud]

I’d like to see Dorion ascend into a VP type position and the org acquire a new GM who could put his own crew in place.

Why in the world would you ever want that....

 

[Bileur]

what do you like about his scouting? I think its kind of mixed personally. Obviously Karlsson was a big pick when Dorion was running the draft. Mann has run the draft since 2017 with the possible exception of intervention last year where he would have been directed to look for a type of player , Dorion wanted to insert into the roster. Mann would not be making the calls on roster building.

Sens had a nice run of decent success on top picks and home runs on late picks.

Aside from Karl, Smith and Boro in ‘08, the 09 draft had Silfverberg, Lehner, Wideman, Hoffman.
‘10 - Stone
‘11 - Zibanejad, Pageau, Dzingel, Claesson, McCormick
12’ Ceci, Dreidger
13’ , 14’ - Yikes
‘15 - Chabot

I don’t know how much of it is due to Dorion himself, but he should still get some credit. Any team getting legit NHL contributors in rounds 4-7 four years in a row (08-11) is doing something right.

 

[kilroy]

For sure it is speculation... That's why I started this thread using the word speculate

No you didn't. The thread's title is as plain as day and there's no use of speculation in it, and YOU didn't start it either.

Your "speculation" is as ridiculous as you're being. There's speculation and then there's fantasizing. You've merged into the fantasy lane, and at a fairly high speed too.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Sens had a nice run of decent success on top picks and home runs on late picks.

Aside from Karl, Smith and Boro in ‘08, the 09 draft had Silfverberg, Lehner, Wideman, Hoffman.
‘10 - Stone
‘11 - Zibanejad, Pageau, Dzingel, Claesson, McCormick
12’ Ceci, Dreidger
13’ , 14’ - Yikes
‘15 - Chabot

I don’t know how much of it is due to Dorion himself, but he should still get some credit. Any team getting legit NHL contributors in rounds 4-7 four years in a row (08-11) is doing something right.

10 Stone was a 6th rounder that turned; not many picks that draft; ]
11 6OA Zib... I liked the pick. He took some time but turned out very good, Pageau was a very good pick in the 4th... Also missed on 2 1st rounders in Puempel and Noesen.
12 Not sure I 'd call it a win
15 Chabot. Good pick for sure. Quality draft .. missed on White 21OA , missed on the trade up for Gagne
16 Doesn't look great Brown, Dahlen, Burgess, Lajoie, Nurmi

Some good picks .. many more misses. In fairness the drafts are full of misses. I'd call him NHL average at best at drafting. Which isn't terrible but I agree it is his strength.

 

[Loach]

10 Stone was a 6th rounder that turned; not many picks that draft; ]
11 6OA Zib... I liked the pick. He took some time but turned out very good, Pageau was a very good pick in the 4th... Also missed on 2 1st rounders in Puempel and Noesen.
12 Not sure I 'd call it a win
15 Chabot. Good pick for sure. Quality draft .. missed on White 21OA , missed on the trade up for Gagne
16 Doesn't look great Brown, Dahlen, Burgess, Lajoie, Nurmi

Some good picks .. many more misses. In fairness the drafts are full of misses. I'd call him NHL average at best at drafting. Which isn't terrible but I agree it is his strength.

So his strength is average? Lol

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

So his strength is average? Lol

at best lol

 

[Gil Gunderson]

I’d like to see Dorion ascend into a VP type position and the org acquire a new GM who could put his own crew in place.

lmao why?

 

[Tuna99]

So Dorion ousts McGuire and can't hang onto McTavish for this important off season. More intel out the door. More "not so nice things to say about Dorion" out the door. Dorion will have trouble attracting quality people to work for him I have no doubt about that.
Promoting Jim Clark may make some sense into McT's role if they can't find someone for it; not sure how he is with the numbers side.

I am happy for McTavish and wish him well.

Dorion also values loyalty above all else and his crew will sis quiting on him and getting fired / not good for a culture of loyalty

I think they'll even send their love to Tina99.

Assen na yo!

If you think calling me by a female name is going to make me feel insulted you’re wrong, it only makes you look like a low grade masoginist

 

[Tuna99]

Dorion should be fired not promoted

He’s failing forward, his hairline however is staying true to its duty and failing backward

 

[Bileur]

10 Stone was a 6th rounder that turned; not many picks that draft; ]
11 6OA Zib... I liked the pick. He took some time but turned out very good, Pageau was a very good pick in the 4th... Also missed on 2 1st rounders in Puempel and Noesen.
12 Not sure I 'd call it a win
15 Chabot. Good pick for sure. Quality draft .. missed on White 21OA , missed on the trade up for Gagne
16 Doesn't look great Brown, Dahlen, Burgess, Lajoie, Nurmi

Some good picks .. many more misses. In fairness the drafts are full of misses. I'd call him NHL average at best at drafting. Which isn't terrible but I agree it is his strength.

I think you’re being a bit harsh. Not all picks pan out.

Slotting guys from 2008-2011 into positions they were actually able to play in the NHL :

XXX - Zibanejad - Stone
Hoffman - XXX - Silfverberg
Smith - Pageau - XXX
Dzingel - Grant - XXX

XXX - Karlsson
XXX - Ceci
Borowiecki/Cowen/Wiercioch - Wideman

Lehner
Dreidger

In a four year span that’s pretty incredible. A Norris winner, Selke and Vezina finalists, a legit 1st line center. Other years weren’t as good to be sure, but I think that’s well above average overall.

I still believe Cowen could have figured it out enough to be a top 4 guy without the hip issues.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

I’d like to see Dorion ascend into a VP type position and the org acquire a new GM who could put his own crew in place.

Ascend or ass end?

Damn autocorrect, eh. Happens to the best of us.

 

[Sweatred]

Ascend or ass end?

Damn autocorrect, eh. Happens to the best of us.

I don’t intend on trying to explain this to “The 62”.

 

[OD99]

I don’t intend on trying to explain this to the “The 62”.

 

[JungleBeat]

Sens had a nice run of decent success on top picks and home runs on late picks.

Aside from Karl, Smith and Boro in ‘08, the 09 draft had Silfverberg, Lehner, Wideman, Hoffman.
‘10 - Stone
‘11 - Zibanejad, Pageau, Dzingel, Claesson, McCormick
12’ Ceci, Dreidger
13’ , 14’ - Yikes
‘15 - Chabot

I don’t know how much of it is due to Dorion himself, but he should still get some credit. Any team getting legit NHL contributors in rounds 4-7 four years in a row (08-11) is doing something right.

The guy behind those Swedish picks wasn’t Dorion. Also, why’s Claesson and McCormick listed?

 

[JD1]

No you didn't. The thread's title is as plain as day and there's no use of speculation in it, and YOU didn't start it either.

Your "speculation" is as ridiculous as you're being. There's speculation and then there's fantasizing. You've merged into the fantasy lane, and at a fairly high speed too.

My apologies. Got mixed up in what thread I was in. I started the thread on Quartexx and used the word speculate.

But as for the content of what you've written, there's lots of folks here that believe the team will be sold, lots that believe a big monied white knight is going to ride in and save the day.

So a big monied white knight, with a passion for hockey and from the neighbouring city, hires a contracts lawyer that works for the Sens. Na. Nothing to SPECULATE on that.

 

[Bileur]

The guy behind those Swedish picks wasn’t Dorion. Also, why’s Claesson and McCormick listed?

Pretty sure I read about Dorion begging Murray to trade up for EK. Either way he was directing the scouts at that time he should get credit (and to be clear, I think Dorion is an incompetent GM who should be fired).

Late picks that became good organizational depth. Not great « hits » by any means but if you can turn your misses into AHL depth as opposed to guys never heard from again like Peltz and Koopman you’re doing something right.

 

[JungleBeat]

Pretty sure I read about Dorion begging Murray to trade up for EK. Either way he was directing the scouts at that time he should get credit (and to be clear, I think Dorion is an incompetent GM who should be fired).

Late picks that became good organizational depth. Not great « hits » by any means but if you can turn your misses into AHL depth as opposed to guys never heard from again like Peltz and Koopman you’re doing something right.

Do you have a source for that? Anders Forsberg was behind the Swedish success, it’s no surprise that we drafted plenty of Swedes while he was here. Bob Lowes was also the reason we got Stone. I don’t believe Dorion has it in him to direct anybody o do things - he’s the same guy that follows exactly what the coach tells him to do.

The biggest factor in Ottawa's sudden love for all
things three-crowned: Swedish scout Anders
Forsberg, hired by the Senators during the 2007
08 season, and now a coach of Skelleftea of the
Swedish Elite League.
Forsberg was recommended to the Senators by
renowned Detroit Red Wings Swedish scout Hakan Anderson (think Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Holmstrom…..). Senators general manager Bryan Murray, a Red Wings GM and coach in the early 1905,had worked with Anderson in Detroit.

Today, Murray says the fact the Senators have
drafted eight Swedes since hiring Forsberg comes down to having faith in their scouts, and the Senators have beefed up their scouting presence around the globe. Forsberg's greatest gift to the organization: Karlsson, Ottawa's 15th pick in 2008.

 

[Ouroboros]

Do you have a source for that? Anders Forsberg was behind the Swedish success, it’s no surprise that we drafted plenty of Swedes while he was here. Bob Lowes was also the reason we got Stone. I don’t believe Dorion has it in him to direct anybody o do things - he’s the same guy that follows exactly what the coach tells him to do.

Tim Murray told this story on the radio a few years after Karlsson was drafted. Apparently Anders Forsberg and Pierre Dorion were pleading with Bryan Murray to move up so they could secure Erik Karlsson. They had intel that Anaheim were taking him at 17 - one pick ahead of the Senators at 18.

Murray didn't want to do it at first - his preference was to stay put and draft Tyler Cuma. Eventually he was persuaded, but he made sort of comment along the lines of 'moving up to get a 5'10" defenseman? You won't be working for me very long if this doesn't pan out'.

Dorion was the chief amateur scout for the Senators at that time. He had the final say on all draft picks.

 

[Knave]

Personally I don't mind crediting Dorion with being a good scout, a good manager of scouts, a good AGM with a focus on scouting. I think at the very least he's shown himself to be competent and capable having survived this long.

But I think he's proven he doesn't belong as a GM or President of Hockey Operations. He's just not that good at eyeing NHL talent, his gambles are reckless and have handcuffed this team and he seems to have a bit of a bad streak where he's either blaming others or trying to concentrate power in his own hands - I'm talking along the lines of firing Pierre McGuire.

That's not the end of the world. AGMs and head scouts make a decent living. Pierre Dorion can do those jobs, no doubt about it.

 

[Bileur]

Do you have a source for that? Anders Forsberg was behind the Swedish success, it’s no surprise that we drafted plenty of Swedes while he was here. Bob Lowes was also the reason we got Stone. I don’t believe Dorion has it in him to direct anybody o do things - he’s the same guy that follows exactly what the coach tells him to do.

« Karlsson’s size was the topic when Murray and Pierre Dorion - then the Senators’ director of player personnel - discussed what they were going to do with the pick. Murray was skeptical about Karlsson’s size. Dorion remembered Murray saying, ‘You know I like big bodies.’ Dorion pleaded his case, saying this would be the best pick for the long-term benefit of the club.

Murray finished off by asking Dorion, ‘How long do you want to work for me?’

Dorion answered, ‘A long time, but I know this is the right pick.’ »

100 Things Senators Fans Should Know & Do Before they Die, Chris Stevenson, Triumph Books, 2018, page 102.

Really fun book. Totally worth the investment.

Even if Forsberg was the boots on the ground scout, the scouting buck stopped with Dorion. Dorion didn’t have to pound the table like he did and put his head on the chopping block, with a direct question like « how long do you want to work for me? ». He did put his head on the block and he was right.

Realistically, if Dorion answers that question « well… this is the guy Forsberg recommends » do the Sens trade up? Probably not.

He deserves credit for having stepped up and pounded the table.