Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[swiftwin]

he will definitly bring in his own people. Its standard practice to have your people in places where they can evaluate the status of the franchise. That will happen fairly quickly. Does that mean Dorion is gone right away? Who knows but they will bring in some sort of president/advisor who will be vetting the moves that Dorion wants to make

I definitely agree that bringing in a POHO is the obvious first course of action. It's very convenient that this position is vacant right now.

 

[JD1]

Here's another hypothetical for you.

Is Dorion asking permission for any moves by the owner/board at this point in time, or just running with it as the acting GM?

I mean, he didn't fire DJ Smith, but he still recommended to the ownership (board and Andlauer) that they retain DJ Smith and the coaching staff. Does he mean "after I am inevitably canned"? Typically it's the GM that fires the coach, no?

If I'm Andlauer, and I'm taking over the team, would you run Dorion's moves by some other advisor in the interim? He obviously can't run them by Staios who is currently employed by a competing team, but someone else? Potentially a currently unemployed guy that you're planning on bringing in?

Or do you just watch Dorion potentially run the team into the ground right before you assume control?

I think Dorion has been pretty clear that he's running things by the board.

I'm kind of indifferent to whether he stays or goes but I think it's a stretch to say he's running the team into the ground. I think like all GMs, except for the minutiae, anything with significant financial and or player movements has to be run up the ladder

 

[NyQuil]

I'm kind of indifferent to whether he stays or goes but I think it's a stretch to say he's running the team into the ground. I think like all GMs, except for the minutiae, anything with significant financial and or player movements has to be run up the ladder

It was more of a hypothetical situation if he tried something outlandish.

To be fair, I don't think anything he's done in the past few months is insane or anything.

 

[swiftwin]

Sorry pal. It is fiasco after fiasco with this front office up to, and including, yesterday with the Mann brothers saga. None of these leaks and flat out weird incidents are good for business.

As a rock solid business man I'd wager Andlauer feels that way as well.

99% of fans don't care about these things. They only care about the team and the players.

It's there's legitimate turmoil behind the scenes that is affecting the team, then yeah, sure. But "it looks bad" is not a valid argument. These things happen in every organization. Just look at the drama around Shanahan and how he handled Dubas. Or look at the Dale Tallon era in Florida.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Here's another hypothetical for you.

Is Dorion asking permission for any moves by the owner/board at this point in time, or just running with it as the acting GM?

I mean, he didn't fire DJ Smith, but he still recommended to the ownership (board and Andlauer) that they retain DJ Smith and the coaching staff. Does he mean "after I am inevitably canned"? Typically it's the GM that fires the coach, no?

If I'm Andlauer, and I'm taking over the team, would you run Dorion's moves by some other advisor in the interim? He obviously can't run them by Staios who is currently employed by a competing team, but someone else? Potentially a currently unemployed guy that you're planning on bringing in?

Or do you just watch Dorion potentially run the team into the ground right before you assume control?

I am sure Dorion and board are all in contact with Andlauer''s group about any decisions that are not considered 'day to day'.

 

[swiftwin]

It was more of a hypothetical situation if he tried something outlandish.

To be fair, I don't think anything he's done in the past few months is insane or anything.

I don't think he will. I think Dorion genuinely cares about the team. This will be his legacy after all. There's no reason for him to run it into the ground.

 

[NyQuil]

I don't think he will. I think Dorion genuinely cares about the team. This will be his legacy after all. There's no reason for him to run it into the ground.

I don't either. Not to mention, he will still need other employment.

The resume of a GM is readily apparent.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Here's another hypothetical for you.

Is Dorion asking permission for any moves by the owner/board at this point in time, or just running with it as the acting GM?

I mean, he didn't fire DJ Smith, but he still recommended to the ownership (board and Andlauer) that they retain DJ Smith and the coaching staff. Does he mean "after I am inevitably canned"? Typically it's the GM that fires the coach, no?

If I'm Andlauer, and I'm taking over the team, would you run Dorion's moves by some other advisor in the interim? He obviously can't run them by Staios who is currently employed by a competing team, but someone else? Potentially a currently unemployed guy that you're planning on bringing in?

Or do you just watch Dorion potentially run the team into the ground right before you assume control?

Any moves ... not sure.
I believe Dorion mentioned he was in calls with Andlauer and Plener. Anything of significance would likely follow that.
Getting down to the crunch here with Pinto to be signed and Cap space concerns.. and the need to add to the roster so there are some scenarios to consider for options. I am not sure how that kind of more encompassing thing would play out.

Yes, it's very similar to JP Ricciardi's tenure as a GM of the Blue Jays: an incompetent rookie GM asked to do more with less (Ricciardi traded all his expensive stars for peanuts, drastically reduced the Jays' scouting personnel and infrastructure, and had a terrible draft record), then suddenly given a bit of a boost with some middling budget bump for a 3-yr plan. The first 2 years were a fiasco (bad allocation of said budget bump), and he was let go before the 3rd year, just as the team actually started showing a bit of life.

Dorion is a goner no matter how the team does IMO.

Well earned position to be in.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

99% of fans don't care about these things. They only care about the team and the players.

It's there's legitimate turmoil behind the scenes that is affecting the team, then yeah, sure. But "it looks bad" is not a valid argument. These things happen in every organization. Just look at the drama around Shanahan and how he handled Dubas. Or look at the Dale Tallon era in Florida.

Dubas was let go. So was Tallon. And those weren't, and aren't successful teams.

Thanks for providing examples and a semblance of correlation.

Turmoil correlates with bad performance. Now let's get to work on proving the causation mechanisms.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Dubas was let go. So was Tallon. And those weren't, and aren't successful teams.

Thanks for providing examples and a semblance of correlation.

Turmoil correlates with bad performance. Now let's get to work on proving the causation mechanisms.

Nor has the amount of occurrences of drama been comparable. Every organization has the odd piece of it, obviously.

 

[swiftwin]

Dubas was let go. So was Tallon. And those weren't, and aren't successful teams.

Thanks for providing examples and a semblance of correlation.

Turmoil correlates with bad performance. Now let's get to work on proving the causation mechanisms.

Shanahan is still employed. Dubas is still a GM. Tallon is still a GM.

Nor has the amount of occurrences of drama been comparable. Every organization has the odd piece of it, obviously.

What other drama has there been besides the Mann firing, and fallout from it?

All I can think of was the McGuire hiring/firing, which was obviously a Melnyk thing that Dorion cleaned up. The Leeder thing and the Alfie things were also clearly the doing of Melnyk.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Shanahan is still employed. Dubas is still a GM. Tallon is still a GM.


What other drama has there been besides the Mann firing, and fallout from it?

All I can think of was the McGuire hiring/firing, which was obviously a Melnyk thing that Dorion cleaned up. The Leeder thing and the Alfie things were also clearly the doing of Melnyk.

If you're just referring to after Melnyk passed, ya there has been a big time reduction in drama, no denying that, but this Mann stuff, even if nothing nefarious, shows questionable handling again. I'm certainly not one to give him a complete pass during the Melnyk era either, I think he contributed plenty himself, but I'm not the judge and jury, so doesn't matter much.

I would also add that what he had Garrioch putting out during this DeBrincat saga I didn't like, but it's hard to qualify what exactly he was told to say and how that was actually said in the end.

 

[Mingus Dew]

I think Dorion has been pretty clear that he's running things by the board.

I'm kind of indifferent to whether he stays or goes but I think it's a stretch to say he's running the team into the ground. I think like all GMs, except for the minutiae, anything with significant financial and or player movements has to be run up the ladder

The members of the Board are not hockey minds though.

I expect they have in the past 100% deferred to Dorion on player personnel moves. They rubber stamp those decisions but I can't see them questioning a particular trade return, for example, other than to examine the economics of it.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Shanahan is still employed. Dubas is still a GM. Tallon is still a GM.


What other drama has there been besides the Mann firing, and fallout from it?

All I can think of was the McGuire hiring/firing, which was obviously a Melnyk thing that Dorion cleaned up. The Leeder thing and the Alfie things were also clearly the doing of Melnyk.

Neither Dubas or Tallon are GMs of hockey teams right now. Granted one of them has been given a nicer title than that.

The debrincat thing has not been handled well. If we're talking about only since Melnyk's passing? Year there have only been one or two crazy things happening. Under Dorion's watch while Melnyk was alive? Loads.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Neither Dubas or Tallon are GMs of hockey teams right now. Granted one of them has been given a nicer title than that.

The debrincat thing has not been handled well. If we're talking about only since Melnyk's passing? Year there have only been one or two crazy things happening. Under Dorion's watch while Melnyk was alive? Loads.

Dubas is acting GM at the moment. He hasn’t hired anyone yet, hard to say when that happens, said it might go into the season.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

If you're just referring to after Melnyk passed, ya there has been a big time reduction in drama, no denying that, but this Mann stuff, even if nothing nefarious, shows questionable handling again. I'm certainly not one to give him a complete pass during the Melnyk era either, I think he contributed plenty himself, but I'm not the judge and jury, so doesn't matter much.

I would also add that what he had Garrioch putting out during this DeBrincat saga I didn't like, but it's hard to qualify what exactly he was told to say and how that was actually said in the end.

"QUESTIONABLE HANDLING"

What could have been better for the recent termination? Please elaborate.

Trent or Troy? Show me where the ORGANIZATION used "QUESTIONABLE HANDLING"

From the HockeyWriters:

"Belleville Senators head coach Troy Mann had been fired after a 5-3 victory over the Rochester Americans on Feb. 2, and the news came as a shock to many. He had been head coach of the Ottawa Senators’ American Hockey League (AHL) team since the 2018-19 season, earning a coaching record of 150-117-15-7 with Belleville. Since the firing, there has been quite a bit of controversy to come out into the media.

Mann has been praised for his ability to develop prospects, as star players Josh Norris and Drake Batherson spent time with Mann in the AHL, but some depth pieces like Nick Paul and Mark Kastelic also flourished under the wing of the head coach. Being an AHL coach isn’t just about development, though. Belleville has had a disappointing season, and while many will point to the numerous injuries and call-ups as reasons for it, a coach’s duty is to win hockey games with whatever you have available. At the time of the firing, the Senators sat second last in the AHL’s Eastern Conference with a record of 17-22-3."

It is not often that an AHL coach getting fired on a struggling team generates any amount of noise, but this time was different. It seems anything that happens with the Senators tends to make its way into the media and usually ends up giving some people a bad reputation.

On the night of the firing, general manager (GM) Pierre Dorion and Belleville Senators GM Ryan Bowness came out with statements.

“A change like this is a difficult decision, but we are aligned internally and feel this is necessary for the short and long-term growth of the players in our organization as well as the cohesion in systematic play between Ottawa and Belleville.”
Ryan Bowness, Senators Press Release

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

"QUESTIONABLE HANDLING"

What could have been better for the recent termination? Please elaborate.

Trent or Troy? Show me where the ORGANIZATION used "QUESTIONABLE HANDLING"

From the HockeyWriters:

"Belleville Senators head coach Troy Mann had been fired after a 5-3 victory over the Rochester Americans on Feb. 2, and the news came as a shock to many. He had been head coach of the Ottawa Senators’ American Hockey League (AHL) team since the 2018-19 season, earning a coaching record of 150-117-15-7 with Belleville. Since the firing, there has been quite a bit of controversy to come out into the media.

Mann has been praised for his ability to develop prospects, as star players Josh Norris and Drake Batherson spent time with Mann in the AHL, but some depth pieces like Nick Paul and Mark Kastelic also flourished under the wing of the head coach. Being an AHL coach isn’t just about development, though. Belleville has had a disappointing season, and while many will point to the numerous injuries and call-ups as reasons for it, a coach’s duty is to win hockey games with whatever you have available. At the time of the firing, the Senators sat second last in the AHL’s Eastern Conference with a record of 17-22-3."

It is not often that an AHL coach getting fired on a struggling team generates any amount of noise, but this time was different. It seems anything that happens with the Senators tends to make its way into the media and usually ends up giving some people a bad reputation.

On the night of the firing, general manager (GM) Pierre Dorion and Belleville Senators GM Ryan Bowness came out with statements.

I guess we'll find out later, or maybe not ever, if there is truth to the drama . I think we both know which way you will lean and which way I will lean for who gets benefit of the doubt based on our biases, if we are left with not enough information. Either way, they were embroiled in some drama, again.

In general though, they have done a much better job of things since Melnyk was out of the picture and that deserves some attention.

 

[Knave]

Dorion after Ottawa is an interesting question. The falling out with the Mann brothers has been a strange saga. It's possible Dorion wasn't directly involved in it or that there is some ironclad evidence to justify the firings. If that's the case I think he finds a landing spot as a head scout or assistant GM.

But he was every bit the rookie GM with our team over the last 7 seasons. He's probably not getting a second crack at the position of GM for a while if ever. And that's okay. He can still be very valuable to a team out there. You need a bottom 6 just as much as you need a top 6 to win.

 

[GCK]

I’m starting to think Dorion and Bowness both keep their jobs with Andlauer bringing in a POHO and maybe a Sr Advisor.

In this scenario Dorion stays as GM but he would not have the final say in Hockey Ops decisions, he would in reality be more of an AGM, he’s already paid like an AGM.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

"QUESTIONABLE HANDLING"

What could have been better for the recent termination? Please elaborate.

Trent or Troy? Show me where the ORGANIZATION used "QUESTIONABLE HANDLING"

From the HockeyWriters:

"Belleville Senators head coach Troy Mann had been fired after a 5-3 victory over the Rochester Americans on Feb. 2, and the news came as a shock to many. He had been head coach of the Ottawa Senators’ American Hockey League (AHL) team since the 2018-19 season, earning a coaching record of 150-117-15-7 with Belleville. Since the firing, there has been quite a bit of controversy to come out into the media.

Mann has been praised for his ability to develop prospects, as star players Josh Norris and Drake Batherson spent time with Mann in the AHL, but some depth pieces like Nick Paul and Mark Kastelic also flourished under the wing of the head coach. Being an AHL coach isn’t just about development, though. Belleville has had a disappointing season, and while many will point to the numerous injuries and call-ups as reasons for it, a coach’s duty is to win hockey games with whatever you have available. At the time of the firing, the Senators sat second last in the AHL’s Eastern Conference with a record of 17-22-3."

It is not often that an AHL coach getting fired on a struggling team generates any amount of noise, but this time was different. It seems anything that happens with the Senators tends to make its way into the media and usually ends up giving some people a bad reputation.

On the night of the firing, general manager (GM) Pierre Dorion and Belleville Senators GM Ryan Bowness came out with statements.

Wouldn't it be great if thats all there was to it. A breakdown in communication and disagreement over systems .. No "could be" lawsuit, no accusations leaked, no nothing else a decision to move on.

No lawsuit has been confirmed.

I’m starting to think Dorion and Bowness both keep their jobs with Andlauer bringing in a POHO and maybe a Sr Advisor.

In this scenario Dorion stays as GM but he would not have the final say in Hockey Ops decisions, he would in reality be more of an AGM, he’s already paid like an AGM.

Seriously are you related to the old GCK that used to post here?

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Wouldn't it be great if thats all there was to it. A breakdown in communication and disagreement over systems .. No lawsuit, no accusations leaked, no nothing else a decision to move on.


Seriously are you related to the old GCK that used to post here?

No one has confirmed a lawsuit… or did I miss that? Can you flip me a link?

Leaked accusations, but no formal complaints from the Mann.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

No one has confirmed a lawsuit… or did I miss that? Can you flip me a link?

Leaked accusations, but no formal complaints from the Mann.

I don't think one is confirmed just a few people speculating .. "Could be Lawsuit" .. I did not want it to come across as something definitely happening.
I made that more clear

 

[GCK]

Wouldn't it be great if thats all there was to it. A breakdown in communication and disagreement over systems .. No lawsuit, no accusations leaked, no nothing else a decision to move on.


Seriously are you related to the old GCK that used to post here?

Lol

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Anyone else keep getting logged out of HFBoards

 

[Golden_Jet]

Anyone else keep getting logged out of HFBoards

Usually happens if I’m using tabs, and switching back and forth. That’s the best I can narrow it down to for me.