Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[AchtzehnBaby]

Anyone else keep getting logged out of HFBoards

Yes. Something up. I get logged out when I go to the Leafs page…. Thought it was on purpose…

What device and what browser?

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Anyone else keep getting logged out of HFBoards

Its a sign.

What platform?

 

[Mingus Dew]

I’m getting logged out on Safari on iOS.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

I’m getting logged out on Safari on iOS.

Okay. Thanks

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

No problems here even though I'm sure some of you would like me forcibly logged out. Too bad.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Yes. Something up. I get logged out when I go to the Leafs page…. Thought it was on purpose…

What device and what browser?

Its a sign.

What platform?

Android. Google chrome.

 

[Coffees]

Anyone else keep getting logged out of HFBoards

Dude change your password

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Android. Google chrome.

I'm on chrome w no issues. Not Android though. Could it be a Cookie setting in Chrome got changed?

 

[Coffees]

Did you change it ? @Pierre from Orleans

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

I'm on chrome w no issues. Not Android though. Could it be a Cookie setting in Chrome got changed?

It is being looked into…. Kinda weird - you can go back to page and u are still logged in…

 

[JD1]

I’m starting to think Dorion and Bowness both keep their jobs with Andlauer bringing in a POHO and maybe a Sr Advisor.

In this scenario Dorion stays as GM but he would not have the final say in Hockey Ops decisions, he would in reality be more of an AGM, he’s already paid like an AGM.

To your point, isn't it just really a discussion about titles? Wouldn't any GM that reports to a VP or P of hockey ops be really just an AGM because they don't have final say?

I wonder how that might play out legally. Currently PD is GM and has final say. If you bring in a POHO, that position has final say. In the non hockey world, that's constructive dismissal.

 

[Micklebot]

To your point, isn't it just really a discussion about titles? Wouldn't any GM that reports to a VP or P of hockey ops be really just an AGM because they don't have final say?

I wonder how that might play out legally. Currently PD is GM and has final say. If you bring in a POHO, that position has final say. In the non hockey world, that's constructive dismissal.

Would it still constitute constructive dismissal if the position of POHO was already established within the org chart, but left vacant? I'm also not sure Dorion has ever had final say, he's been going through the board, no? Prior to that, perhaps Melnyk (for example, coaching hires had to go to Barbados even in the days of Murray...)?

 

[JD1]

Would it still constitute constructive dismissal if the position of POHO was already established within the org chart, but left vacant? I'm also not sure Dorion has ever had final say, he's been going through the board, no? Prior to that, perhaps Melnyk (for example, coaching hires had to go to Barbados even in the days of Murray...)?

To your first question, no it wouldn't be assuming his job description noted that's where he reports.

"Final" say is a bit of a nebulous concept

 

[BondraTime]

Not sure there would be an issue, in my extremely uneducated take on the matter with zero relevant situations in my career to go by.

Could Andlauer not veto trades/signings the exact same way that Melnyk was able to? What would be the difference if the new owner added a POHO to the mix? Would he not supersede whatever role Dorion was previously given under different management?

 

[Mingus Dew]

To your point, isn't it just really a discussion about titles? Wouldn't any GM that reports to a VP or P of hockey ops be really just an AGM because they don't have final say?

I wonder how that might play out legally. Currently PD is GM and has final say. If you bring in a POHO, that position has final say. In the non hockey world, that's constructive dismissal.

That seems a stretch. Pretty much every team in the NHL has a POHO that has "final say", at least on paper, on hockey decisions.

He's answering to the board now and to Melnyk before that.

 

[BondraTime]

To your point, isn't it just really a discussion about titles? Wouldn't any GM that reports to a VP or P of hockey ops be really just an AGM because they don't have final say?

I wonder how that might play out legally. Currently PD is GM and has final say. If you bring in a POHO, that position has final say. In the non hockey world, that's constructive dismissal.

They definitely don't have the control that they would want, as we just saw with the Dubas/Shanahan situation. Dubas wanted more control, and he got it in Pittsburgh.

 

[JD1]

They definitely don't have the control that they would want, as we just saw with the Dubas/Shanahan situation. Dubas wanted more control, and he got it in Pittsburgh.

Ok to the point I am making and I'll add a few others because a few guys have chimed in

@Micklebot
@Mingus Dew

Ultimately owners have final say. I think we can all agree on that. Many times we've heard some GM say "I want to thank my owner for approving this contract" kind of statement and that to me makes sense. In the economics of the NHL, if you sign someone to a 70M contract, you're signing away someone else's money so I'm quite certain that all owners get involved at certain points. 15M contracts? Probably not. But if any position, be it GM or POHO has to go to ownership, then they don't have the final say..

But, GM versus POHO versus VP of hockey ops. They're just titles. Ultimately it's more an issue of which position deals directly with ownership. In Ottawa's current situation that title is GM. In Toronto it was Shanahan who I think is called POHO? And ultimately that's what Dubas wanted. He and Dorion had the same titles but it seems Dorion had more authority

In Dorion's case, if Andlauer comes along and inserts a position between him and Dorion....which is probably a good thing...in the non hockey universe that's generally constructive dismissal. Dorion would have less authority but the same title/salary and that's generally a problem.

 

[BondraTime]

Ok to the point I am making and I'll add a few others because a few guys have chimed in

@Micklebot
@Mingus Dew

Ultimately owners have final say. I think we can all agree on that. Many times we've heard some GM say "I want to thank my owner for approving this contract" kind of statement and that to me makes sense. In the economics of the NHL, if you sign someone to a 70M contract, you're signing away someone else's money so I'm quite certain that all owners get involved at certain points. 15M contracts? Probably not. But if any position, be it GM or POHO has to go to ownership, then they don't have the final say..

But, GM versus POHO versus VP of hockey ops. They're just titles. Ultimately it's more an issue of which position deals directly with ownership. In Ottawa's current situation that title is GM. In Toronto it was Shanahan who I think is called POHO? And ultimately that's what Dubas wanted. He and Dorion had the same titles but it seems Dorion had more authority

In Dorion's case, if Andlauer comes along and inserts a position between him and Dorion....which is probably a good thing...in the non hockey universe that's generally constructive dismissal. Dorion would have less authority but the same title/salary and that's generally a problem.

I don't think it would be an issue, as the Sens were looking for a POHO while Doiron was the GM under Melnyk's tenure, with a very widely publicized search in 2019.

“The Senators intend to hire a president of hockey operations to support and provide guidance to the general manager, and to fill the void left by the late Bryan Murray,” the statement said.

“The position is integral to the success of the hockey club, especially as we continue our rebuilding process, hiring a top-notch candidate to fill this role is critically important.”

I'd "think" that a POHO would just slide right in, and even if Dorion felt wronged, don't think there would be anything that could be done.

Ottawa Senators looking to hire president of hockey operations to help with rebuild - Ottawa | Globalnews.ca

The Senators confirmed with a statement on Saturday that the club is planning to hire a new president of hockey operations to work with GM Pierre Dorion.

globalnews.ca

I think like you said it would be a different situation in non-pro sport professions.

Dubas had multiple trades and moves veto'd by Shanahan according to reports. Shanahan could put a kibosh to moves the GM wanted, whether he did that or not remains to be seen.

 

[Micklebot]

Ok to the point I am making and I'll add a few others because a few guys have chimed in

@Micklebot
@Mingus Dew

Ultimately owners have final say. I think we can all agree on that. Many times we've heard some GM say "I want to thank my owner for approving this contract" kind of statement and that to me makes sense. In the economics of the NHL, if you sign someone to a 70M contract, you're signing away someone else's money so I'm quite certain that all owners get involved at certain points. 15M contracts? Probably not. But if any position, be it GM or POHO has to go to ownership, then they don't have the final say..

But, GM versus POHO versus VP of hockey ops. They're just titles. Ultimately it's more an issue of which position deals directly with ownership. In Ottawa's current situation that title is GM. In Toronto it was Shanahan who I think is called POHO? And ultimately that's what Dubas wanted. He and Dorion had the same titles but it seems Dorion had more authority

In Dorion's case, if Andlauer comes along and inserts a position between him and Dorion....which is probably a good thing...in the non hockey universe that's generally constructive dismissal. Dorion would have less authority but the same title/salary and that's generally a problem.

What was interesting was when Pierre McGuire came in, Dorion was very vocal that he still made the decisions, McGuire reports to him, this was after the very public POHO search mentioned by Bondra,

Ultimately, I don't really think it matters much, I suppose Dorion could "quit" and continue to collect his paycheck if he didn't like the new arrangement, his contract runs through next season (so two years) so maybe he goes that route, idk.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

I’m starting to think Dorion and Bowness both keep their jobs with Andlauer bringing in a POHO and maybe a Sr Advisor.

In this scenario Dorion stays as GM but he would not have the final say in Hockey Ops decisions, he would in reality be more of an AGM, he’s already paid like an AGM.

In a perfect world Dorion would be an AGM. He's great when it comes to drafting and developing players, but he absolutely shits the bed when it comes to pro scouting.

Its possible that whatever people he has in place to depend on when it comes to pro scouting are dropping the ball, and with a better staff he might fix that issue but I dunno.

Time and time again he has made moves that have hurt the club. Granted he's made great trades, but Duchene, Murray, all the buyouts and not knowing that Debrincat would sign long term have taken a chunk out of what could be an absolutely stacked franchise.

Either insulate him and give him a short leash, or move on from the guy.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Ok to the point I am making and I'll add a few others because a few guys have chimed in

@Micklebot
@Mingus Dew

Ultimately owners have final say. I think we can all agree on that. Many times we've heard some GM say "I want to thank my owner for approving this contract" kind of statement and that to me makes sense. In the economics of the NHL, if you sign someone to a 70M contract, you're signing away someone else's money so I'm quite certain that all owners get involved at certain points. 15M contracts? Probably not. But if any position, be it GM or POHO has to go to ownership, then they don't have the final say..

But, GM versus POHO versus VP of hockey ops. They're just titles. Ultimately it's more an issue of which position deals directly with ownership. In Ottawa's current situation that title is GM. In Toronto it was Shanahan who I think is called POHO? And ultimately that's what Dubas wanted. He and Dorion had the same titles but it seems Dorion had more authority

In Dorion's case, if Andlauer comes along and inserts a position between him and Dorion....which is probably a good thing...in the non hockey universe that's generally constructive dismissal. Dorion would have less authority but the same title/salary and that's generally a problem.

Disagree, because we didn’t have that position recently, most teams do have that position , and now Sens will, now that EM isn’t there anymore.
Not having that position when team was cheap, doesn’t mean now changing to having it, is like a dismissal. Just means filling in a position that was vacant for a while.

 

[benjiv1]

Going to add some context without getting myself in trouble.

I had heard before Canada Day that there was something going on between Trent and PD.

I mentioned that he was not allowed in the “War Room” on trade deadline day obviously he was around for the draft.

Keep in mind, hypothetically if there was any sort of investigation as to what was going on with Troy Mann, this might have had to do with some of the confusion regarding what Trent had access to and when.

I hadn’t personally heard about Mann being banned from the building, etc, but it’s entirely possible they met internally at some point and Trent was allowed his access again etc.

 

[Micklebot]

Disagree, because we didn’t have that position recently, most teams do have that position , and now Sens will, now that EM isn’t there anymore.
Not having that position when team was cheap, doesn’t mean now changing to having it, is like a dismissal. Just means filling in a position that was vacant for a while.

It's worth noting that Bryan Murray was made the POHO (second title) when he was extended as GM for 4 years back in 2014. 5 months after getting that extension he was diagnosed with Stage 4 colon cancer.

When Dorion took over in 2016, he only took the GM role, POHO wasn't mentioned (likely because the intent at the time it was initially given to murray was for Murray to ease his way into retirement with it and provide a transition for the next GM which was always expected to be an internal hire).

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Going to add some context without getting myself in trouble.

I had heard before Canada Day that there was something going on between Trent and PD.

I mentioned that he was not allowed in the “War Room” on trade deadline day obviously he was around for the draft.

Keep in mind, hypothetically if there was any sort of investigation as to what was going on with Troy Mann, this might have had to do with some of the confusion regarding what Trent had access to and when.

I hadn’t personally heard about Mann being banned from the building, etc, but it’s entirely possible they met internally at some point and Trent was allowed his access again etc.

It was in an article from February that there were issues going on. Trent and Troy are brothers. It was not going to end well no matter. You always side with family.

 

[StoicSensFan]

It was in an article from February that there were issues going on. Trent and Troy are brothers. It was not going to end well no matter. You always side with family.

Unless it affects your personal or immediate family's livelihood, sure.