Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[PlayersLtd]

It seems like every year there is another player pushing that I’m stoked on. Grieg, Kleven, Boucher, JBD, Tompson, Ostapchuk, Sokolov, Jarventie, Soogard are all young players that I’m pretty stoked on. I think these guys all have a good chance to be NHLers at least.

We’ll have another couple high pucks this year to add as well (hopefully) so we should be seeing quality kids pushing to make the team for several years to come already.

Totally. Watching the team mature, including the prospects that are coming up the pipe, is worth the price of admission alone. I love this group for so many reasons not the least of which is that they are easy to connect to and they are very likeable. And it is just getting started when you consider their ascent and that of the next wave of prospects.

Rookie camp can't come soon enough.

 

[JD1]

It seems like every year there is another player pushing that I’m stoked on. Grieg, Kleven, Boucher, JBD, Tompson, Ostapchuk, Sokolov, Jarventie, Soogard are all young players that I’m pretty stoked on. I think these guys all have a good chance to be NHLers at least.

We’ll have another couple high pucks this year to add as well (hopefully) so we should be seeing quality kids pushing to make the team for several years to come already.

A lot of nice names on that list

The team has to be pretty excited with Ostapchuk's playoff performance

 

[Tuna99]

For all the ink on how good an amateur scout PD was, the only players he has on the roster that were drafted before Trent Mann became Chief Scout are Chabot and White (who he might be buying out) - all these players should be in the prime now but there aren’t any.

 

[Bevans]

For all the ink on how good an amateur scout PD was, the only players he has on the roster that were drafted before Trent Mann became Chief Scout are Chabot and White (who he might be buying out) - all these players should be in the prime now but there aren’t any.

He was chief Scout for 2 drafts. 10 of the 16 picks played 200+ games.

Those 16 do not include white or chabot

 

[BondraTime]

He was chief Scout for 2 drafts. 10 of the 16 picks played 200+ games.

Those 16 do not include white or chabot

He was director of scouting from 2008-2014, until he moved into the Asst. GM role, where he was still in charge of the drafts.

Just went under different names, there was nobody under the title for 4 years, Dorion was director of player development with the same scouting role, and Bob Lowe’s who was working under Dorion took over as our head amateur scout in 2014-15, still worked under Dorion at the drafts.

 

[Big Muddy]

Found this article about rebuilds and how long they should take interesting.

How long should an NHL rebuild take? - TSN.ca

It’s about as broad a question as you can ask, but it’s also a critically important one if you are an organization going through the natural rebuilding cycle. Travis Yost has more.

www.tsn.ca

Here's a rough summary.

After five (5) years of rebuilding, the following occurred:

a. 45% of the rebuilding teams made the playoffs

b. Approximately 20% finished in the bottom five of the standings

c. About 12% had a top 5 finish in the league.

Given that 5 years tends to be mentioned frequently as the metric, this is year 5 of our rebuild if you use the Karlsson trade as the start date.

 

[GCK]

Found this article about rebuilds and how long they should take interesting.

How long should an NHL rebuild take? - TSN.ca

It’s about as broad a question as you can ask, but it’s also a critically important one if you are an organization going through the natural rebuilding cycle. Travis Yost has more.

www.tsn.ca

Here's a rough summary.

After five (5) years of rebuilding, the following occurred:

a. 45% of the rebuilding teams made the playoffs

b. Approximately 20% finished in the bottom five of the standings

c. About 12% had a top 5 finish in the league.

Given that 5 years tends to be mentioned frequently as the metric, this is year 5 of our rebuild if you use the Karlsson trade as the start date.

I use the 2018 draft as the start so yes this will be year 5 in my eyes.

 

[Sweatred]

Since 2018 we only have one OTT first round pick in our lineup (Brady). You can go back to 2015 and it’s two (Chabot). Jimmy came from a SJ pick.

The Rebuild for a franchise that can’t attract UFA’s or NTC’s is going nowhere until they get first round talent in the lineup.

That should start this year or next year when Lassi, JBD, Greig,, Boucher, and 7OA hopefully start contributing.

 

[Big Muddy]

Hopefully people read the article. The data that was used was for a ten year period and hence would encompass a decent number of rebuilds varying over a wide set of circumstances. Always a good idea to read first before offering opinions/excuses you'd think.

 

[Cosmix]

Can Dorion move Murray if given the chance ? Dorion and DJ will be on the hot seat to start the season. A slow start will probably be their end.

It’s a risky move for Dorion to tie his future to Forsberg and Gus.

Dorion already tied himself to Murray!

 

[Cosmix]

Hard to imagine a man handling it with more ease; The list does seem to be growing however

Might as well keep Del Zotto as his buyout savings are low and we could use him as a 7th D on the roster in case of injuries.

 

[thinkwild]

When the Sens first returned in the 90's, the suggestion i think they made was that Ottawa was on a 5 to 11 yr plan to win the Cup. Because we had more knowledgeable hockey fans than Tampa it was said, we could be more patient than them who seemed to be making an appeal to the 3 yr rebuild fairy .

Its tough to apply some sort of metric to this as in- rebuilds should always follow some pattern and timeline, because each rebuild is vastly different based on the quality of players they drafted. And so each will have a unique expectation of how long it will take. I still think the tortoise approach can find advantages over the hare here though.

 

[JackieDaytona]

Since 2018 we only have one OTT first round pick in our lineup (Brady). You can go back to 2015 and it’s two (Chabot). Jimmy came from a SJ pick.

The Rebuild for a franchise that can’t attract UFA’s or NTC’s is going nowhere until they get first round talent in the lineup.

That should start this year or next year when Lassi, JBD, Greig,, Boucher, and 7OA hopefully start contributing.

We certainly have 'first round talent' playing in the lineup drafted since 2015, just managed to get it in later rounds =]
It's fair criticism that we could have done better (or better sooner perhaps - lots of NCAA picks who often take their time before arriving) in the first round, but I suppose we also need to give credit for good picks after the first round...

 

[Micklebot]

Since 2018 we only have one OTT first round pick in our lineup (Brady). You can go back to 2015 and it’s two (Chabot). Jimmy came from a SJ pick.

The Rebuild for a franchise that can’t attract UFA’s or NTC’s is going nowhere until they get first round talent in the lineup.

That should start this year or next year when Lassi, JBD, Greig,, Boucher, and 7OA hopefully start contributing.

Why does it matter that we picked Stutzle with the pick we got from SJ in this context? JBD was the Boston/ranger's pick, and Lassi Thomson was Clb's, Greig was NYI, do they not count too?

 

[Sweatred]

Why does it matter that we picked Stutzle with the pick we got from SJ in this context? JBD was the Boston/ranger's pick, and Lassi Thomson was Clb's, Greig was NYI, do they not count too?

Not really - there is a glaring hole in this admins ability to get their first round picks into the lineup. They have patched up a few holes
With later round picks and acquired picks - but we should see a lot more then two player from the last 10 first rounds.

The rangers are pumping their first round picks directly into the lineup.

 

[Micklebot]

Not really - there is a glaring hole in this admins ability to get their first round picks into the lineup. They have patched up a few holes
With later round picks and acquired picks - but we should se a lot more then two player from the last 10 first rounds.

I don't think Tampa played anyone from their last 10 1st rounds in the finals. Maybe Foote? Actually, scratch that, Vasi was their 2nd 1st round pick (picked up from Det) in 2012. They do have key players acquired via trading those guys/picks though, Sergachev for Drouin, McDonaugh for Howeden and Namestnikov (a 2011 pick).

Tbay has three key 1st round picks, Stamkos Vasi and Hedman. Not sure if we'll be able to get a similar impact those three provide out of Chabot, Sanderson, Tkachuk and Stutzle, plus whatever other 1st rounders we pick, but we've got some talent from the top of the draft no doubt.

 

[Sweatred]

I don't think Tampa played anyone from their last 10 1st rounds in the finals. Maybe Foote? Actually, scratch that, Vasi was their 2nd 1st round pick (picked up from Det) in 2012. They do have key players acquired via trading those guys/picks though, Sergachev for Drouin, McDonaugh for Howeden and Namestnikov (a 2011 pick).

Tbay has three key 1st round picks, Stamkos Vasi and Hedman. Not sure if we'll be able to get a similar impact those three provide out of Chabot, Sanderson, Tkachuk and Stutzle, plus whatever other 1st rounders we pick, but we've got some talent from the top of the draft no doubt.

Tampa is living off former early picks - now they trade them all away.

They also attack players up their market and are not solely limited to acquiring via the draft or trading away superstars.

Anyway, my point was that we won’t be good until we get some useful minutes out of our first round talent.

Our rebuild is focused on draft picks and picks/prospects acquired via our sell off…. So far our 1RD draft picks haven’t amounted to much other than Brady (Chabot is not part of the rebuild).

 

[JD1]

Found this article about rebuilds and how long they should take interesting.

How long should an NHL rebuild take? - TSN.ca

It’s about as broad a question as you can ask, but it’s also a critically important one if you are an organization going through the natural rebuilding cycle. Travis Yost has more.

www.tsn.ca

Here's a rough summary.

After five (5) years of rebuilding, the following occurred:

a. 45% of the rebuilding teams made the playoffs

b. Approximately 20% finished in the bottom five of the standings

c. About 12% had a top 5 finish in the league.

Given that 5 years tends to be mentioned frequently as the metric, this is year 5 of our rebuild if you use the Karlsson trade as the start date.

That's a great article. Thanks for posting that. I generally don't like Yost as I find he usually starts with a conclusion and then looks for data to support it.

Rebuilds are interesting. Look at Buffalo and Edmonton. I'm not sure they ever officially were rebuilding. They just perpetually sucked due to lousy Mgmt. NYR wrote a letter to their fans saying they were rebuilding and promptly signed Panarin and got Fox for free.

All the criticism of Dorion aside, I do think he had an actual plan to tear it completely apart and then build it back up. There's been some bumps. But I think we're in good position moving forward from here. We're in a clear up cycle and some of our conference competitors are entering down cycles

 

[Big Muddy]

That's a great article. Thanks for posting that. I generally don't like Yost as I find he usually starts with a conclusion and then looks for data to support it.

Rebuilds are interesting. Look at Buffalo and Edmonton. I'm not sure they ever officially were rebuilding. They just perpetually sucked due to lousy Mgmt. NYR wrote a letter to their fans saying they were rebuilding and promptly signed Panarin and got Fox for free.

All the criticism of Dorion aside, I do think he had an actual plan to tear it completely apart and then build it back up. There's been some bumps. But I think we're in good position moving forward from here. We're in a clear up cycle and some of our conference competitors are entering down cycles

I thought it was a decent article because it just focused on the data basically. That way the numbers speak for themselves.

We are doing better than the worse rebuilds (you gave some examples). Yet, at the same time, I think its very reasonable to expect this year to be pivotal in the evaluation. If we make the playoffs, all is well. If not, we are behind the average timeline for a rebuild (the bottom 55% percentile to be more exact).

Thanks for your feedback btw.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Can Dorion move Murray if given the chance ? Dorion and DJ will be on the hot seat to start the season. A slow start will probably be their end.

It’s a risky move for Dorion to tie his future to Forsberg and Gus.

It was risky to tie it to Murray. It failed completely. He’s still there.

 

[Sweatred]

It was risky to tie it to Murray. It failed completely. He’s still there.

Murray’s been brutal but it’s been the light half of the contract less whatever players lost for Covid.

The Murray story isn’t over.

 

[swiftwin]

It was risky to tie it to Murray. It failed completely. He’s still there.

Last summer, many wanted to tie it to Gus and didn't like us extending Forsberg for 1 year. Yet, here we are...

Goalies are weird. We need to keep as many irons in the fire as possible. Murray has shown flashes of brilliance. We need to keep both Murray and Forsberg.

 

[Big Muddy]

Why does it matter that we picked Stutzle with the pick we got from SJ in this context? JBD was the Boston/ranger's pick, and Lassi Thomson was Clb's, Greig was NYI, do they not count too?

Rebuilding teams frequently trade a star player for picks that become good roster players in the future. You are correct that's it doesn't
matter and its in fact very common for rebuilding teams.

 

[Knave]

Last summer, many wanted to tie it to Gus and didn't like us extending Forsberg for 1 year. Yet, here we are...

Goalies are weird. We need to keep as many irons in the fire as possible. Murray has shown flashes of brilliance. We need to keep both Murray and Forsberg.

Murray is also getting paid truckloads of money and we're not going to be adding anything significant if he stays on the roster getting paid what is it this coming year? 7M?

I don't think people understand - he will be our highest paid player next year. Tied for second highest paid player next year.

The only good thing about the Murray contract is it might sink Dorion because it handcuffs him from any additions that might allow this team to sneak into the playoffs. And 6 years straight of missing the playoffs has to be the breaking point where he gets fired. If not we're a f***ing embarrassment the likes of which this league has never seen before.

 

[Loach]

Murray is also getting paid truckloads of money and we're not going to be adding anything significant if he stays on the roster getting paid what is it this coming year? 7M?

I don't think people understand - he will be our highest paid player next year. Tied for second highest paid player next year.

The only good thing about the Murray contract is it might sink Dorion because it handcuffs him from any additions that might allow this team to sneak into the playoffs. And 6 years straight of missing the playoffs has to be the breaking point where he gets fired. If not we're a f***ing embarrassment the likes of which this league has never seen before.

Murray has shown flashes of a goalie that went on a hot streak at the perfect time, playing with a Vezina partner, at exactly the right time, for a team that had great players. He then got paid for that after showing that he is inconsistant and injury prone for 2 years after his run. Boggles the mind.