Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[NyQuil]

Feels like a great idea to inject a little humanity into discussions!

Just need a few markers and a few "Hello My Name Is:" nametags.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Positivity isn't inherently better than negativity if it's less grounded in reality.

And being blindly optimistic certainly doesn't make someone a better fan, same goes for someone who is unreasonably pessimistic.

 

[JD1]

We should do another HF Sens meet at MacLaren's.

The last one involved Ray Emery fighting Marty Biron and then Andrew Peters, so it's been awhile.

I'm not afraid to disclose my positions or my perspective.

I actually think meeting people in person helps to de-escalate relationships.

I should have been more clear

It's the anonymity of social media in general. I didn't specifically mean in here.

There's a lot that's been written about it

 

[NyQuil]

It's the anonymity of social media in general. I didn't specifically mean in here.

There's a lot that's been written about it

That's clear for sure.

It's the same reason why online reviews tend to skew intensely negative.

If you're happy, you don't tend to feel the same desire to tell everyone about it as a coping measure.

 

[JD1]

Positivity isn't inherently better than negativity if it's less grounded in reality.

I think we can peacefully say we live in different realities

 

[Gil Gunderson]

That interview this morning was insane. Is he drunk on truth serum?

 

[Hale The Villain]

I think we can peacefully say we live in different realities

It's honestly shocking to me that you could disagree with that.

Using an example, I think Ridly Greig is going to be a decent 2nd liner/good 3rd liner and someone else may argue that he's the second coming of Mike Richards and is a future star.

Is the latter opinion "better" because it's more optimistic? Is the former opinion "worse" because it's more pessimistic?

I'd argue whichever opinion is more reasonable and closer to reality is the better one.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

We should do another HF Sens meet at MacLaren's.

The last one involved Ray Emery fighting Marty Biron and then Andrew Peters, so it's been awhile.

I'm not afraid to disclose my positions or my perspective.

I actually think meeting people in person helps to de-escalate relationships.

I'd be interested, but I don't live in Ottawa. Maybe one day I'll fly down there again and I can be taken to the wood shed with my terrible analysis.

That's clear for sure.

It's the same reason why online reviews tend to skew intensely negative.

If you're happy, you don't tend to feel the same desire to tell everyone about it as a coping measure.

I frequent a lot of forums and they're almost always relatively reasonable. People are motivated to be there usually for their own benefit. It's definitely the twitter, facebook comments, anonymous reviews, etc. realm where it gets really bad and people are obviously trolling.

Some people spam local businesses with awful, untrue review after review and it can really be a problem. A good buddy who owns a little food shop is fighting that right now.

 

[NyQuil]

Using an example, I think Ridly Greig is going to be a decent 2nd liner/good 3rd liner and someone else may argue that he's the second coming of Mike Richards and is a future star.

I also think Ridley Greig is going to be a decent 2nd liner/3rd liner.

That interview this morning was insane. Is he drunk on truth serum?

Maybe he's drunk on firing Trent Mann.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

It's constant negativity. And he twists things and cherry picks quotes to mislead people and to fit his agenda.

Let's see your critical analysis. Nichols publishes his. Its not a universal thing. He often makes several points.. so if you want a real discussion .. lets see how your analysis differs.

 

[JD1]

It's honestly shocking to me that you could disagree with that.

Using an example, I think Ridly Greig is going to be a decent 2nd liner/good 3rd liner and someone else may argue that he's the second coming of Mike Richards and is a future star.

Is the latter opinion "better" because it's more optimistic? Is the former opinion "worse" because it's more pessimistic?

I'd argue whichever opinion is more reasonable and closer to reality is the better one.

My apologies to you Hale. I had to re-read your initial post

I initially read it as the negativity is more grounded in reality but upon re-reading it, that isn't what you meant

 

[NyQuil]

I frequent a lot of forums and they're almost always relatively reasonable. People are motivated to be there usually for their own benefit. It's definitely the twitter, facebook comments, anonymous reviews, etc. realm where it gets really bad and people are obviously trolling.

Some people spam local businesses with awful, untrue review after review and it can really be a problem. A good buddy who owns a little food shop is fighting that right now.

Part of it is also undeniably the emotional release associated with venting. It's why I typically don't judge people for what they say in a GDT/post-GDT.

A lot of people point out that the threads for losses are usually longer than the threads for wins.

It's not really that surprising.

Some might think it's unfair, but it's not surprising.

It's hard to be objective, because when you have a pre-conceived notion about something, there's a lot of confirmation bias.

Players that I do not like as much, their gaffes and errors appear that much more apparent. Well of course, I'm looking for them, while I might gloss over the errors by my favourites. It might be conscious or unconscious.

That's where analytics and statistics can help a bit, as well as the opinions of others that I respect.

Attribution is another issue, whereby Dorion is responsible for every bad move made by the organization, but his head of scouting or development is responsible for every good player that is drafted.

Just like on the ice - is it the goalie's fault? Is it the team defence? Is it DJ Smith's "system"? There's no perfect formula to attribute success or failure.

In general though, I think if you're in a position where you think someone can never do anything wrong, or anything right, your objectivity is compromised. And I think that applies to this thread and to Mr. Pierre Dorion.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I guess we could see that coming . Railroaded Troy.. there was some hard feelings from what I understand. I liked the Mann Bros personally and think the draft - develop combo with the inherent communication was an advantage. Its the nature of the business. Both should bounce back,

Anonymity makes negativity easy

Arrogance as well

 

[Ice-Tray]

I guess I feel like support and love, if it is unconditional, has less value, because it isn't the outcome of an objective decision-making process, but rather an automatic or rote response.

I'd rather feel that kind of support from someone who isn't always supportive, because it's more meaningful.

I remember Mrs_NyQuil once told one of her colleagues to stop laying on the compliments because they had no meaning due to their frequency and in response to everything that she did.

Players will earn my appreciation by their play on the ice. Until then, I'm hopeful but watching.

Again, as I alluded to earlier, different people work differently, and I do understand why some people feel that they should start from a position of 100% support.

Ahhhh I see where you’re coming from.

I think we have different definitions of what ‘unconditional’ means. From your example it seems as though you equate it to mean not real or perfunctory in nature, where to me it means that it is given without any requirements given back from the receiver, as in there are no conditions on my expression of love for you. It’s dangerous and leaves one open for sure, but it can be argued that the rewards can be stunning.

As to your second paragraph, there is a different position to consider; that the love you give is from you, and an expression of who you are as a person, not who you are as a reaction to the other person. What someone else is willing or not willing to give shouldn’t or doesn’t control what you are willing to give, kind of thing.

The anecdote that Mrs Nyquil experienced sounds an awful lot like someone running game so to speak, saying things in order to influence a response they would like from her, rather than expressing true feelings. Saying all the things you need to say to get the girl
in the sack so to speak.

Anyways, I always find these conversations fascinating, though difficult to carry out on the internet.

 

[NyQuil]

I think we have different definitions of what ‘unconditional’ means. From your example it seems as though you equate it to mean not real or perfunctory in nature, where to me it means that it is given without any requirements given back from the receiver, as in there are no conditions on my expression of love for you. It’s dangerous and leaves one open for sure, but it can be argued that the rewards can be stunning.

That's the kind of love that I reserve for my son and immediate family.

Even my wife, it's progressed to that point, but I certainly didn't profess my unconditional love for her on our first date. It's a state of being that has built up through mutual trust and support over the years.

You may call that guarded or cautious perhaps, but I just think it's prudent and respectful.

I do put conditions on my admiration for players in the Senators line-up. The conditions aren't all the same. I don't have the same expectations for players with very different skillsets.

Or maybe it's a player whose on-ice style I don't particularly like, but as I've gotten to know the player behind the scenes, I end up admiring that aspect of their personality. Someone like Brassard has really grown on me based mainly on the snippets of his character around the rest of the team.

But that's fairly rare - for the most part, I admire them for what they bring to the ice because that's the form of entertainment I'm choosing to indulge in, and I don't have either the time, the inclination or the opportunity to get to know them as individuals.

I can't like all the Senators equally, and in some cases, I don't like them at all. I want them off the team because I feel that they are a negative influence on either the success of the team or my understanding of the chemistry of the team.

I get that there are people out there who will support everyone in a Senators uniform, but I'm not one of those people. As I said earlier, my respect is earned, as is my disregard.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Part of it is also undeniably the emotional release associated with venting. It's why I typically don't judge people for what they say in a GDT/post-GDT.

A lot of people point out that the threads for losses are usually longer than the threads for wins.

It's not really that surprising.

Some might think it's unfair, but it's not surprising.

It's hard to be objective, because when you have a pre-conceived notion about something, there's a lot of confirmation bias.

Players that I do not like as much, their gaffes and errors appear that much more apparent. Well of course, I'm looking for them, while I might gloss over the errors by my favourites.

That's where analytics and statistics can help a bit, as well as the opinions of others that I respect.

Good points. You have to give people room to be irrational. Most of us come back down to Earth eventually, but it's tough in the moment sometimes. And for sure it's going to bring more content, just like drama and controversy over smooth sailing. It is what it is really.

The bias is hard to get over isn't it. Some of my favorites over the years like Corvo and Hoffman were also the most polarizing. It was sobering to have some of their warts be demonstrated or broken down to me. What can you do though, all humans are biased in some capacity just through our conditioning. I've always been intrigued by some of the theories behind buddhism in potentially working through those. The idea that you can remove the man or the ego from man, is interesting to me. Theoretically, you can train the mind to a state of complete control to the point you control any and all emotions and feelings you may have, including grief, bias, etc.

I'll get to work on that last part.

 

[Ice-Tray]

That's the kind of love that I reserve for my son and immediate family.

Even my wife, it's progressed to that point, but I certainly didn't profess my unconditional love for her on our first date. It's a state of being that has built up through mutual trust and support over the years.

You may call that guarded or cautious perhaps, but I just think it's prudent and respectful.

I do put conditions on my admiration for players in the Senators line-up. The conditions aren't all the same. I don't have the same expectations for players with very different skillsets.

Or maybe it's a player whose on-ice style I don't particularly like, but as I've gotten to know the player behind the scenes, I end up admiring that aspect of their personality. Someone like Brassard has really grown on me based mainly on the snippets of his character around the rest of the team.

But that's fairly rare - for the most part, I admire them for what they bring to the ice because that's the form of entertainment I'm choosing to indulge in, and I don't have either the time, the inclination or the opportunity to get to know them as individuals.

I can't like all the Senators equally, and in some cases, I don't like them at all. I want them off the team because I feel that they are a negative influence on either the success of the team or my understanding of the chemistry of the team.

I get that there are people out there who will support everyone in a Senators uniform, but I'm not one of those people. As I said earlier, my respect is earned, as is my disregard.

Ask yourself this: did you feel unconditional love for her on your first date? I don’t think it’s guarded, I think it was likely not available as a shareable emotion.

Look, I’m not saying you need to voice every loving thought, there is a relationship dance to be danced, and there is romance and such to consider. But you don’t have to limit the way you allow yourself to feel, and you can happily explore your feelings before ever having to share them with another person.

As it pertains to the Sens, I don’t feel admiration for any of the players, it’s just not really how I consume sports entertainment. I enjoy the game, and can appreciate various aspects of the game. I have a lot of respect for effort and sacrifice, and for courage, as I feel those are quality traits in life, but I also enjoy watching skill on display.

I think with things like sports some folks simply prefer to dwell on the positives, and enjoy being hopeful, over focusing on the negative and not being willing to be disappointed. Everyone tends to consider the same set of information, it’s just a divergence of what to do with it.

To me it is sports entreatment, so the price of gambling my emotions is minimal to none, and dweling in the negatives of something that I engage in for fun seems to make no sense at all. I can understand that some folks simply interact differently with information, and life in general.

I don’t have everything figured out by any stretch, but I’m working at it

 

[Wondercarrot]

Sure, there are the goods and bads. Though we aren’t exactly devoid of draft picks now are we? I mean we’ve had a ton, so we’re looking Boucher who gets panties rustled, and then we have Chychrun, and then we have a downgrade from 7th oa to a later pick with some sweeteners tossed in the mix to make it feel better. We’re not actually missing much at the top end in terms of picks

As for prospects, we have a slew of middle and bottom six guys pushing and on their way, and we have a handful of D prospects on the way. We don’t have a bunch of top end guys pushing because they are already on the team, and we don’t have room in the top six or top 4 for a prospect anyways.

To me it’s just a glass half empty narrative that avoids the realities of what’s on the team, choosing instead to just look at the prospect list and mope. Wish we had more top dudes in lower leagues, but we have a team filled with great young players so there’s that small detail.

As for PD the human? Well, some folks are just ridiculous in how they judge the guy giving interviews. I always find it ironic on the internet given the stereotypes surrounding dudes who spend copious amounts of time at a computer screen, in regards to their social skills lol.

I see a guy who likes to share in these interviews, and is starting to enjoy them more. He’s even able to acknowledge and laugh at his own gaffs at times. He’s not smooth, but he is authentic.

What I think is that some people are unable to separate the difficulties of the job, with the human being having to speak about it in front of the camera. Furthermore, I think some people take team mistakes personally and are quite vengeful, which further hinders their ability to evaluate the human objectively, let alone respectfully.

Yeah sure, I guess there are all sorts of people.
For my part I’m taking him at things he has said, and done, and how he follows up those things.

There is a very good core in place much to his credit, he has also made several bad larger moves/handled the situations poorly (Duchene/Stone/AD/Murray), and IMO frittered away too many picks on players that brought very little value/never brought any in as UFA to sell off on one year deals etc.
As far as his press conferences - sure he’s enjoying himself more. Great, good for him!
Like it or not he’s the face of the org for management and part of leadership is being able to control and manage expectations along with the messaging from the team and while I do not dislike Dorion the person, I don’t especially think he helps the team on that side of things.

I’ll also add that zero of this affects me on a day to day basis - part of the fun of having the team is focusing nonsense on it and that nonsense is mostly here. It’s escapism.

 

[Icelevel]

Well I guess that’s why the coward Dorion scheduled his interview for 7:30am
Doesn’t have to answer any hard questions cause then he needs mommy and blanky to come along and there’s just no room in the studio.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Unconditional love can also suck and be pointless.

It's for simple people who don't like to think objectively. But that's just my opinion.

I thought sport is meant to be simple and mindless entertainment for the masses. It is a form of distraction.

 

[NyQuil]

I thought sport is meant to be simple and mindless entertainment for the masses. It is a form of distraction.

It can’t be completely mindless when billions of dollars are invested in it.

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

I thought sport is meant to be simple and mindless entertainment for the masses. It is a form of distraction.

Hate watching sports has been around for centuries. It's part of the entertainment. You love your team while simultaneously hating how your team is run and how they play.

I have a close friend who loves the Chicago Bears. Has his whole life. But after you talk to him about the Chicago Bears, you walk away with the impression that he absolutely hates the Chicago Bears. If you mention Matt Nagy he bursts into flames.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

It can’t be completely mindless when billions of dollars are invested in it.

I am not saying the business of. and not for the athletes and owners. for the masses

 

[Samsquanch]

We should do another HF Sens meet at MacLaren's.

The last one involved Ray Emery fighting Marty Biron and then Andrew Peters, so it's been awhile.

I'm not afraid to disclose my positions or my perspective.

I actually think meeting people in person helps to de-escalate relationships.

Man I would almost drive down from Sudbury to do that... although I'm gonna have to catch a game at the same time (maybe next night?) If possible to justify the trip.....

And I 100% agree with you on how things chill out when getting together in person. I guess I'm generally fairly "positive" in here with my takes anyways, but I know that im as guilty of being confrontational around here as anyone. But for most of what I post here - If I said the same thing irl, it would be in a friendly jousting/non confrontational tone. Certainly not looking for an actual argument where folks get legit angry...

Having said that, if this just turns into a pure Sens bashing event, it might end up going down like a good ole fashioned Donnybrook, so to speak. Not sure you 10-ply Ottawa folk could handle that.

 

[NyQuil]

I am not saying the business of. and not for the athletes and owners. for the masses

Sure, it’s entertainment, but the level of engagement will vary from person to person.

I guess I’m not sure what you mean by mindless.