Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Micklebot]

People think this reflects poorly on Dorion, and perhaps they're right. But what do you want him to do? Eventually the limitations of a small Canadian market have to be recognized.

Idk, that seems like a big red flag, we could have moved on and put more into the Chychrun train knowing he actually wanted to be here.

It seems to me recognizing limitations of a small Canadian market would mean knowing when to cut bait.

At this point everybody accepts that Ottawa isn't really a desirable UFA destination and are on the vast majority of NTC's leaguewide. So a substantial portion of the player pool is functionally unavailable to Dorion in terms of team-building. Now people want to extend that to players who are entering the final year of their contracts and won't agree to an immediate extension? What does that leave you with?

Not throwing away picks for guys that will leave a year later? The reality is we can't be taking that kind of a risk when we haven't yet gotten past one of the biggest factors wrt desirability that we actually can address: a winning product. We'll never be NYR but we can take ourselves out of the cellar by providing a winning product.

Anybody that steps into the job as GM of the Ottawa Senators will have to be willing to take risks to succeed. There is no other path. The whole idea of patiently drafting and developing becomes far less viable an ideal when you begin seeing 25 year old RFA's like Dubois and DeBrincat strong-arm their way out of places they don't want to be. Timelines are getting compressed; you can't nickel and dime your best players until they're 31 anymore.

Sure, risk taking is part of the business, but you have to mitigate those risks, you just can't be jumping without looking.

Ultimately I think Dorion's key misstep in this whole fiasco was less about the initial trade to acquire DeBrincat, and more about how he handled trading him out of Ottawa. He should have taken a page from Kyle Davidson's book. Don't let the player direct the process when you don't have to.

This ended up going down a similar path as Mark Stone. The Senators gave the player too much control under the illusion of being able to juice a trade return by virtue of having a contract extension. Didn't really work out, and in both cases the Senators ended up basically getting the rental value for the players anyway.

I don't disagree that the subsequent trades could have been handled better, he managed a bit better with Karlsson, in that case though he knew well in advance he was going to have to make the move. I also think the cap situation this year made moving DBC extra tough.

 

[NyQuil]

And sometimes we ourselves change the kind of fan we are.

As a young person, I was an unchecked optimist when it came to sports and the Senators specifically. Now I'm more jaded and realistic about the actual odds of winning anything of consequence.

As I've gotten older, I've sort of consciously decoupled the success of the team with my personal enjoyment of being simply being entertained by watching the team and engaging with other fans.

My moods used to be very closely tied to the outcome of the games. Not so much anymore.

My Dad had a part in that - he would literally be miserable if the Senators lost. I'd worry about bringing him to watch Senators games because the ride home would be terrible if they lost.

Performance of the team undoubtedly had a part in that as well. For quite a while, the Senators were always competitive. When the team fails to make the playoffs for an extended period of time, you have to find other things aside from team success to enjoy.

Going to hundreds of games in person over the years made me value the entertainment aspect a little bit more. Sure, the Senators blew a lead, but I got to see Peter Forsberg fight off two guys behind the net in the closing minute to tie it up, and that's cool!

To bring it back to Dorion, I think I have a little more tolerance for his gambles and his mistakes than some, but when it comes to his continued presence here, it's a question of performance vs. tenure, and he's been here a long time without much to show for it.

I don't think he's a bad GM, there are certainly worse out there IMO, but he's had his crack and it's time to let someone else try to make something of the assets we have.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Nothing. I want him to be replaced. He's had 7 seasons with this organization and we've missed the playoffs the last 6.

I wonder why your intention is to be so willing to ignore context. You know we had a bottom-out, scorched earth rebuild. You know most of the years we missed the playoffs intentionally to get high draft picks. Every time you post this "missed the playoffs the last 6 years" line you get people jumping down your throat to say the same f***ing thing. Are you incapable of understanding what a rebuild is? Do you disagree with the premise that you can't get high draft picks if you're not bad enough to finish near the bottom of the standings? Do you get some sort of thrill out of people responding to you forcefully? What exactly is your motivation?

 

[NyQuil]

I wonder why your intention is to be so willing to ignore context. You know we had a bottom-out, scorched earth rebuild. You know most of the years we missed the playoffs intentionally to get high draft picks. Every time you post this "missed the playoffs the last 6 years" line you get people jumping down your throat to say the same f***ing thing. Are you incapable of understanding what a rebuild is? Do you disagree with the premise that you can't get high draft picks if you're not bad enough to finish near the bottom of the standings? Do you get some sort of thrill out of people responding to you forcefully? What exactly is your motivation?

We're not the only team out there going through a rebuild.

Some have managed to do it in less time and with fewer mistakes along the way.

 

[Knave]

I wonder why your intention is to be so willing to ignore context. You know we had a bottom-out, scorched earth rebuild. You know most of the years we missed the playoffs intentionally to get high draft picks. Every time you post this "missed the playoffs the last 6 years" line you get people jumping down your throat to say the same f***ing thing. Are you incapable of understanding what a rebuild is? Do you disagree with the premise that you can't get high draft picks if you're not bad enough to finish near the bottom of the standings? Do you get some sort of thrill out of people responding to you forcefully? What exactly is your motivation?

Does Mike Milbury get context? Does Doug MacLean get context?

Did Brian Burke get context in Toronto?

 

[Loach]

You can post him all you want I just don't see the point. It's like posting Eklund. It's all garbage.

Whatever. Get out. Lmfao!

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

As I've gotten older, I've sort of consciously decoupled the success of the team with my personal enjoyment of being simply being entertained by watching the team and engaging with other fans.

My moods used to be very closely tied to the outcome of the games. Not so much anymore.

My Dad had a part in that - he would literally be miserable if the Senators lost. I'd worry about bringing him to watch Senators games because the ride home would be terrible if they lost.

Performance of the team undoubtedly had a part in that as well. For quite a while, the Senators were always competitive. When the team fails to make the playoffs for an extended period of time, you have to find other things aside from team success to enjoy.

Going to hundreds of games in person over the years made me value the entertainment aspect a little bit more. Sure, the Senators blew a lead, but I got to see Peter Forsberg fight off two guys behind the net in the closing minute to tie it up, and that's cool!

To bring it back to Dorion, I think I have a little more tolerance for his gambles and his mistakes than some, but when it comes to his continued presence here, it's a question of performance vs. tenure, and he's been here a long time without much to show for it.

I don't think he's a bad GM, there are certainly worse out there IMO, but he's had his crack and it's time to let someone else try to make something of the assets we have.

It's hard to keep riding those highs and lows isn't it. Interesting journey to get to that point for you though. I still do it sometimes, but only in championship context now and mostly basketball with the Sens in the gutter. 2017 still felt pretty crushing, but a Tuesday night? whatever.

I don't think Dorion's the worst either and some are too hard on him, but I agree he's had his chances to make his bets and many haven't paid off, and I just prefer someone new, someone fresh, from outside. We haven't externally hired a GM since Muckler, so it's mostly been the same philosophy for almost 20 years and I just want a disruption in that regard.

 

[Ice-Tray]

All well and good, and of course we all want candid thoughtful answers - we would just prefer them where the GM doesn’t sound like a silly bumbler who is always uncertain about everything.

and while he has built a good core, he has left himself devoid of picks and next wave prospects to fill holes - while also being a cap team, and has yet to make the playoffs.

So it’s possible to both like the team that has been built , while also seeing the very obvious flaws /faults in the rebuild process and the GM.

Sure, there are the goods and bads. Though we aren’t exactly devoid of draft picks now are we? I mean we’ve had a ton, so we’re looking Boucher who gets panties rustled, and then we have Chychrun, and then we have a downgrade from 7th oa to a later pick with some sweeteners tossed in the mix to make it feel better. We’re not actually missing much at the top end in terms of picks

As for prospects, we have a slew of middle and bottom six guys pushing and on their way, and we have a handful of D prospects on the way. We don’t have a bunch of top end guys pushing because they are already on the team, and we don’t have room in the top six or top 4 for a prospect anyways.

To me it’s just a glass half empty narrative that avoids the realities of what’s on the team, choosing instead to just look at the prospect list and mope. Wish we had more top dudes in lower leagues, but we have a team filled with great young players so there’s that small detail.

As for PD the human? Well, some folks are just ridiculous in how they judge the guy giving interviews. I always find it ironic on the internet given the stereotypes surrounding dudes who spend copious amounts of time at a computer screen, in regards to their social skills lol.

I see a guy who likes to share in these interviews, and is starting to enjoy them more. He’s even able to acknowledge and laugh at his own gaffs at times. He’s not smooth, but he is authentic.

What I think is that some people are unable to separate the difficulties of the job, with the human being having to speak about it in front of the camera. Furthermore, I think some people take team mistakes personally and are quite vengeful, which further hinders their ability to evaluate the human objectively, let alone respectfully.

 

[Big Muddy]

And sometimes we ourselves change the kind of fan we are.

As a young person, I was an unchecked optimist when it came to sports and the Senators specifically. Now I'm more jaded and realistic about the actual odds of winning anything of consequence.

That's an interesting point.

I've been a Senators fan since 1993. We were a bad expansion team for the first 5 years, then we made the playoffs (in 1998?) and were good for at least a decade. Attendance was good, we had players like Alfredsson, Hossa, Heatley, Spezza, Chara & Redden, and we even did additions like Smolinsky and Hasek. I was an enthusiastic fan as I think most fans were. At least it seemed that way.

But, then things seemed to change. We kept trading away our best players every time they were up for their big contract. I think the optimism started to fade with all that was happening.

I'd just like to get back to the way things were. I keep hoping that will happen even though I'm more pessimistic than I was. I still feel like there's that optimistic fan in me deep down that can emerge.

 

[Ice-Tray]

You don't like his narrative, but the way he crafts his is no different than how someone like a SensChirp does it in the relentless pursuit of providing an optimistic take. Nothing wrong with either. Room on the spectrum for opinions of all slants.

I think there is a problem with constant, and often manufactured, negativity.

Simplistically, hating and loving aren’t just to equal but opposite sides of the coin. One actually sucks and is pointless.

 

[NyQuil]

Simplistically, hating and loving aren’t just to equal but opposite sides of the coin. One actually sucks and is pointless.

Unconditional love can also suck and be pointless.

It's for simple people who don't like to think objectively. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Knave]

Sure, there are the goods and bads. Though we aren’t exactly devoid of draft picks now are we? I mean we’ve had a ton, so we’re looking Boucher who gets panties rustled, and then we have Chychrun, and then we have a downgrade from 7th oa to a later pick with some sweeteners tossed in the mix to make it feel better. We’re not actually missing much at the top end in terms of picks

It's interesting to see people up in arms defending Dorion because of bad lottery luck but going from a 7th overall to 20 or lower is no big deal.

I agree, lottery picks are a big deal and we've had unfortunate luck... which is why trading one of them away for a potential top 6 winger who has now walked away was such a poor outcome. And if it was one mistake I could leave it at that. But it's a pattern with Dorion when it comes to trades and UFAs.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Unconditional love can also suck and be pointless.

It's for simple people who don't like to think objectively. But that's just my opinion.

Disagree completely. If you thinks that’s true, you’re just not doing it properly.

It’s always the lot of the negative to have to make excuses for the existence of positive folks.

I mean you have to. How else can one explain being a miserable shit while other people look so damn happy. It all about being awesomely ‘objective’ and ’realistic’; seeing things for what they really are.

Those poor dopey happy fools!

Hehe

 

[NyQuil]

Disagree completely. If you thinks that’s true, you’re just not doing it properly.

It’s always the lot of the negative to have to make excuses for the existence of positive folks.

I mean you have to. How else can one explain being a miserable shit while other people look so damn happy. It all about being awesomely ‘objective’ and ’realistic’; seeing things for what they really are.

Those poor dopey happy fools!

Hehe

You're conflating disagreeing with a decision or a current pathway and being miserable.

They aren't the same thing.

Leaf Nation has a lot of positivity and unconditional love and it makes them annoying to deal with.

Every player that arrives is God and as soon as they leave they it turns out they were utter crap all along. They're doing that with Dubas right now, like they did with Babcock, like they've done with everyone.

Ultimately the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

That's an interesting point.

I've been a Senators fan since 1993. We were a bad expansion team for the first 5 years, then we made the playoffs (in 1998?) and were good for at least a decade. Attendance was good, we had players like Alfredsson, Hossa, Heatley, Spezza, Chara & Redden, and we even did additions like Smolinsky and Hasek. I was an enthusiastic fan as I think most fans were. At least is seemed that way.

But, then things seemed to change. We kept trading away our best players every time they were up for their big contract. I think the optimism started to fade with all that was happening.

I'd just like to get back to the way things were. I keeping hoping that will happen even though I'm more pessimistic than I was. I still feel like there's that optimistic fan in me deep down that can emerge.

Ya they kind of lost their way with the savvy budget operation. Part of that was running thin on young, cheap assets at the end of Muckler's tenure, but also what you elude to.

Unconditional love can also suck and be pointless.

It's for simple people who don't like to think objectively. But that's just my opinion.

Well put. I did enough of that as a kid, but if the team isn't being run in a way that gives me confidence, I can't pretend otherwise. Doesn't mean I'm right, but it also means I have a harder time rah rahing blindly.

 

[swiftwin]

And sometimes we ourselves change the kind of fan we are.

As a young person, I was an unchecked optimist when it came to sports and the Senators specifically. Now I'm more jaded and realistic about the actual odds of winning anything of consequence.

Yup. Same here. Some fans suffer from "main character syndrome" and think the GM needs to bat a 1.000 all the time. The reality is there are 31 other teams and 31 other GMs, and this is more or less a zero sum game. The negative folk and the narcissists will always nitpick things to scrutinize.

I'm more realistic and jaded. I accept that the likelihood of the team winning a Stanley Cup is low in a 32 team league. All I want is to see is a solid group of players I can rally behind, and that are always trending in the right direction. That's what Dorion has done, so I'm content.

 

[Ice-Tray]

You're conflating disagreeing with a decision or a current pathway and being miserable.

They aren't the same thing.

Leaf Nation has a lot of positivity and unconditional love and it makes them annoying to deal with.

Every player that arrives is God and as soon as they leave they it turns out they were utter crap all along. They're doing that with Dubas right now, like they did with Babcock, like they've done with everyone.

Ultimately the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

That’s not really what I’m doing at all though. I’m applying life experience to a very simple statement for the sake of a brief and simple back and forth. I’m not talking about a single decision at all, I’m talking about a pattern of responses.

I personally don’t find fans who are stoked and hopeful with every new player and prospect as annoying at all.

I find it a lot more emotionally brave than the ‘realistic’ fan who is constantly hedging their emotional bets because they don’t want to get their feelings hurt. Wanting to skip all the down and have only the ups. They claim they are rational, but it’s an avoidance strategy.

But even that’s not enough for many. To do it effectively they also seem to have to work over time to crush everyone else’s hopes around them…

It is what it is, different strokes and such.

Ya they kind of lost their way with the savvy budget operation. Part of that was running thin on young, cheap assets at the end of Muckler's tenure, but also what you elude to.

Well put. I did enough of that as a kid, but if the team isn't being run in a way that gives me confidence, I can't pretend otherwise. Doesn't mean I'm right, but it also means I have a harder time rah rahing blindly.

I don’t think anyone ‘rah rahs’ blindly in here. That’s just more excuse making for why others can be more positive about the team with the same information available.

 

[Big Muddy]

You're conflating disagreeing with a decision or a current pathway and being miserable.

They aren't the same thing.

Leaf Nation has a lot of positivity and unconditional love and it makes them annoying to deal with.

Every player that arrives is God and as soon as they leave they it turns out they were utter crap all along. They're doing that with Dubas right now, like they did with Babcock, like they've done with everyone.

Ultimately the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

LOL. So true. I liked the bit about the Leaf fans.

 

[NyQuil]

That’s not really what I’m doing at all though. I’m applying life experience to a very simple statement for the sake of a brief and simple back and forth. I’m not talking about a single decision at all, I’m talking about a pattern of responses.

I personally don’t find fans who are stoked and hopeful with every new player and prospect as annoying at all.

I find it a lot more emotionally brave than the ‘realistic’ fan who is constantly hedging their emotional bets because they don’t want to get their feelings hurt. Want to skip all the down and have only the ups.

I guess I feel like support and love, if it is unconditional, has less value, because it isn't the outcome of an objective decision-making process, but rather an automatic or rote response.

I'd rather feel that kind of support from someone who isn't always supportive, because it's more meaningful.

I remember Mrs_NyQuil once told one of her colleagues to stop laying on the compliments because they had no meaning due to their frequency and in response to everything that she did.

Players will earn my appreciation by their play on the ice. Until then, I'm hopeful but watching.

Again, as I alluded to earlier, different people work differently, and I do understand why some people feel that they should start from a position of 100% support.

 

[JD1]

Anonymity makes negativity easy

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Yup. Same here. Some fans suffer from "main character syndrome" and think the GM needs to bat a 1.000 all the time. The reality is there are 31 other teams and 31 other GMs, and this is more or less a zero sum game. The negative folk and the narcissists will always nitpick things to scrutinize.

I'm more realistic and jaded. I accept that the likelihood of the team winning a Stanley Cup is low in a 32 team league. All I want is to see is a solid group of players I can rally behind, and that are always trending in the right direction. That's what Dorion has done, so I'm content.

Without getting in to specifics about Dorion's performance and my own opinion, certainly it's good to be realistic with what they can/can't do. Basketball is a good lesson for this with how restrictive their salary cap rules are, but you still get dummies that just scream about so and so being a dummy for not bringing in a high salaried player.

That’s not really what I’m doing at all though. I’m applying life experience to a very simple statement for the sake of a brief and simple back and forth. I’m not talking about a single decision at all, I’m talking about a pattern of responses.

I personally don’t find fans who are stoked and hopeful with every new player and prospect as annoying at all.

I find it a lot more emotionally brave than the ‘realistic’ fan who is constantly hedging their emotional bets because they don’t want to get their feelings hurt. Wanting to skip all the down and have only the ups. They claim they are rational, but it’s an avoidance strategy.

But to do that they also seem to have to work over time to crush everyone else’s hopes around them…

It is what it is, different strokes and such.


I don’t think anyone ‘rah rahs’ blindly in here. That’s just more excuse making for why others can be more positive about the team with the same information available.

You're free to feel however you like and cheer on however you like. I disagree with much of this, but I also want people like you to enjoy it however you need to.

 

[aragorn]

When you have been in here as long as a good number of us you have won some arguements & lost some arguement. Players you thought were going to be great dissapointed you & guys you thought were were not going to make it did.

It happens all the time, but in the end we just want this team to be successful, unfortunatley they seem to be climbing the hill backwards at times which will take longer & be so much harder. They aren't just shooting themselves in the foot, they are shooting both feet & if you are close enough they'll shoot your feet off too. And then they surprise you & do something really well, c'est la vie.

 

[stempniaksen]

Anonymity makes negativity easy

It makes both blind optimism and outright negativity easy for sure.

Funny this whole topic started with someone who posts using his name though

 

[NyQuil]

Anonymity makes negativity easy

We should do another HF Sens meet at MacLaren's.

The last one involved Ray Emery fighting Marty Biron and then Andrew Peters, so it's been awhile.

I'm not afraid to disclose my positions or my perspective.

I actually think meeting people in person helps to de-escalate relationships.

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

We should do another HF Sens meet at MacLaren's.

The last one involved Ray Emery fighting Marty Biron and then Andrew Peters, so it's been awhile.

I'm not afraid to disclose my positions or my perspective.

I actually think meeting people in person helps to de-escalate relationships with other people.

Feels like a great idea to inject a little humanity into discussions!